The Problem With The Trinity

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bbyrd009

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As far as I know, YHWH told all His children to not eat certain flesh.
try reading the other half of the Bible gadar
This law is primarily concerning caring for His ministers.
now you're telling me lol, ok ty
Another false accusation with no quotes from me to back it up.
if you keep choosing denial after several ppl have pointed this out to you that is fine with me.
i am not inclined to point out more things for you to ignore ok.
best of luck to you
 

justbyfaith

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You presume and imagine.

1) I said;

"Man in the OT did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus or confess belief in Him, to become saved."

Well? Did they? No. The Name Jesus had not been revealed to them!

2) I said;

'Men in the OT revealed their belief and faithfulness to God, by and through obedience to the law."

Did the following facts need to be said?

God is the one who gives a man faith.
God knows all things.
God knows a mans heart.
God knows a mans actions/works.

How did OT men reveal (show their fruit, let other men know ) IF they believed IN God, were being faithful TO God?

How? By and through obedience to the law.

When men in the OT, were not being obediennt to the law....then what?

Another man would declare that man was SINNING.

How was SINNING determined in the OT?

Obedience TO the law or lack of obedience TO the law.

So, IF an accusation was made, that a man was SINNING, then what?

The accuser, and the one accused would go to the priest, and the priest would hear both the accuser and the accused and determine IF the man SINNED.

If it was determined the man SINNED, then what?

The priest would use the law, the law of curses, (punishments), and pronounce the judgement against the accused.

And whatever the Curse (judgement) law required of the accused would be carried out.

The LAW, did not justify a man.
The LAW, did not give a man faith.

Nor did I say that the LAW did either of those things.

You should have recognized that....
And you should have been assured, I was not saying that....by the following.

Post # 981, I quoted your comment, and responded.

You said;



I said;

Sure. I did not say otherwise.



There is ONLY ONE WAY to be Saved.
It is ALWAYS "by and through" the "word of God"

OT men "KNEW" "the word of God"
By and Through; (in brief)
Hearing, Visions, Receiving Faith from God, Teachers, (ie more hearing), Experiencing the results of Following the word of God, and some by Reading the word of God.
Reading? WHAT?
Hearing? WHAT?

What they "heard and read" was called WHAT? ..... the LAW.

What God wanted them to KNOW, was written in Their "books/scrolls/writings" was the LAW, and was what God was requiring for them to KNOW and OBEY...WHY?

For men to establish a harmonious and acceptable relationship ...
Between a man and God
And
Between man and man.

As the Hebrews / Jews moved farther and farther apart; Copies of the LAW were made for the Hebrews/Jews to keep and teach to younger generations, the same LAWS.

As the Hebrews / Jews continued spreading out to different lands, Many became Influenced by Gentile Ways, (ideas, customs, traditions, etc. and also subjection to Gentile Civil Laws).

The Gentiles, were NOT given Gods Laws.
The Gentiles, were NOT considering His word.
The Gentiles, were NOT considering establishing a relationship with God...
Nor considering establishing relationships with other men, according to Gods precepts.

When the Lord God, sent forth out from Him, His word, IN the FLESH, in the likeness AS a man...... Gods own word, was revealed; His Word in the Flesh, that God Himself called;
Jesus, called His Son, called God with mankind.

Jesus Himself selected Jewish men, to hear Him speak, (His Doctrine) and learn from Him; Gods Truth, and Learn mysteries that HAD been KEPT SECRET from OT men....

And such selected Jewish men carried on Jesus' teachings. In droves, the Gentiles have overwhelmingly accepted "the word of God in print, via hearing, and His Word in the Flesh".

Fewer Jewish men have accepted "the Word of God in the Flesh, ie the Lord Jesus".

OT men had the LAW, as their Uniform guide, of Gods written word, of HOW TO become acceptable to God.

THAT ^ has not overwhelmingly changed....pertaining to the Jews.

Jesus did not destroy the law.

What overwhelmingly has changed....pertains to the Gentiles, being introduced to the "word of God" and belief, the Word of God was revealed to the world, IN the Flesh.

Jews who continue Under the Law, DO SO, as DID their forefathers, whose SALVATION was given them, AFTER they had LIVED their natural lives IN belief IN God and HIS word.

Any man who "was under the Law'; who "was not under the Law"; WHO truthfully in their Heart Confess Belief, IN God, IN Christ Jesus,
(Ie Gods Word), receive their SALVATION, IMMEDIATELY.

For any man to Truly Believe, he does so, by the Faith given him, by and through God.

So is there ONLY ONE WAY for "any" man to receive SALVATION? Yes.
ONLY by the mans true belief, IN God, IN His word.

And the KEY, to a mystery, IS:
Salvation is offered to mankind.
Salvation is not forced on any man.
Some men receive their Salvation at the end of their natural lives.
Some men receive their Salvation during their natural lives.


If you did not understand what I SAID...
You could have asked....instead of making accusations....

The Scriptures are for ALL men. Jews and Gentiles. But you should know Which passages applies to YOU, to an Atheist, to a follower who is not converted, to a follower who is converted, to a Jew who remains under the Law.

Glory to God,
Taken
My response to "my understanding" of what you just wrote is the following (in Romans chapters 9 and 10):

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbllingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth in him shall not be ashamed.

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Now maybe I misunderstood you yet again; but if I didn't then I feel that this scripture adequately answers what I feel you "might have been saying."

Now if anyone went to the trouble of reading all that you wrote, I have to believe that they will go to the trouble of reading the scripture that is, impaho, its refutation.

I know that most people have an aversion to reading verses quoted from the Bible and prefer to read words that are spoken by a human being in exposition of the Bible. People want to hear what the person has to say apart from the Bible being quoted.

However, I believe that if anyone wants to know how the Bible refutes the implications your statements, they will think on the scriptures leveled above until they understand the reality.

Because it appears to me that you are being subtle.
 
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Dave L

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i srsly doubt it ok Dave,
"Our word church comes from the Greek word κυριος (kurios), which means mister or sir..." etc

any number of resources could explain why kurios is used there, and i don't want to bias you unfavorably until then
But always used of YHWH in the Lxx and Jesus in the NT.
 

Taken

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Now maybe I misunderstood you yet again; but if I didn't then I feel that this scripture adequately answers what I feel you "might have been saying."

There is general speech between two people;
One speaking, one Listening.

When I am the one speaking and you the listener, and your response is essentially;

"People are not justified by the Law"...

It is quite obvious you did not understand what I said.

It is obvious, because I said nothing of the sort. In fact I had not even mentioned "justification"/ "justify".

Regarding Scripture, of what man Understands...

You plainly said there was something you never Understood.
By the things you said about the topic;
I agreed with you; that you did not Understand.

Regarding Scripture; I have been clear of my stance....that Scripture IS the word of God, IS true, reveals Knowledge, and often does not reveal the Understanding of the Knowledge.

I have been clear of my stance;
The Understanding of Scriptural Knowledge IS revealed to individuals, BY God Himself.

Luke 2:47
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

Matt 16:17
....for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:7
....the lord give thee understanding in all things.

Now if anyone went to the trouble of reading all that you wrote, I have to believe that they will go to the trouble of reading the scripture that is, impaho, its refutation.

Now If you want to know WHAT I mean, by my words, ask me.

Now If you want know WHAT God means, by His words, ask Him.

I know that most people have an aversion to reading verses quoted from the Bible and prefer to read words that are spoken by a human being in exposition of the Bible. People want to hear what the person has to say apart from the Bible being quoted.

You quoting me scriptures ABOUT understanding is not the point.

Much IS said in scripture about:

1) First Hearing and learning the Word of God.

2) Secondly Learning WHAT the Word of God MEANS, "according To Gods Understanding of His own words"....and that mans understanding of His word, is but foolishness.

3) Also scripture itself reveals Gods desire for men TO seek "His Understanding" of His Word.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

justbyfaith

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@Taken,

I will not attempt to understand what you are trying to say by what your sentences imply; but I will respond according to what I think you might be saying by what I perceive that you are implying with your statements.

In Galatians 2:16 it is written, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

And in Romans 3:20 it says, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I am going by the common understanding that justification means salvation and salvation means justification.

Therefore these verses are saying that our salvation does not come about through our keeping of the law.

Agree or disagree?
 
B

brakelite

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Historically speaking it has always been the observers of Sunday who persecuted and strived against Sabbath keepers. From the first inception of Sunday into Christian practice and church law, Sabbath keepers were the ones who were condemned and killed because they differed from the accepted orthodoxy. Even as late as early American colonialism the blue laws were designed to uphold so called righteousne ss at the expense of freedom of conscience. In attempting to exalt thee law of God, and show how the Bible itself reveals that those who do not succumb to receiving the mark of the beast because they keep all of God's commandments,,I am simply pre-empting any future attacks on my freedom of conscience. The Bible shows us how worship is the focus of attention in future persecutions against Christians. How we worship, who we worship, and when we worship, have all been focal points in the war against Sabbath keepers throughout the centuries.
My concern is that you are revealing to us all whose side you would take in this war. Right now at this point in history, you may deny such an idea as absurd, but in the future, when the traditions of men are being upheld as the global religion of the day and the choice for you is eat or not to eat....
 

Taken

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@Taken,

I will not attempt to understand what you are trying to say by what your sentences imply; but I will respond according to what I think you might be saying by what I perceive that you are implying with your statements.

In Galatians 2:16 it is written, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

And in Romans 3:20 it says, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I am going by the common understanding that justification means salvation and salvation means justification.

I believe justification is speaking of justification
And
Salvation is speaking of Salvation.

No, I do not believe justification means salvation.

Salvation is the restoring of the soul.
Bodies are not "saved". They die, they rot.

As I have said before there is an ORDER.
One thing accomplished, leads to the next thing accomplished and so on.

Once the ORDER of things Are accomplished,
Then the results are the man IS become certain things. One of those things is the man is "justified".

Therefore these verses are saying that our salvation does not come about through our keeping of the law.

"Our salvation"?
"Our keeping of the law" ?

You seem to imply you are speaking of the same people....in both "ours".

I am not a Jew. Are you?

Why would Keeping Mosaic Law be something for you to even consider, for any reason?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

justbyfaith

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Justification is a major aspect of salvation and if any man is justified, he is also saved.

Agree or disagree?
 
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gadar perets

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It is the NIV translation...which translation do you use?
The NIV is not a translation, but a paraphrase. I use the KJV most of the time unless I come across a clear error such as Romans 14:14. Then I go to the Greek or to other verses to determine the meaning.
 

gadar perets

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But always used of YHWH in the Lxx and Jesus in the NT.
Kurios is falsely used of YHWH in the LXX. It is also a title that the Father and Son share. That does not make Yeshua YHWH any more than Yeshua and Cyrus sharing the title "maschiach" makes Cyrus Yeshua.
 

Taken

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Justification is a major aspect of salvation

"Major aspect" ?

I already gave my view, that things have an order.

and if any man is justified, he is also saved.

Agree or disagree?

No, I do not agree with your words.

Men are "justified" by belief in their hearts, in Christ Jesus.

Plenty of men believe in their hearts, in Christ Jesus.....and do not Confess their belief.

Once a man makes A Confession of belief, in Christ Jesus,
THEN, that man receives "salvation".

You are so intent on ignoring the order and instead trying to make separate words mean the same thing. I believe a man should Learn the Order and what each step of the Order means.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

djstav

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You believe you all have the spirit of God, right? Well the spirit won't all tell you different thing's. Maybe it will tell you that you're all wasting time on the trivial matters of religion.

That is what the spirit tells me, so who is right or wrong overall.
 
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Heart2Soul

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You believe you all have the spirit of God, right? Well the spirit won't all tell you different thing's. Maybe it will tell you that you're all wasting time on the trivial matters of religion.

That is what the spirit tells me, so who is right or wrong overall.
Well there are different spirits......the Bible says to test the spirit to know if it is of God.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
 

farouk

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So test the spirits then, how is that done?

I wonder if there are any real Christian's left that know how everything works.
We need to measure everything by God's Word. John's Gospel, John's First Epistle, Romans 8, the end of Matthew 28, etc. have strong, Biblical evidence for God in Three Persons.
 
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djstav

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Verifying according to Scripture.

Glory to God,
Taken
So if Christian's are doing this:

*[[2Co 12:20]] KJV*
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Then does that mean they are unspiritual?