Parable Of The Wicked Husbandmen

[brakelite]

And yet Revelation 7 and 14 make a CLEAR AND FULL DISTINCTION between the twelve tribes of Israel and the Church. That should mean something to those confused about the Church and holding to Replacement Theology.

IN context of my post above #72, the focus on literal Israel in some sense alienates the true Israel, Jesus Christ, as I gave solid Biblical foundation for in that post. Good luck in finding literal tribal members today.

 

[bbyrd009]

Good luck in finding literal tribal members today.

seems to me they are sprinkled in the world the same way the Church is sprinkled in the congregations?

 

[brakelite]

seems to me they are sprinkled in the world the same way the Church is sprinkled in the congregations?

The reason they were sprinkled in the first place...the ten tribes in the days after Solomon and Judah and Benjamin after Hezekiah, has a great deal to do with their fraternising with foreign women. Why would we expect that in the last 2000 years of exile their blood lines were untainted by their adulteries both spiritual and physical? Be difficult enough to find a true Israelite (doubtful regarding any in the nation now) without adding tribal affiliation.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

wadr imo that is virtually assured, as you can see from any ety of the term. What should be the more revealing here is how difficult it is to get ppl to lose this talents as natural abilities in Scripture idea?
imo the opening provides the frame there; "bc they were entering Jerusalem and the Apostles thought the kingdom was about to manifest" part, so imo the natural and spiritual are kind of being combined there, but that's just imo.
not sure if they do
indeed, but then our Sampson is Nazarite mythology about this same subject, "Rock of Etam" is a spiritual place--not a good place--and imo Sampson is...going to be unfairly abused here, after all Sampson was a Judge, but we are tempted to deem him like "evil" or something in this comparison, right. I dunno if that is the best idea?

Samson deemed evil ... imo no more evil then David or any other in the OT. Note: Samson slew his enemies with the jawbone of an ass. Mans way of doing battle. We revere ‘jawbone hill’...and the mountain of corpses...it makes for a good movie. Samson feared them binding him as knowing something deceptive was going on. Christ willingly was bound and knew the outcome. Christ also slew with the jawbone of an ass...He rode both the ass and the foal of an ass into Jerusalem. Water came from the hollow of the jawbone of an ass. I’m not sure what you mean by Nazareth ‘mythology’ because, if that is the case, how does the words then become Spirit?

As far as the parables go I’ve been told I read scripture and create a God that fits my personality. I’ve struggled with this. It was devastating because I value their opinion. Maybe it is true because what I hear is God bent His bow and, instead of arrows, His quiver is full with children. And I’m not sure what happened to Matthew 5:43-48in the parables “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

 

[bbyrd009]

Be difficult enough to find a true Israelite (doubtful regarding any in the nation now) without adding tribal affiliation.

ah, well..."true Israelite" means something diff to me i guess

 

[Hidden In Him]

Literal Israel is the Church AKA the Kingdom of God. Physical Israel today is not biblical Israel.

"Literal" = taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory. Did the church, AKA the kingdom of God just bomb Gaza last week? If we did, I'd say we're becoming a little too militant.

 

[Dave L]

"Literal" = taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory. Did the church, AKA the kingdom of God just bomb Gaza last week? If we did, I'd say we're becoming a little too militant.

Today's Israel is not biblical Israel. They exist only because of their hatred and rejection of Christ. Those who accepted Jesus remained Israel into whom we were grafted in by faith.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Today's Israel is not biblical Israel. They exist only because of their hatred and rejection of Christ.

No, no. They didn't bomb Christ. They bombed Gaza. Look:

 

[Dave L]

No, no. They didn't bomb Christ. They bombed Gaza. Look:

And you think this is swell?

 

[Hidden In Him]

And you think this is swell?

No. Just trying to poke a little fun with you is all. You throw absurd statements and arguments out there, and sometimes it just makes it to where I stop taking the debate seriously anymore.

No offense, though. Just saying, conversation with you isn't easy.

 

[Dave L]

No. Just trying to poke a little fun with you is all. You throw absurd statements and arguments out there, and sometimes it just makes it to where I stop taking the debate seriously anymore.

No offense, though. Just saying, conversation with you isn't easy.

It's easy to hurl insults, bible scholarship is an entirely different game.

 

[icxn]

Samson deemed evil ... imo no more evil then David or any other in the OT. Note: Samson slew his enemies with the jawbone of an ass. Mans way of doing battle. We revere ‘jawbone hill’...and the mountain of corpses...it makes for a good movie. Samson feared them binding him as knowing something deceptive was going on. Christ willingly was bound and knew the outcome. Christ also slew with the jawbone of an ass...He rode both the ass and the foal of an ass into Jerusalem. Water came from the hollow of the jawbone of an ass. I’m not sure what you mean by Nazareth ‘mythology’ because, if that is the case, how does the words then become Spirit?

The jawbone of an ass stands for the sinless body of Christ, the true Nazarene and Sun* (of Righteousness), which He assumed - like Samson picked up the jawbone - and with which He slew the power of the Enemy. This body He cast away, as in given up to death, at Ramathlehi (Judges 15:17), which is a symbol for Golgotha. Ramathlehi interpreted means “the lifting up of the jawbone.” From this jawbone water gushed forth when the soldier pierced it. This water, whether it is understood as baptismal regeneration, or the living water promised to the Samaritan woman, the Holy Spirit, or true knowledge of God (Habakkuk 2:14, John 17:3), it stands for our salvation, which is what quenches Christ’s thirst (Judges 15:19).

______________
* Samson interpreted means bright sun.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's easy to hurl insults, bible scholarship is an entirely different game.

I'm not hurling insults! Where did I hurl an insult?

 

[Dave L]

You throw absurd statements and arguments out there, and sometimes it just makes it to where I stop taking the debate seriously anymore.

I'm not hurling insults! Where did I hurl an insult?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Dave! Your response was "Literal Israel is the Church AKA the Kingdom of God..." To which I replied, "Literal = taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory." I wasn't saying it to be insulting; I was trying to be as polite as I could make it. But it was absurd. There were not a lot of other ways to describe it. I don't call ALL the statements you make absurd, do I? In fact, when you make an argument that's plausible, I acknowledge it, don't I? I just had no choice but to call you on this one because it was a little on the ridiculous side.

If I didn't expect better of you, I wouldn't say anything. And that too wasn't said to be insulting but rather considerate.

 

[Dave L]

Dave! Your response was "Literal Israel is the Church AKA the Kingdom of God..." To which I replied, "Literal = taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory." I wasn't saying it to be insulting; I was trying to be as polite as I could make it. But it was absurd. There were not a lot of other ways to describe it. I don't call ALL the statements you make absurd, do I? In fact, when you make an argument that's plausible, I acknowledge it, don't I? I just had no choice but to call you on this one because it was a little on the ridiculous side.

If I didn't expect better of you, I wouldn't say anything. And that too wasn't said to be insulting but rather considerate.

Insulting people does not replace sound exegesis. Which normally solves a problem.

 

[ScottA]

But before the crucifixion Christ wasn't preaching to the world. He was at this point still preaching to the lost sheep of Israel. Same goes for the prophets (the "servants" whom God sent to the vineyard). They weren't sent to the world. They were sent exclusively to Israel.

I see your point, but the greater scope of God's plan of salvation was to and through Israel, but ultimately to all nations, according to His promise to Abraham.

As for the timing...Jesus is the Word, the Beginning and the End. It is only the illusion of time that makes things appear to be timeline specific, but they are not. All things happened "Before the foundation of the world" in the timeless eternity of God. The times of their revelation to men, is not the timing of when they actually occurred.

 

[icxn]

...The parable of the Wicked Tenants is contrasted by the Parable of a Man who had Planted a Fig Tree who continued to look for fruit from the tree for three seasons, and when he had found no fruit, he asked the husbandman of his garden to destroy the fig tree, but the husbandman interceded on behalf of the Fig Tree and asked for another season to see if the Fig Tree would bear fruit by the end of that season so that the Fig Tree would live.

That is a good observation. Three servants were sent in the former (parable) asking for fruit and for three seasons the same was required in the latter. The fourth season being the dispensation of grace, as the forth servant or rather son sent was Christ, has the keeper of the vineyard promising to dig around the fig tree and placing dung. What is the digging around, if not the apostolic preaching and dung the nations who nourished and gave new life to the Church? I think such an interpretation is in agreement with the former parable that has the vineyard given to different husbandmen, not to mention the parallels to spiritual growth. Broken down with water (baptism), dung is first absorbed by the tree (church) and then gradually transformed into leaves (perfected in works of repentance), fragrant flowers (making progress in virtue and knowledge of God) and finally into fruit (a holy and righteous nation).

 

[Jay Ross]

um, i think it was the timing? 15th c? Maybe combined with how the RCC teaches the parable? i seem to even recall a fairly direct ref for that, might come to me. Anyway it was someone here onsite, you could prolly search "parable talents" and zero in on it maybe. Search Results | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board are me referring to it mostly, it was...prolly most of a year ago now i guess, maybe the oct 2017 ref

It was I that said it. An early post that I had made.

And yes the main character, the man who goes a way for a time is definitely Satan.

The Luke 19 telling of the parable gives more of a clue as to the timing and understanding for the Parable of the Talents which was told to the disciples a few days later..

Luke 19:11-27 The Parable of the Minas
(Matt 25:14-30)
11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: "A certain nobleman {i.e. Satan} went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. {i.e. Satan knows that God is going to judge him and imprison him for a time and covers up this fact by telling the lie that he is going away to receive a kingdom.} 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, 'Do business till I come.' 14 But his citizens (i.e. Israel} hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.' {i.e. they repent of their idolatry. Jesus tells us when the start of this parable will occur, when Israel repents of this iniquities against God and are redeemed.}

15 "And so it was that when he returned, {after being released from being imprisoned for 1,000 years, and claiming to} having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained {for his kingdom} by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned ten minas.' 17 And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, {you have used the money that I gave you by trading to oppress the people, please continue by} have authority over ten cities.' 18 And the second came, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned five minas.' 19 Likewise he said to him, 'You {have used the money that I gave you by trading to oppress the people, please} also be over five cities.'

20 "Then another came, saying, 'Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief {according to the Law of God as told by Moses.} 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow, {i.e. you want what is not yours to have},' 22 And he said to him,'Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow,{i.e. Yes I want what is not mine to have}. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest, {by giving the money to someone else to trade with so that the people were also oppressed by the money that you had received}?'

24 "And he said to those who stood by, 'Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.' 25 (But they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas.') 26 'For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, {i.e. those who worship God}, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me, {which sets the time of Satan's return, after his imprisonment for 1,000 years and what Satan will be doing when he return to force people to worship him only}.'"
​

Now what I have inserted into the above parable and shown by making all of the inserts bold is what we know from other portions of the scriptures. Now, I am sure that many on this forum, that are able to reference the scriptures that confirm the bold inserts that I have put into the above parable. This Parable, like the Parable of the Talents, is about what Satan will be doing when God will establish His Ever Lasting Kingdom in our near future.

What Jesus is telling the people around Him on the journey up to Jerusalem from Jericho, is that, when the Everlasting Kingdom of God is established here on the earth, it will not initially be an easy walk in the park/garden so to speak as there will be hard times ahead to resist the influence of Satan's Good and Faithful Servants and then Satan himself before all things are set right for those who deliberately chose to worship God alone, even though initially they will experience hardship and even death for their beliefs.

Shalom

PS: - Now I do agree that the Saints are required to also demonstrate their love of God to those around them and to make disciples of those willing to accept the words that the Saints teach about God, that He has given them to teach. But the parables of the Minas and the Talents should not be used to force us to be doing God's work, as this is also oppressive and will lead many Saints to fall away from God by instilling the wrong understanding of what God/Jesus is like in them.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see your point, but the greater scope of God's plan of salvation was to and through Israel, but ultimately to all nations, according to His promise to Abraham.

Absolutely, and I agree with you. I'm just saying that the scope of this parable wasn't that wide. It had a narrower focus, as the context bears out.