The Problem With The Trinity

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Taken

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Specifically I would point out these statements:

These statements put together imply that justification was through law-keeping (and not by faith) in the OT and that therefore it can be the same in the new. This is false doctrine.

You presume and imagine.

1) I said;

"Man in the OT did not call on the name of the Lord Jesus or confess belief in Him, to become saved."

Well? Did they? No. The Name Jesus had not been revealed to them!

2) I said;

'Men in the OT revealed their belief and faithfulness to God, by and through obedience to the law."

Did the following facts need to be said?

God is the one who gives a man faith.
God knows all things.
God knows a mans heart.
God knows a mans actions/works.

How did OT men reveal (show their fruit, let other men know ) IF they believed IN God, were being faithful TO God?

How? By and through obedience to the law.

When men in the OT, were not being obediennt to the law....then what?

Another man would declare that man was SINNING.

How was SINNING determined in the OT?

Obedience TO the law or lack of obedience TO the law.

So, IF an accusation was made, that a man was SINNING, then what?

The accuser, and the one accused would go to the priest, and the priest would hear both the accuser and the accused and determine IF the man SINNED.

If it was determined the man SINNED, then what?

The priest would use the law, the law of curses, (punishments), and pronounce the judgement against the accused.

And whatever the Curse (judgement) law required of the accused would be carried out.

The LAW, did not justify a man.
The LAW, did not give a man faith.

Nor did I say that the LAW did either of those things.

You should have recognized that....
And you should have been assured, I was not saying that....by the following.

Post # 981, I quoted your comment, and responded.

You said;

In the OT, people were justified by faith, just like in the new.

I said;

Sure. I did not say otherwise.

You attempt to show by your statements that there is another way to be saved, the OT way:

There is ONLY ONE WAY to be Saved.
It is ALWAYS "by and through" the "word of God"

OT men "KNEW" "the word of God"
By and Through; (in brief)
Hearing, Visions, Receiving Faith from God, Teachers, (ie more hearing), Experiencing the results of Following the word of God, and some by Reading the word of God.
Reading? WHAT?
Hearing? WHAT?

What they "heard and read" was called WHAT? ..... the LAW.

What God wanted them to KNOW, was written in Their "books/scrolls/writings" was the LAW, and was what God was requiring for them to KNOW and OBEY...WHY?

For men to establish a harmonious and acceptable relationship ...
Between a man and God
And
Between man and man.

As the Hebrews / Jews moved farther and farther apart; Copies of the LAW were made for the Hebrews/Jews to keep and teach to younger generations, the same LAWS.

As the Hebrews / Jews continued spreading out to different lands, Many became Influenced by Gentile Ways, (ideas, customs, traditions, etc. and also subjection to Gentile Civil Laws).

The Gentiles, were NOT given Gods Laws.
The Gentiles, were NOT considering His word.
The Gentiles, were NOT considering establishing a relationship with God...
Nor considering establishing relationships with other men, according to Gods precepts.

When the Lord God, sent forth out from Him, His word, IN the FLESH, in the likeness AS a man...... Gods own word, was revealed; His Word in the Flesh, that God Himself called;
Jesus, called His Son, called God with mankind.

Jesus Himself selected Jewish men, to hear Him speak, (His Doctrine) and learn from Him; Gods Truth, and Learn mysteries that HAD been KEPT SECRET from OT men....

And such selected Jewish men carried on Jesus' teachings. In droves, the Gentiles have overwhelmingly accepted "the word of God in print, via hearing, and His Word in the Flesh".

Fewer Jewish men have accepted "the Word of God in the Flesh, ie the Lord Jesus".

OT men had the LAW, as their Uniform guide, of Gods written word, of HOW TO become acceptable to God.

THAT ^ has not overwhelmingly changed....pertaining to the Jews.

Jesus did not destroy the law.

What overwhelmingly has changed....pertains to the Gentiles, being introduced to the "word of God" and belief, the Word of God was revealed to the world, IN the Flesh.

Jews who continue Under the Law, DO SO, as DID their forefathers, whose SALVATION was given them, AFTER they had LIVED their natural lives IN belief IN God and HIS word.

Any man who "was under the Law'; who "was not under the Law"; WHO truthfully in their Heart Confess Belief, IN God, IN Christ Jesus,
(Ie Gods Word), receive their SALVATION, IMMEDIATELY.

For any man to Truly Believe, he does so, by the Faith given him, by and through God.

So is there ONLY ONE WAY for "any" man to receive SALVATION? Yes.
ONLY by the mans true belief, IN God, IN His word.

And the KEY, to a mystery, IS:
Salvation is offered to mankind.
Salvation is not forced on any man.
Some men receive their Salvation at the end of their natural lives.
Some men receive their Salvation during their natural lives.


If you did not understand what I SAID...
You could have asked....instead of making accusations....

The Scriptures are for ALL men. Jews and Gentiles. But you should know Which passages applies to YOU, to an Atheist, to a follower who is not converted, to a follower who is converted, to a Jew who remains under the Law.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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gadar perets

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Have you ever eaten Pork, it can be real nice, they say it taste like Human, I have never eaten a Human yet, but would that be a sin if you had to, or die.
Yes, I ate pork for the first 31 years of my life until I read in the Word that YHWH considers it an abomination to do so. I immediately determined in my heart to never purposely eat it again. The Holy Spirit has empowered me to overcome that carnal desire.

As I understand it, health and life take precedence over the law. So eating a human to survive may be permissible, but I certainly would not kill a human to survive by eating it. However, to eat a human because his flesh "tastes wonderful" is sin. To eat swine's flesh, shellfish, etc., for that reason is also sin.

A good mate of mine was eating pork for the first time he was about 24yo say, it was late at night drinking at a party out in the bush, he had not eaten all night so I caught him fanging into a bit of skin that was left over, I pointed out the eye and part of the mouth and one nostril to him that he was eating, he was that drunk that he did not care and said it taste wonderful. ha ha !
Anything tastes good to a drunk.
 
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brakelite

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Whew....all this striving against each others beliefs made me hungry! Going to go fix me some bacon and eggs and toast. :p
Was Paul then urging Timothy to strive?
KJV 2 Timothy 4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
 

bbyrd009

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I do not teach anything close to what the Jewish Rabbis teach. I teach what Yeshua taught. What "swine-eaters" represent is irrelevant to the issue of not eating swine's flesh.

Yes, God cares about oxen. What is your point? He cares about His children as well which is why He told us not to eat unclean flesh.
no one was ever told a single time by God to not eat any certain flesh as far as you know gadar,
and if you were honest you could admit that that is the only fact in this post
ps in this context God does not care about oxen, either, ok, you might Bible search that one
In your attempt to be funny you mock the truth, unless you are referring to turkey bacon ;)
so then you have gone completely off the rails, and imo a general warning should prolly be issued for "Yeshua Cults" now i guess.
in your attempt to be holy you ignore the truth, gadar, and no one is going to appreciate your world policing, ok
you do not even realize what you are implying at "mock the truth" wadr
You waste my time when you do not elaborate. If you disagree with my statement, then show me where I'm wrong.
how could you be wrong gadar, you said you are certain
Discussing the Word is not striving. However, if, in the process of discussion, you start falsely accusing everyone that disagrees with you, then you are striving.
that is when i got into this thread, when you started assuring all pork eaters they were condemned, so i think this is my stop, and i wish you the best of luck ok.
Imo you can believe whatever you like, no sin in that, try getting some beliefs sometime imo
 
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stunnedbygrace

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"For God so loved the world that He gave Himself, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" IS another gospel, watch out. Teaching people to not sin by obeying the law out of love for our Creator is not another gospel.
Whaaat??!
 

stunnedbygrace

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ha well he is right if one insists upon substituting belief for faith i spose, def some scribes inna woodpile there i think

He seems always so very concerned that our Lord not be magnified too much. And the thought comes: WHY is this his concern? Because there is a reason of course...
 

stunnedbygrace

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There is some construct he fears will fall if our Lord is lifted up too much. I'm just at a loss as to what it is...
 
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Dave L

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Has anyone considered that Jesus Christ is the name of the triune God? Jesus told the disciples to baptize believers in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and this they did. They baptized believers in the name of Jesus Christ throughout Acts. Jude 5 says: “Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)

God is certainly a trinity as defined in the scriptures and in the Ecumenical Creeds. But his name in the New Covenant is Jesus Christ (YHWH).
 
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Heart2Soul

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In your attempt to be funny you mock the truth, unless you are referring to turkey bacon ;)
I wasn't mocking the truth I was being confident in it.....
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.
2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
4
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone.
8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
11 It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.
14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
15
If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.
16
Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.


So, I made a sarcastic reply to stress a point.....I without condemnation. I actually didn't go cook anything but my point is I am not bound by Kosher Laws.....As far as I know I have not been a stumbling block to anyone because of what I eat.
As verse 17 says....For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

So I pray His blessing over my meal and give thanks. The real meal comes after....the Word of God....which is meat to my spiritual growth!
 

Heart2Soul

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Was Paul then urging Timothy to strive?
KJV 2 Timothy 4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Oh I love this scripture.....but preaching the word to the point that you are intolerant of another's faith is striving to make them see it your way.
Philippians 1:15-18 New International Version (NIV)
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,

I don't know where everyone's faith is, what doctrine they heed, or where they are in their spiritual growth so I try not to judge or condemn or mock their belief....unless it is a total false doctrine.
 

bbyrd009

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Has anyone considered that Jesus Christ is the name of the triune God? Jesus told the disciples to baptize believers in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and this they did. They baptized believers in the name of Jesus Christ throughout Acts. Jude 5 says: “Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)

God is certainly a trinity as defined in the scriptures and in the Ecumenical Creeds. But his name in the New Covenant is Jesus Christ (YHWH).
κυριος, kurios, meaning enfranchised; the word for "lord."
 

gadar perets

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no one was ever told a single time by God to not eat any certain flesh as far as you know gadar,

As far as I know, YHWH told all His children to not eat certain flesh.

Lev 11:1 - And YHWH spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,

Lev 11:11 - They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.​

ps in this context God does not care about oxen, either, ok, you might Bible search that one
1Co 9:9 - For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?​

This law is primarily concerning caring for His ministers. YHWH obviously cares for oxen as well as all His creatures. That is why it is written in His Word, "“A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal” (Proverbs 12:10).

that is when i got into this thread, when you started assuring all pork eaters they were condemned, so i think this is my stop, and i wish you the best of luck ok.
Another false accusation with no quotes from me to back it up.
 

gadar perets

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I wasn't mocking the truth I was being confident in it.....
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.
2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
4
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone.
8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
11 It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.
14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
15
If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.
16
Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
A bias translation indeed, especially verses 3 & 14.
 

bbyrd009

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The LXX uses kurios for YHWH. Thus Kurios (Lord) = YHWH when referring to Jesus.
i srsly doubt it ok Dave,
"Our word church comes from the Greek word κυριος (kurios), which means mister or sir..." etc

any number of resources could explain why kurios is used there, and i don't want to bias you unfavorably until then
 
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