Parable Of The Wicked Husbandmen

[bbyrd009]

It was I that said it. An early post that I had made.

i thought so! :)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Insulting people does not replace sound exegesis. Which normally solves a problem.

Dave, sound exegesis is not what your response called for. It called for me to point out the absurdity of your comment.

If I said, "Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of the Jews," and you replied, "But it also teaches that His dog has fleas and a bad case of the mange," you honestly think I should respond with "sound exegesis"? :)

Look, I just don't agree if you think every single statement one could ever make under the sun should always be taken seriously. I just don't.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The jawbone of an ass stands for the sinless body of Christ, the true Nazarene and Sun* (of Righteousness), which He assumed - like Samson picked up the jawbone - and with which He slew the power of the Enemy. This body He cast away, as in given up to death, at Ramathlehi (Judges 15:17), which is a symbol for Golgotha. Ramathlehi interpreted means “the lifting up of the jawbone.” From this jawbone water gushed forth when the soldier pierced it. This water, whether it is understood as baptismal regeneration, or the living water promised to the Samaritan woman, the Holy Spirit, or true knowledge of God (Habakkuk 2:14, John 17:3), it stands for our salvation, which is what quenches Christ’s thirst (Judges 15:19).

______________
* Samson interpreted means bright sun.

1 Corinthians 11:24
[24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it , and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you...

 

[ScottA]

Absolutely, and I agree with you. I'm just saying that the scope of this parable wasn't that wide. It had a narrower focus, as the context bears out.

Aah... What makes you think so?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Aah... What makes you think so?

Well, the vineyard has to be literal Israel in this parable, more specifically the city of Jerusalem, because v.15 refers to the husbandmen casting the heir out of the vineyard and killing him, and Christ was cast out of Jerusalem and crucified outside the city walls.

Also because of the additional scriptures Brakelite provided that refer to Israel (and Jerusalem in particular) as the vineyard of God:

“The vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant.” Isaiah 5:7.

“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste; it shall not be pruned nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For ... He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.” Isaiah 5:3-7

 

[ScottA]

Well, the vineyard has to be literal Israel in this parable, more specifically the city of Jerusalem, because v.15 refers to the husbandmen casting the heir out of the vineyard and killing him, and Christ was cast out of Jerusalem and crucified outside the city walls.

Also because of the additional scriptures Brakelite provided that refer to Israel (and Jerusalem in particular) as the vineyard of God:

“The vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant.” Isaiah 5:7.

“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste; it shall not be pruned nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For ... He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.” Isaiah 5:3-7

I see your logic, but I would say that your logic is only good to a point, because then you would have to include all such passages and say that Christ "is the vine, and you are the branches"...and the whole thing begins to loose its parable value.

I say this, not because He did not mean it specifically for the house of Israel at the time, for which He came. But, because added to the scope of things to include more than he was addressing at the time. If you add that to the promise to Abraham...the application cannot be limited, except by Israel who has every right to claim that "He was speaking directly to us." Yet considering all of scripture, it is not our place to impose such a limit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see your logic, but I would say that your logic is only good to a point, because then you would have to include all such passages and say that Christ "is the vine, and you are the branches"...and the whole thing begins to loose its parable value.

My opinion is that parables must be interpreted as self-contained. Certainly there are times when symbolism can cross over, but if you interpret certain symbols to always refer to one thing only, or be completely interchangeable with other parables, you can get a false impression.

For instance, Jesus is described as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Yet to assume the lion symbolism always refers to Jesus would be a mistake, because Peter compared Satan to a roaring lion who roams to and fro in the earth seeking whom he might devour.

Even in situations where both parables use the same symbolism in a positive sense, this is still no guarantee that the metaphors were intended to be interchangeable and transferable from one parable to another.

 

[ScottA]

My opinion is that parables must be interpreted as self-contained. Certainly there are times when symbolism can cross over, but if you interpret certain symbols to always refer to one thing only, or be completely interchangeable with other parables, you can get a false impression.

For instance, Jesus is described as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Yet to assume the lion symbolism always refers to Jesus would be a mistake, because Peter compared Satan to a roaring lion who roams to and fro in the earth seeking whom he might devour.

Even in situations where both parables use the same symbolism in a positive sense, this is still no guarantee that the metaphors were intended to be interchangeable and transferable from one parable to another.

Good, and that hopefully means we are making progress.

The problem though, is that the limit or context of Israel's responsibility in being a light unto the nations...was not limited by Jesus speaking the parable to them. On the contrary, the chastising he spoke to Israel included them and their fathers, meaning all generations.

 

[farouk]

1 Corinthians 11:24
[24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it , and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you...

Great verse to remember: there is such a lot of blessed truth in the Lord's Supper, as we remember the Lord in the way He appointed.

 

[brakelite]

The problem though, is that the limit or context of Israel's responsibility in being a light unto the nations...was not limited by Jesus speaking the parable to them. On the contrary, the chastising he spoke to Israel included them and their fathers, meaning all generations.

Which is why God gave them, or determined for them, an allotment of time in order to fulfill their true destiny. When that time expired, Jesus Himself took over the duties once given to Jacob, whose name was changed on account of his overcoming. Yet the nation failed to live up to that exalted stature...which is why the promises to Israel now are offered to the church...if they overcome and fulfill their obligations.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, sound exegesis is not what your response called for. It called for me to point out the absurdity of your comment.

If I said, "Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of the Jews," and you replied, "But it also teaches that His dog has fleas and a bad case of the mange," you honestly think I should respond with "sound exegesis"? :)

Look, I just don't agree if you think every single statement one could ever make under the sun should always be taken seriously. I just don't.

Again, personal insults do not solve problems, they create them.

 

[Enoch111]

...which is why the promises to Israel now are offered to the church...

Not entirely. God will resume His dealings with Israel after the second coming of Christ, and many promises to Israel will then be fulfilled. Replacement Theology has no basis in Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Not entirely. God will resume His dealings with Israel after the second coming of Christ, and many promises to Israel will then be fulfilled. Replacement Theology has no basis in Scripture.

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him [Jesus] Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

 

[Enoch111]

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him [Jesus] Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

Very true. And it is in Christ that the promises to redeemed and restored Israel will be fulfilled, when He is King over Israel on earth.

 

[brakelite]

Not entirely. God will resume His dealings with Israel after the second coming of Christ, and many promises to Israel will then be fulfilled. Replacement Theology has no basis in Scripture.

Jesus did not replace Israel...He was, and is, the only true Israel. Scripture repeats that all over the place, as I showed in a previous post. And just as the descendants of Jacob became corporate Israel, so those born again into Christ become incorporated into Him. The old branches were broken off...Christians grafted on...the old branches may be grafted back into the Vine again, but that is the ONLY way to salvation for Israel.
Can you show from scripture any evidence that anyone actually survives the plagues and the second coming considering all the (remaining) wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming?...let alone an entire nation such as Israel...or any other nation?

 

[Enoch111]

Can you show from scripture any evidence that anyone actually survives the plagues and the second coming considering all the (remaining) wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming?...let alone an entire nation such as Israel...or any other nation?

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:8-10)

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

 

[brakelite]

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:8-10)

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

Now compare that with
KJV Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Who is Jesus addressing here? The nation of Israel... Or the church? I believe the church. That the nations of the world will be gathered together against God's people, His true temple, His body, His church which keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. The global church state union of the whore riding the state beast will include Israel, not be against her. Remember... You will be hard of all nations... It will be the enemy of the church, not Israel

 

[Dave L]

Very true. And it is in Christ that the promises to redeemed and restored Israel will be fulfilled, when He is King over Israel on earth.

His kingdom is not of this world and flesh and blood cannot enter it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Great verse to remember: there is such a lot of blessed truth in the Lord's Supper, as we remember the Lord in the way He appointed.

which is not ritual Communion, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

Again, personal insults do not solve problems, they create them.

you perceive an insult in there, Dave? where? Wadr the example given was pretty apt imo.
See how i have quoted you here, and i am addressing the body of your quote?
You often do not do this, is a point that is being made there imo.
That you perceive some insult is actually indicative, HIH was not being insulting at all?