Calvinism?

[Jane_Doe22]

Well, I think, I would ask you this: do we see a choice in the garden of Eden? It seems to me that we do. God gave Adam and Eve a choice...to eat in disobedience or not to in obedience. We know what they chose.
But this is where God's amazing ability to work his purposes in a dual way occurs, and we see it all throughout scripture. While creating perfection and desiring humanity not to sin, he still planned for his glory to be shown when they did. Likewise in many of the OT prophecies we see God announcing judgement on a city or people, but when they make the choice to repent, he does not bring that prophecy to pass.
So, as confusing at it may be, I believe that when it comes to God...a being so far beyond our comprehension and power, yes we have the choice, but also he steers the outcome. But we must not see that as God "forcing" us. Remember, the way God redeemed mankind was to send his Son to take our place. With the love the act displayed, it cannot be many people who reject the offer once they fully understand it.

So essentially you believe every person's choice is manipulated? And we should just be okay with that? (I bolded the specific part that gives me that impression).

Thanks for clearing that up. That's interesting...in my version (ESV), that verse reads " God shows no partiality but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him "
Which would seem to change the meaning of that verse significantly, wouldn't you say? Rather than meaning "God does as he pleases to anyone he pleases" it more means that regardless of nationality, if one comes to him, he will accept them.

I quoted KJV, my default.
And I read it about how God wants ALL men to come to Him, not just some.

 

[Dave L]

It just seems like you have to be a contortionist to wrest these few scriptures to the detriment of so many other very clear scripture, and as I stated in the OP "my beliefs on the subject of Calvinism are firmly cemented." And, will most likely than not, stay there. Unless or until God can, through my own study or through another Christian, show me any different I don't think you can. You are welcome to try if that is what you desire. I have read/heard all of the arguments presented on this and other forums.

First off, I'm not a Calvinist. I'm a student of the bible. So what I say originates in my own studies. You can reject Calvinism, but what I say stands on its own. Faith is an attribute of those whom God saves. It is not a condition the self-righteous meet in the flesh to save themselves. It's that simple.

 

[Nancy]

First off, I'm not a Calvinist. I'm a student of the bible. So what I say originates in my own studies. You can reject Calvinism, but what I say stands on its own. Faith is an attribute of those whom God saves. It is not a condition the self-righteous meet in the flesh to save themselves. It's that simple.

Just imagine myself writing to you what you wrote me. I guess we are at a deadlock.

 

[Nancy]

So essentially you believe every person's choice is manipulated? And we should just be okay with that? (I bolded the specific part that gives me that impression).

I quoted KJV, my default.
And I read it about how God wants ALL men to come to Him, not just some.

RE: Your bolded text- "but also he steers the outcome. But we must not see that as God "forcing" us." I also took a bit of issue with this but "liked" Naomi's post as I did agree with pretty much the rest of it. And, I do not see any other way OF looking at this statement. BUT being forced. Unless, of course, @Naomi25 is speaking about those who DO choose evil over God are possibly being "used" to serve His purposes? Dunno.

 

[LC627]

RE: Your bolded text- "but also he steers the outcome. But we must not see that as God "forcing" us." I also took a bit of issue with this but "liked" Naomi's post as I did agree with pretty much the rest of it. And, I do not see any other way OF looking at this statement. BUT being forced. Unless, of course, @Naomi25 is speaking about those who DO choose evil over God are possibly being "used" to serve His purposes? Dunno.

So it's ok to you if God overrides some peoples "free" will? If that is the persons choice then shouldn't God respect it? We all choose evil over God before being born again.

 

[Dave L]

Just imagine myself writing to you what you wrote me. I guess we are at a deadlock.

Grace is not grace if you contributed anything to your salvation. In that case it is salvation by works. God only receives full glory in salvation if we do not claim some of it for ourselves by choosing to comply with him.

 

[Nancy]

Grace is not grace if you contributed anything to your salvation. In that case it is salvation by works. God only receives full glory in salvation if we do not claim some of it for ourselves by choosing to comply with him.

It's called believing and "receiving" a free gift. Is that work to you??

 

[Nancy]

So it's ok to you if God overrides some peoples "free" will? If that is the persons choice then shouldn't God respect it? We all choose evil over God before being born again.

Who said God overrode this persons will?? This person CHOSE to serve Satan rather than God, so of course God uses that persons choice within His plan. He knew most would not accept His ways. The road is narrow. He uses our situations to make all things to the good.

 

[Dave L]

It's called believing and "receiving" a free gift. Is that work to you??

But the gift is the believing, not the receiving.

 

[Enoch111]

But the gift is the believing, not the receiving.

The gift is SALVATION (ETERNAL LIFE).

One receives that gift by believing the Gospel and obeying it. So the gift is definitely not "believing".

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

Why do you continue to DISTORT Gospel truth and Bible truth?

 

[Episkopos]

The gift is SALVATION (ETERNAL LIFE).

One receives that gift by believing the Gospel and obeying it. So the gift is definitely not "believing".

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

Why do you continue to DISTORT Gospel truth and Bible truth?

Eternal life is a KIND of life that one enters into by putting on Christ. You have time mixed up....now and the future judgment.

For the righteous...that life is in the future...as in "come you righteous and inherit life. "

But the saint enters into eternal life by believing into Jesus...and walking in the realm of the Spirit.

So you are confusing the 2 scenarios in order to deny both.

Nobody inherits life until the end. But people can enter into life NOW! ...by walking in Zion in the light WITH the Lord.

The bible calls this...walking IN the Spirit.

 

[LC627]

Who said God overrode this persons will?? This person CHOSE to serve Satan rather than God, so of course God uses that persons choice within His plan. He knew most would not accept His ways. The road is narrow. He uses our situations to make all things to the good.

Did John the Baptist choose his life work or was it God?

 

[Enoch111]

Eternal life is a KIND of life that one enters into by putting on Christ. You have time mixed up....now and the future judgment.

I have nothing mixed up. SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [PRESENT TENSE] everlasting life. (John 3:16)

He that believeth on him is not condemned:[PRESENT TENSE] but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

He that believeth on the Son hath [PRESENT TENSE] everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

So salvation is the Christian's present possession. And there are scores of verses that make this crystal clear.

However, it looks from your posts that you are inventing your own theology, and constantly attempting to confuse people. And anyone who sows spiritual confusion is not working for Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

Did John the Baptist choose his life work or was it God?

God chooses His servants. No question.

But that does not translate into God choosing some humans for salvation and others for damnation. That would violate both the character of God as well as the Gospel.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Does this sound like God choosing some for salvation? Five Point Calvinism is FALSE DOCTRINE. Give it up.

 

[LC627]

@Nancy
1 John 5:14-15 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us-whatever we ask-we know that we have what we asked of him.

Since you state it is the will of God for all to be saved, when you pray for someone to have God bring them to repentance and they never repent, how do you reason with that in light of the scripture above? If it was God's will then it would have to happen. The hard reality is that there are things that we desire that are not in His will.

 

[LC627]

God chooses His servants. No question.

But that does not translate into God choosing some humans for salvation and others for damnation. That would violate both the character of God as well as the Gospel.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Does this sound like God choosing some for salvation? Five Point Calvinism is FALSE DOCTRINE. Give it up.

But wait...if God choose then where is their choice in that?
I'm sorry but I won't give it up, if you don't like the thread then you are the one who can leave. We are simply discussing

 

[Nancy]

Did John the Baptist choose his life work or was it God?

I have never once denied that God does not "choose" certain people for fulfillment of scripture! Even Jesus "chose" to obey God. Abraham "chose" to believe God and his faith was accounted as righteousness. Any and every person who has ever heard the Gospel has either chosen to serve God or not. This does not AT ALL interfere or deny God Almighty's sovereignty, to me it highlights His grace and mercy to all who Love Him and The Holy Spirit was sent to show man their need for Jesus sacrifice as no man can fulfill the law. This back and forth is getting kind of silly IMO. Neither of us will change the others mind as we have both heard both sides over and over again. We have debated, and we hear nothing new, therefore, I stand firm, as do you in my beliefs.

 

[Episkopos]

I have nothing mixed up. SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [PRESENT TENSE] everlasting life. (John 3:16)

He that believeth on him is not condemned:[PRESENT TENSE] but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

He that believeth on the Son hath [PRESENT TENSE] everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

So salvation is the Christian's present possession. And there are scores of verses that make this crystal clear.

However, it looks from your posts that you are inventing your own theology, and constantly attempting to confuse people. And anyone who sows spiritual confusion is not working for Christ.

So why are you trying to teach...if it is as you say?

Have you ever walked in resurrection power?

 

[Enoch111]

I'm sorry but I won't give it up...

Sadly, that is to be expected (in most cases). Calvinism brainwashes Christians to the point that they cannot even understand plain Scriptures refuting their doctrines.

 

[LC627]

I have never once denied that God does not "choose" certain people for fulfillment of scripture! Even Jesus "chose" to obey God. Abraham "chose" to believe God and his faith was accounted as righteousness. Any and every person who has ever heard the Gospel has either chosen to serve God or not. This does not AT ALL interfere or deny God Almighty's sovereignty, to me it highlights His grace and mercy to all who Love Him and The Holy Spirit was sent to show man their need for Jesus sacrifice as no man can fulfill the law. This back and forth is getting kind of silly IMO. Neither of us will change the others mind as we have both heard both sides over and over again. We have debated, and we hear nothing new, therefore, I stand firm, as do you in my beliefs.

You guys state that God will choose certain people but yet they're maintaining free will...What if John said no? Could he have?