Shadows and Realities

[Pilgrimer]

Jerusalem is no longer the only location to keep Passover (John 4:21; Acts 20:6) and we no longer eat a literal lamb. That aspect of Passover was fulfilled.

But you didn’t answer my question. Does the fact that you don’t obey the Passover commandments according to the letter of the law, does that mean you are breaking those commandments?

The point is that our celebration of the Passover is spiritual, a spiritual feast, whereby we partake of spiritual food (Jesus is our Passover). He is also our Unleavened, sinless bread, the bread [manna] sent down from heaven. And by partaking of this spiritual food we have eternal life, as Jesus said.

That does not mean we stop celebrating all that Passover means, both past and present.

But again, that’s just the point. It is in the New Covenant celebration of the Passover, a spiritual feast, that we actually celebrate all that Passover means (including the history of the original Passover-liberation from bondage), what what all of the elements of the Passover (the lamb, the unleavened bread, the cups of wine) pointed forward to. Not some cobbled together compromise between the letter and the spirit, between the Old Covenant and the New, taking some elements from the Old and some elements from the New and mixing together shadows and realities. That is man-made.

You erroneously include feasts and the Sabbath rest in your man made distinction of what "old earthly things" includes. I will not spiritualize them away as you have.

Seriously? After several days of discussing “shadows vs realities,” now you’re going to insist that the feasts weren’t shadows at all but were themselves the realities?

And the sabbaths too, they were shadows that foreshadowed “a day” that God set aside as the day when all these things would be observed, and that day is today, the Day of Salvation. Today, if you will hear his voice and not refuse to hear what the Spirit is saying. Today is the feast of the Passover, today whosoever will can come to the Lord’s table and sit and partake of the Lamb of God and receive eternal life. We don’t have to wait for a certain day on the calendar (the shadow). Under the New Covenant “Today” (the reality) is the day God has made when we can obey His commandment to come and take part in the Passover. Indeed, for those who are in Christ, every day is the Passover because every day we must partake of that sacrifice to sustain us just as the priests who ministered in God’s Temple daily ate of the portions of the sacrifices, their daily lot and portion. And so it is with us, we don’t just partake of the Passover once, or once a year, but it is an ongoing feast that will never end but will be celebrated forever.

Today is also the feast of Unleavened Bread, when those who partake of the Passover eat of the sinless bread of life that was sent down from Heaven.

Today is also the day that whosoever will can come to the door of God’s Holy House and be sprinkled with the blood of atonement for remission of sin in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

God made today the Day of Salvation, the day when He fulfilled all that the old earthly things mean, what they foreshadowed, what they spoke of, and pointed to. Jesus finished the work (“It is finished”) and we today can rest in the finished work of Jesus. Today, this day, this very moment we celebrate the reality of what all those former things meant. This is God’s doing, not man’s.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[ScottA]

You do realize I can say the same thing about you; that the Pharisees had the same comeback as you? They were called to repent and believe, but they loved their man made rules and misunderstandings of Scripture more than the truth. To paraphrase you, "the leaven of sin is renewed to become new wine"??? Oy vey! Your religion is to spiritualize away truth and remain in your lawlessness.

Except that you have done so against God, using the term "spiritualize" as if God himself, whom is spirit, is bad. I told you, you had it backwards...and there it is - now you have said it.

 

[gadar perets]

But you didn’t answer my question. Does the fact that you don’t obey the Passover commandments according to the letter of the law, does that mean you are breaking those commandments?

That depends on what letter you are referring to. Letters that have been fulfilled such as sacrificing a literal Passover lamb no longer apply. The letters of all Ten Commandments and the two greatest commandments do apply.

The point is that our celebration of the Passover is spiritual, a spiritual feast, whereby we partake of spiritual food (Jesus is our Passover). He is also our Unleavened, sinless bread, the bread [manna] sent down from heaven. And by partaking of this spiritual food we have eternal life, as Jesus said.

You do not celebrate the Passover. You simply believe in and partake of the ultimate Passover Lamb. Now go and celebrate Passover with Yeshua in mind. Remember the day of his death on the day of his death and not on "Good Friday". Teach your children how he fulfills the Passover lambs sacrificed in Egypt to bring about Israel's deliverance from the bondage of Egyptian slavery and our own bondage from sin. Celebrate the FOUB by not only partaking of the unleavened bread of life, but by obeying YHWH in ridding your own life of leaven as Yeshua did. Yes, you have eternal life through Yeshua. So do I, but that doesn't prevent me from obeying YHWH and not partaking of literal leaven during the Passover season. There are such great lessons to be learned when we do so.

But again, that’s just the point. It is in the New Covenant celebration of the Passover, a spiritual feast, that we actually celebrate all that Passover means (including the history of the original Passover-liberation from bondage), what what all of the elements of the Passover (the lamb, the unleavened bread, the cups of wine) pointed forward to. Not some cobbled together compromise between the letter and the spirit, between the Old Covenant and the New, taking some elements from the Old and some elements from the New and mixing together shadows and realities. That is man-made.

I don't mix shadows and realities. I know what shadows are fulfilled and which are not. I don't make foolish blanket statements like "Jesus fulfilled all shadows and types" or "they have all passed away" or "the entire Law has passed away" as others do.

Seriously? After several days of discussing “shadows vs realities,” now you’re going to insist that the feasts weren’t shadows at all but were themselves the realities?

How did you conclude that from, "You erroneously include feasts and the Sabbath rest in your man made distinction of what "old earthly things" includes. I will not spiritualize them away as you have."?

And the sabbaths too, they were shadows that foreshadowed “a day” that God set aside as the day when all these things would be observed, and that day is today, the Day of Salvation. Today, if you will hear his voice and not refuse to hear what the Spirit is saying. Today is the feast of the Passover, today whosoever will can come to the Lord’s table and sit and partake of the Lamb of God and receive eternal life. We don’t have to wait for a certain day on the calendar (the shadow). Under the New Covenant “Today” (the reality) is the day God has made when we can obey His commandment to come and take part in the Passover. Indeed, for those who are in Christ, every day is the Passover because every day we must partake of that sacrifice to sustain us just as the priests who ministered in God’s Temple daily ate of the portions of the sacrifices, their daily lot and portion. And so it is with us, we don’t just partake of the Passover once, or once a year, but it is an ongoing feast that will never end but will be celebrated forever.

Today is also the feast of Unleavened Bread, when those who partake of the Passover eat of the sinless bread of life that was sent down from Heaven.

Today is also the day that whosoever will can come to the door of God’s Holy House and be sprinkled with the blood of atonement for remission of sin in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

God made today the Day of Salvation, the day when He fulfilled all that the old earthly things mean, what they foreshadowed, what they spoke of, and pointed to. Jesus finished the work (“It is finished”) and we today can rest in the finished work of Jesus. Today, this day, this very moment we celebrate the reality of what all those former things meant. This is God’s doing, not man’s.

More blanket statements with no foundation in Scripture. You are giving me your opinion. Where does Scripture say "every day is the Passover" or "every day is Unleavened Bread" or "every day is the Sabbath" or "every day is Atonement"?

Why does Scripture say Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) will be kept after Yeshua returns (Zechariah 14) if every day will be Sukkot at that time? Why will all flesh worship YHWH on New Moons and Sabbaths in the New Heavens and New Earth (Isaiah 66:22-23) if every day will be Sabbath at that time? Why does Acts 27:9 mark time by the fast of the Day of Atonement? Why does Luke say, "And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, ..." (Acts 20:6) if every day is Unleavened Bread? How can the Holy Spirit say through Luke, "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, ..." (Acts 2) if every day is Pentecost?

You need to rethink your position.

 

[gadar perets]

Except that you have done so against God, using the term "spiritualize" as if God himself, whom is spirit, is bad. I told you, you had it backwards...and there it is - now you have said it.

No, I do so against your interpretation of Scripture. Also, I did not say "spiritualize", but "spiritualize away". If you were to tell me we do not need to literally be immersed under water for baptism because it is somehow done spiritually, that would be to spiritualize away a literal thing. You have done just that to YHWH's laws.

 

[ScottA]

No, I do so against your interpretation of Scripture. Also, I did not say "spiritualize", but "spiritualize away". If you were to tell me we do not need to literally be immersed under water for baptism because it is somehow done spiritually, that would be to spiritualize away a literal thing. You have done just that to YHWH's laws.

I am not interpreting.

But again you have it backwards. Nothing is "spiritualized away", but what you call "literal" is not, and will be taken away, that the word of the Lord saying, "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him", shall come to pass.

 

[gadar perets]

I am not interpreting.

But again you have it backwards. Nothing is "spiritualize away", but what you call "literal" is not, and will be taken away, that the word of the Lord saying, "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him", shall come to pass.

One thing YHWH will never take away from me is Torah since He Himself wrote it on my heart and mind through faith in His Son.

 

[Pilgrimer]

That depends on what letter you are referring to. Letters that have been fulfilled such as sacrificing a literal Passover lamb no longer apply.

But the point is that you agree we’re not required to observe the letter of that commandment and yet that does not mean we are therefore breaking that commandment. And if that can be true of one commandment, it can be true of another. Saying it cannot be is a man-made rule.

You do not celebrate the Passover. You simply believe in and partake of the ultimate Passover Lamb.

We celebrate the reality, the ultimate Passover, and everything those shadows meant. It’s always Passover for those of us who understand that the reality is an ongoing spiritual feast that will never end. We who are saved by the body and blood of Jesus will always and forever be partaking of, relying on, dependent on, trusting in, feasting on, celebrating the sacrifice that Jesus made for our deliverance. We will never reach a point in time, unlike the former, our feast will end.

So, you don’t observe the New Covenant Passover, and you can only observe some of the Old Covenant Passover (which does not include the Lamb), and yet you call that obedient? I've explained how I obey the commandment to eat the Passover. You?

Teach your children …

I don’t have to sacrifice and eat a lamb or bake and eat unleavened bread to teach my children what those things foreshadowed. Nor would I ever teach them that partial obedience to some of the commandments is obedience.

I don't mix shadows and realities. I know what shadows are fulfilled and which are not.

Yes you do mix shadows and realities. You claim to believe in Jesus as the Passover Lamb (the reality) so you don’t sacrifice a lamb, and yet you bake and eat unleavened bread (a shadow).

I don't make foolish blanket statements like "Jesus fulfilled all shadows and types" or "they have all passed away" or "the entire Law has passed away" as others do.

This is as simple as it gets. You can no longer keep covenant with God by obedience to the Mosaic Law. God Himself removed all those things that He provided for the Law’s observance. You do realize that even the feasts were not observed until Israel had settled in the land? That’s because many of the festival commandments were associated with the harvest of the land. And until they could sow and reap a harvest, they couldn’t fulfill all the festival commandments. So I think the statement that obedience to God lies in keeping the festival commandments is foolish because it is impossible. And God made it impossible. For a reason. Or do you think the complete destruction of the whole Mosaic economy in the generation of the coming of Jesus was an accident of history?

How did you conclude that from, "You erroneously include feasts and the Sabbath rest in your man made distinction of what "old earthly things" includes. I will not spiritualize them away as you have."?

You object to “spiritualizing” the Passover feast? Okay, so you think we practice cannibalism? That we eat the literal body and blood of Jesus? That’s rhetorical. I’m sure your answer would be a resounding no. But the point is that of course we “spiritualize” the things of God, they are spiritual in nature, spiritual things that were foreshadowed in the earthly, "patterned after" things God showed Moses in the mount, things so other-worldly (if I might us that term) that it caused Moses face to shine! I don't recall anyone's face being made to shine by seeing the earthly land and city and temple. I do believe Moses was probably shown that heavenly country and city and temple that the old earthly were patterned after.

More blanket statements with no foundation in Scripture.

Oh my. Read Psalms 95 and Hebrews 3:7-4:11. You do realize that Israel kept the 7th day Sabbath even during the 40 years they were wandering in the wilderness? And yet David and Paul spoke of the rest that they would not enter into because of their unbelief. The “rest” they would not enter into was the promised land. Have you looked at what the promised land foreshadowed?

Personally, I think you have some wondrous and inspiring things to learn and I wish you would be more open to them.

You are giving me your opinion. Where does Scripture say "every day is the Passover" or "every day is Unleavened Bread" or "every day is the Sabbath" or "every day is Atonement"?

Are you saying that a person cannot be saved today? Cannot “partake” today of the sacrifice of Jesus to deliver them from their sins? partake today of the body and blood of Jesus as their Passover Lamb? When a person accepts Jesus as their Savior, that’s what they’re doing. They don’t have to understand what all it means, they’ll learn. But that’s what it means. Are you saying we cannot eat today that sinless (unleavened) bread of life which came down from heaven that the Israelites ate every day that they wandered in the wilderness? Where is the New Testament scripture saying those things can only be fulfilled in someone’s life on a certain day of the Old Covenant calendar? In the Acts, were people only saved on Nisan 14? Or did they only have their sins atoned on the 10th day of Tishri?

Today is the day of salvation. Today we can be saved. Today we can partake of the Passover Lamb and be delivered from sin, partake of that sinless body and find life. Today we can have our sins atoned by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus. You really don’t believe that?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

But the point is that you agree we’re not required to observe the letter of that commandment and yet that does not mean we are therefore breaking that commandment. And if that can be true of one commandment, it can be true of another. Saying it cannot be is a man-made rule.

We can't break the letter of a commandment that has been fulfilled. This is true of sacrificing a Passover lamb and it is true of other commandments like sacrificing a goat for atonement. However, it is NOT true of any of the Ten Commandments or the two greatest commandments or the dietary laws or certain unfulfilled feasts. We can break the letter of every one of them.

We celebrate the reality, the ultimate Passover, and everything those shadows meant. It’s always Passover for those of us who understand that the reality is an ongoing spiritual feast that will never end. We who are saved by the body and blood of Jesus will always and forever be partaking of, relying on, dependent on, trusting in, feasting on, celebrating the sacrifice that Jesus made for our deliverance. We will never reach a point in time, unlike the former, our feast will end.

Please explain this passage;

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luke 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.​

This tells me that there is a future fulfillment of Passover. Yes, Yeshua fulfilled the Passover sacrifice, but something more needs to be fulfilled that involves Yeshua eating of the Passover.

Also, please explain celebrating Passover after Ezekiel's temple is built (Ezekiel 45:21). Is that in our future?

So, you don’t observe the New Covenant Passover, and you can only observe some of the Old Covenant Passover (which does not include the Lamb), and yet you call that obedient? I've explained how I obey the commandment to eat the Passover. You?

I don't observe any of the OC Passover since the OC no longer exists for me. I live under the NC. I explained how I obey the commandment to eat the Passover as well. You must have missed it.

Yes you do mix shadows and realities. You claim to believe in Jesus as the Passover Lamb (the reality) so you don’t sacrifice a lamb, and yet you bake and eat unleavened bread (a shadow).

That is not mixing shadows and realities. That is living in the realities that have come and waiting for the realities that haven't.

This is as simple as it gets. You can no longer keep covenant with God by obedience to the Mosaic Law. God Himself removed all those things that He provided for the Law’s observance. You do realize that even the feasts were not observed until Israel had settled in the land? That’s because many of the festival commandments were associated with the harvest of the land. And until they could sow and reap a harvest, they couldn’t fulfill all the festival commandments. So I think the statement that obedience to God lies in keeping the festival commandments is foolish because it is impossible. And God made it impossible. For a reason. Or do you think the complete destruction of the whole Mosaic economy in the generation of the coming of Jesus was an accident of history?

Do you not understand that the Mosaic Law is part of Torah and Torah is written in the hearts and minds of NC believers (Jer 31:33)? The complete destruction of the Mosaic economy did not happen. The complete destruction of Jerusalem and its inhabitants did happen as a result of all the things listed in Matthew 23, including a massive failure to obey YHWH's laws given through Moses.

You object to “spiritualizing” the Passover feast? Okay, so you think we practice cannibalism? That we eat the literal body and blood of Jesus? That’s rhetorical. I’m sure your answer would be a resounding no. But the point is that of course we “spiritualize” the things of God, they are spiritual in nature, spiritual things that were foreshadowed in the earthly, "patterned after" things God showed Moses in the mount, things so other-worldly (if I might us that term) that it caused Moses face to shine! I don't recall anyone's face being made to shine by seeing the earthly land and city and temple. I do believe Moses was probably shown that heavenly country and city and temple that the old earthly were patterned after.

It was the Ten Commandments that caused Moses' face to shine.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance;
​

They were glorious, but having them written inwardly rather than on stone is far more glorious.

Yes, certain things have a spiritual application, but the wholesale destruction of Torah by Christians is what I was referring to by saying, "spiritualize them away".

Oh my. Read Psalms 95 and Hebrews 3:7-4:11. You do realize that Israel kept the 7th day Sabbath even during the 40 years they were wandering in the wilderness? And yet David and Paul spoke of the rest that they would not enter into because of their unbelief. The “rest” they would not enter into was the promised land. Have you looked at what the promised land foreshadowed?

The original account from which Hebrews 4:1-11 is taken is found in Numbers 14:22-24, 28-30, and Deuteronomy 1:30-40. In both passages it was the "land" (of Canaan) that was being withheld because of unbelief. The children of Israel were on their wilderness journey to the "promised land," which was a type of the "rest" to come. Joshua brought them into that land or the typical "rest" (Josh 1:13-15; 21:44; 22:4), yet the Almighty again spoke through David concerning this greater rest. In Psalm 95:11, David uses the phrase "my rest" instead of "the land" as in the original promise. Why? Because "the land" was only a type of the future rest to come when true believers enter into the true promised land, the "heavenly country" that the patriarchs of old saw from afar (Heb 11:13-16).

We are currently on our wilderness journey as well. We are heading for the heavenly country promised us. Just as the Israelites continued keeping the Sabbath rest throughout their wilderness journey, so, too, must we continue to keep the Sabbath rest. In fact, the Israelites continued to keep the Sabbath even after entering the typical promised land of Canaan. We, too, will continue in the Sabbath rest as prophesied by Isaiah (66:22,23) even after the new heaven and new earth come.

If the common Christian view of Hebrews 4:10 is correct, that the Sabbath is abolished because we have entered the true rest, then, to be consistent, it must also be true that all work is abolished since we have ceased from our own works. In other words, if the physical rest is done away with, then the physical labor should also be done away with. However, since believers continue to do physical labors like farming, construction work, etc., they should also continue to rest from such labor as it is written. Additionally, the Sabbath rest is commanded for the sake of animals as well. Is it now permissible for farmers to work their animals seven days a week? Do animals somehow enter into the true rest as well?

Hebrews 4:11 talks about laboring to enter into that rest. It is not something we automatically receive upon accepting Yeshua as our Savior except by faith. That rest will become a reality upon our resurrection unto eternal life. That is why we see the saints of Revelation 14:12,13 laboring right up until death. It is only after death that the ultimate rest can literally begin. Note, also, that those saints "keep the commandments of God" (KJV), among which is the Sabbath.

We certainly can find rest for our souls in Messiah (Matthew 11:28,29), but he does not give our bodies rest, nor does he give animals rest. That kind of rest is only available through the Sabbath rest. Jeremiah 6:16 reads, "Thus saith Yahweh, 'Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' But they said, 'We will not walk therein.' " The "old paths" and the "good way" that provides a "rest for the soul" includes the keeping of Yahweh's Sabbaths. Notice the similar wording found in Isaiah 58:12,13. The rest we have in Yeshua is only a foretaste of the rest to come at his second coming when we will be dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in the glorious "heavenly country".[/QUOTE]

 

[gadar perets]

Are you saying that a person cannot be saved today? Cannot “partake” today of the sacrifice of Jesus to deliver them from their sins? partake today of the body and blood of Jesus as their Passover Lamb? When a person accepts Jesus as their Savior, that’s what they’re doing. They don’t have to understand what all it means, they’ll learn. But that’s what it means. Are you saying we cannot eat today that sinless (unleavened) bread of life which came down from heaven that the Israelites ate every day that they wandered in the wilderness? Where is the New Testament scripture saying those things can only be fulfilled in someone’s life on a certain day of the Old Covenant calendar? In the Acts, were people only saved on Nisan 14? Or did they only have their sins atoned on the 10th day of Tishri?

Today is the day of salvation. Today we can be saved. Today we can partake of the Passover Lamb and be delivered from sin, partake of that sinless body and find life. Today we can have our sins atoned by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus. You really don’t believe that?

I never said any of those things. That is your emotions running wild and implying I believe those things. Try sticking to my actual words without reading your nonsense into them.

 

[ScottA]

One thing YHWH will never take away from me is Torah since He Himself wrote it on my heart and mind through faith in His Son.

You contradict yourself.

First you campaign against the spirit, condemning "spiritualizating" against God whom is spirit...and then you claim that He has spiritualized His laws in on your heart, implementing Jesus who came that those who will receive Him in spirit shall be saved, all the while claiming that those things that are manifest in the world are what is actual "literal" as if the unseen spiritual kingdom of God is not.

Jesus had a word for that.

 

[gadar perets]

You contradict yourself.

First you campaign against the spirit, condemning "spiritualizating" against God whom is spirit...and then you claim that He has spiritualized His laws in on your heart, implementing Jesus who came that those who will receive Him in spirit shall be saved, all the while claiming that those things that are manifest in the world are what is actual "literal" as if the unseen spiritual kingdom of God is not.

Jesus had a word for that.

The contradiction is in your mind. Yes, Yeshua had a word for that ...false accusations. I never campaigned against "the spirit" or "God" or "Jesus". Nor did I promote the things of this world or speak against "the spiritual kingdom of God". That is just how you falsely interpreted my words in your feeble effort to discredit me and the holy days.

 

[Pilgrimer]

I never said any of those things. That is your emotions running wild and implying I believe those things. Try sticking to my actual words without reading your nonsense into them.

Actually, I’m a very emotionally stable person and don’t tend toward nonsense. I’m just trying to find some common ground with you. I think you may be missing a lot of realities because you’re so focused on shadows.

Under the New Covenant, God’s “holy days” are all fulfilled in “the Day of Salvation,” which is … today! This is the Day of Salvation. This is the Day the Law and the Prophets spoke of, foreshadowed, pointed to, testified of, prophesied about, predicted, symbolized, typified and preached about. This day that you and I are living in. This day when Jesus has come and fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. Today is the day of Salvation that God before ordained (set aside, limited, set the boundaries of). This is the Day of Salvation, this is the Holy Day that God before ordained that His people would celebrate with gathering together into one body and feasting at the Lord’s Table. This is the day when God’s people would stand at the door of His House and be sprinkled with blood and have their sins atoned. All of God’s holy days of the Old Covenant spoke of a day God had set aside when His people would enjoy all of these wonderful blessings. From feasting on the body of the Passover lamb to being sprinkled by the blood of the goat for Jehovah, from eating of the unleavened bread of Jesus’ sinless body to drawing from the wells of salvation and drinking of the water of life.

You do realize that all these were elements of both the spring AND the fall feasts? It’s simply not true that the spring feasts were shadows of Jesus’ first coming and the fall feasts are shadows of his 2nd coming. They are ALL shadows of the heavenly blessings we have now, today, in Jesus. What the 2nd Coming of Jesus will accomplish is what Paul called the "manifestation" of all these spiritual blessings, when the whole creation will be liberated from the corruption and darkness of sin and mortality and will shine with the glory of the presence of all these spiritual blessings that we have in Christ, in a new heavens and new earth, in a new world to come.

You know, the land of Israel was a shadow of the Messianic Kingdom, not the substance. The Kingdom of Jesus Christ is God’s Kingdom with Jesus reigning over it. Everything that exists, the Kingdom of Heaven and even the kingdoms of this world have been made subject to Jesus, to his authority. The ONLY thing that is not subject to Jesus is the Father Himself, the One who put everything in subjection to His Son. That’s why Jesus is seated in the throne of God at the Father’s right hand. That is the kingdom that the land of Israel was a shadow of, the heavenly country that those Old Testament saints looked for and longed for, even while they lived in the land.

To me the logical question then would be “if everything is subject to Jesus, if he has authority over everything, including the kingdoms of this world, why then are there enemies of Jesus and of God, why do people continue to sin?" To answer my own question, it's because they are in rebellion against God and against His Christ. And yes, Jesus could in an instant wipe them from the face of the earth. But remember when the village of the Samaritans refused to receive Jesus, and James and John were ready to call fire down from heaven and destroy them? Jesus rebuked them saying: “You know not what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And remember Lot’s encounter with the Lord? He said if there was even one righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah he would not destroy the cities. So pointing out that there are still sinners in the world who do not obey Jesus is not proof that His Kingdom has not come or that he does not reign.

So the only reason the whole world and Jesus’ enemies weren’t burned up the day Christ sat down on the throne of God is that he didn’t come to destroy his enemies, he came to lay down his life as a ransom that everyone everywhere might repent and be saved. Granted, not all will, in fact most will not, the vast majority will not, the vast majority of Jews did not (only a remnant were saved), and the vast majority of Gentiles will not (broad is the way and many go in) but for the sake of saving those few, Jesus allows his enemies to reject him and live in rebellion against his authority, and die in their sins, even while he is busy saving the few, as if he were plucking brands from the fire.

And I know you know all these things. But the point is that we don’t lay them aside when we talk about Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law and Prophets. The Scripture says “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,” which means the whole point of prophecy, whether in word or in types and figures and shadows, the message of prophecy, what it is talking about is that it testifies about Jesus, about his person and his work. And if we miss that, we kind of miss the whole point. God didn’t send his Son to bring us to the Law and help us to fulfill it, he sent the Law to bring us to His Son who has fulfilled all these things of the Law and freely ministers them to us, if we can receive them.

The (man-made) holiday of Thanksgiving is upon us and I have many obligations so I will have to withdraw from our chats for a bit, but I wanted to share some thoughts about some of the broader issues so you’ll maybe better understand where I’m coming from on all these details, the little jots and tittles of the Law and Prophets that can be understood in some drastically different ways without some common ground to approach them from. The "Good News" is the ground I approach them from.

Anyway, God’s blessings and whether you celebrate this day of Thanksgiving or not, I pray that we all may live in a spirit of joy and thanksgiving of all the wondrous things God has done for us and given to us through our Lord and Savior Jesus.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[ScottA]

The contradiction is in your mind. Yes, Yeshua had a word for that ...false accusations. I never campaigned against "the spirit" or "God" or "Jesus". Nor did I promote the things of this world or speak against "the spiritual kingdom of God". That is just how you falsely interpreted my words in your feeble effort to discredit me and the holy days.

You are kidding yourself.

Anti-"spiritualizing" is anti-God. Pretty straight forward.

 

[gadar perets]

Actually, I’m a very emotionally stable person and don’t tend toward nonsense. I’m just trying to find some common ground with you. I think you may be missing a lot of realities because you’re so focused on shadows.

I don't focus on shadows unless they are not fulfilled.

Under the New Covenant, God’s “holy days” are all fulfilled in “the Day of Salvation,” which is … today! This is the Day of Salvation. This is the Day the Law and the Prophets spoke of, foreshadowed, pointed to, testified of, prophesied about, predicted, symbolized, typified and preached about. This day that you and I are living in. This day when Jesus has come and fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. Today is the day of Salvation that God before ordained (set aside, limited, set the boundaries of). This is the Day of Salvation, this is the Holy Day that God before ordained that His people would celebrate with gathering together into one body and feasting at the Lord’s Table. This is the day when God’s people would stand at the door of His House and be sprinkled with blood and have their sins atoned. All of God’s holy days of the Old Covenant spoke of a day God had set aside when His people would enjoy all of these wonderful blessings. From feasting on the body of the Passover lamb to being sprinkled by the blood of the goat for Jehovah, from eating of the unleavened bread of Jesus’ sinless body to drawing from the wells of salvation and drinking of the water of life.

The Day of Salvation began with Yeshua's first coming and will end at the end of the Millennium. In between, various aspects of salvation are being fulfilled. It began with our redemption at Passover; continues with living a life free of the leaven of sin, false doctrine, hypocrisy, etc.; the wheat harvest began with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (the former rain) to begin the growing process and awaits the latter rain to complete the harvest before it is reaped (Shavuot); continues with the Day of YHWH wherein YHWH will judge this world, but protect His saints through it (Yom Teruah); continues with the resurrection unto eternal life of those in Messiah at Atonement in a Jubilee year when salvation will become a literal reality; and continues with the Millennial Kingdom ruling over the world (Sukkot) wherein YHWH and Yeshua will Tabernacle among all that are saved. It will end with the beginning of a new era after the Millennium (the Last Great Day). Until that time, there are shadows of those realities for us to obey and celebrate.

You do realize that all these were elements of both the spring AND the fall feasts? It’s simply not true that the spring feasts were shadows of Jesus’ first coming and the fall feasts are shadows of his 2nd coming.

I never said they were.

They are ALL shadows of the heavenly blessings we have now, today, in Jesus. What the 2nd Coming of Jesus will accomplish is what Paul called the "manifestation" of all these spiritual blessings, when the whole creation will be liberated from the corruption and darkness of sin and mortality and will shine with the glory of the presence of all these spiritual blessings that we have in Christ, in a new heavens and new earth, in a new world to come.

We have these blessings by faith, but at the appointed time, they will become literal realities. For example, we do not literally have eternal life now except by faith. Our resurrection from the dead will be unto literal eternal life.

You know, the land of Israel was a shadow of the Messianic Kingdom, not the substance. The Kingdom of Jesus Christ is God’s Kingdom with Jesus reigning over it. Everything that exists, the Kingdom of Heaven and even the kingdoms of this world have been made subject to Jesus, to his authority. The ONLY thing that is not subject to Jesus is the Father Himself, the One who put everything in subjection to His Son. That’s why Jesus is seated in the throne of God at the Father’s right hand. That is the kingdom that the land of Israel was a shadow of, the heavenly country that those Old Testament saints looked for and longed for, even while they lived in the land.

I agree. Yet, the Kingdom of Heaven will become a literal reality on earth at the appointed time (the Millennium).

To me the logical question then would be “if everything is subject to Jesus, if he has authority over everything, including the kingdoms of this world, why then are there enemies of Jesus and of God, why do people continue to sin?" To answer my own question, it's because they are in rebellion against God and against His Christ. And yes, Jesus could in an instant wipe them from the face of the earth. But remember when the village of the Samaritans refused to receive Jesus, and James and John were ready to call fire down from heaven and destroy them? Jesus rebuked them saying: “You know not what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And remember Lot’s encounter with the Lord? He said if there was even one righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah he would not destroy the cities. So pointing out that there are still sinners in the world who do not obey Jesus is not proof that His Kingdom has not come or that he does not reign.

I agree, but as you noted, people are still being saved. We are still fulfilling YHWH's plan of salvation as depicted in the Feasts.

So the only reason the whole world and Jesus’ enemies weren’t burned up the day Christ sat down on the throne of God is that he didn’t come to destroy his enemies, he came to lay down his life as a ransom that everyone everywhere might repent and be saved. Granted, not all will, in fact most will not, the vast majority will not, the vast majority of Jews did not (only a remnant were saved), and the vast majority of Gentiles will not (broad is the way and many go in) but for the sake of saving those few, Jesus allows his enemies to reject him and live in rebellion against his authority, and die in their sins, even while he is busy saving the few, as if he were plucking brands from the fire.

I agree.

And I know you know all these things. But the point is that we don’t lay them aside when we talk about Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law and Prophets. The Scripture says “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,” which means the whole point of prophecy, whether in word or in types and figures and shadows, the message of prophecy, what it is talking about is that it testifies about Jesus, about his person and his work. And if we miss that, we kind of miss the whole point. God didn’t send his Son to bring us to the Law and help us to fulfill it, he sent the Law to bring us to His Son who has fulfilled all these things of the Law and freely ministers them to us, if we can receive them.

Our disobedience to the law drives us to Messiah and to freedom and liberty from sin through him. We were once imprisoned on death row because of our transgressions against the law. But now, the law has led us to Messiah and liberty. Once we are free from sin, Messiah then drives us back to obedience to the law through faith. We become doers of the word, or as Paul says, “doers of the law”, and not hearers only.
How do we know Yeshua is driving us back to obedience to the law through faith? Once again, Romans 3: 30,31 says; “Seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith, do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

The (man-made) holiday of Thanksgiving is upon us and I have many obligations so I will have to withdraw from our chats for a bit, but I wanted to share some thoughts about some of the broader issues so you’ll maybe better understand where I’m coming from on all these details, the little jots and tittles of the Law and Prophets that can be understood in some drastically different ways without some common ground to approach them from. The "Good News" is the ground I approach them from.

Anyway, God’s blessings and whether you celebrate this day of Thanksgiving or not, I pray that we all may live in a spirit of joy and thanksgiving of all the wondrous things God has done for us and given to us through our Lord and Savior Jesus.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I don't have a problem celebrating Thanksgiving like I do with celebrating Christmas and Easter. However, it is interesting how you are trying to teach me all the Feasts have passed away, including the Biblical thanksgiving Feast of Sukkot, yet you replace it with a man made thanksgiving feast. Why would anyone want to cease celebrating the true thanksgiving feast and replace it with a man made feast?

I highly suggest to all Christians that they begin giving thanks to YHWH for His holy days and the joy and light they bring.

 

[Pilgrimer]

I don't focus on shadows unless they are not fulfilled.

Well that’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it? Jesus said till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until ALL the law was fulfilled. And it is self-evident that there are jots and tittles that have certainly passed from the law, lots of them in fact, all those respecting sacrifices and offerings just to begin with. But the problem is Jesus said not one would pass until ALL the law was fulfilled. So I find the idea of partial fulfillment to be inadequate to explain things and contrary to what Jesus said.

The Day of Salvation began with Yeshua's first coming and will end at the end of the Millennium. In between, various aspects of salvation are being fulfilled. It began with our redemption at Passover; continues with living a life free of the leaven of sin, false doctrine, hypocrisy, etc.; the wheat harvest began with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (the former rain) to begin the growing process and awaits the latter rain to complete the harvest before it is reaped (Shavuot); continues with the Day of YHWH wherein YHWH will judge this world, but protect His saints through it (Yom Teruah); continues with the resurrection unto eternal life of those in Messiah at Atonement in a Jubilee year when salvation will become a literal reality; and continues with the Millennial Kingdom ruling over the world (Sukkot) wherein YHWH and Yeshua will Tabernacle among all that are saved. It will end with the beginning of a new era after the Millennium (the Last Great Day). Until that time, there are shadows of those realities for us to obey and celebrate.

That’s a concise summary of the premillennial view of the feasts, but there are a number of problems with it, rather obvious problems if you’re familiar with the actual times and seasons of the land itself and the feasts and rituals and what the Gospels actually teach about it all. For example, Tabernacles and the 7th day of that feast, the “last great day.” But let’s back up and lay a little groundwork.

The former rains were not the spring rains, and by the time of Pentecost in early summer the rains were almost gone for the year. This is what happens when people try to interpret things without an actual working knowledge of the times and seasons of the land. It was the fall rains at the beginning of the civil/agricultural year that begins Tishri 1 that were the “former” rains. After a long dry season the rains would begin again in the fall, sparsely in October and not reaching the maximum rainfall until January/February and then tapering off and ending by Pentecost. Thus the rains of the spring were actually the latter rains, as evidenced by Joel 2:23 when the rains of the first month (Nisan) are called the “latter” rains.

And this is important because the single most important ritual at the feast of Tabernacles in the fall, at the beginning of the civil/agricultural year, was the water-offering ceremony on the 7th day, the “last great day” of the feast. The priests would pour out an offering of water and the whole people would pray as one that the Lord would send the life-giving rains, the former and the latter rains in their seasons, that there might be a harvest in the spring and summer. A dry fall and early winter could mean no grain in spring, and no grain in spring meant no bread. Likewise, a dry late winter and spring meant no fruits in summer, and no fruits in summer meant no wine and no oil. So the water-pouring ceremony on the last day of the feast was a central and important part of Tabernacles.

And it was on that day, after the “Hallel” has been sung, the priests had blown their three-fold blasts from the trumpets, the people were waving a forest of leafy branches toward the altar as the priest poured the water from the Pool of Siloam at the base of the altar, that a voice rang out and Jesus spoke those words that give meaning to this sacred offering: “If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:37-38) So it wasn’t just Pentecost that depicted and was fulfilled by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, but it was also Tabernacles and the important and central offering that foreshadowed the “Living Water” that believers in Jesus would receive. Which we have now if we have received the Holy Spirit.

Look, Tabernacles is where we, the church, are now. Just like Israel of old, those of us who are alive have been delivered from bondage, but we have not yet “crossed the chilly Jordan” and “gone to heaven.” Instead, we are still alive in this old world but this world is not our home, we are strangers and pilgrims on this earth. Meanwhile, we live in these fleshly bodies, our temporary tabernacles, as we travel through the wilderness of this world, a dry and thirsty land. But we are not alone, our God is with us, a cloud of covering by day and a pillar of fire by night, even while we are fed by His hand manna sent down from heaven (the body of Christ, the unleavened, sinless bread of life) and we drink that water that flows from the Rock that was struck (the Holy Spirit poured out upon us through the pierced flesh of Jesus). All these things that Tabernacles were meant to commemorate looking back upon were also shadows pointing forward to a better fulfillment, the reality, which those of us who believe in Jesus have already received, even if we don’t know or understand it all.

We are in the millennial reign of Jesus. What we still look forward to is the new heavens and earth. THAT is when the Kingdom of God, which is a heavenly, spiritual kingdom, that is when it will be “manifested.” In the new heavens and new earth. God’s Kingdom will NEVER be manifested in this old, fallen, sinful, corrupt, dying world. How can it be? What you are talking about when the Kingdom of God, when Heaven, will be manifest on earth, that’s not the millennium of Christs’ reign, that’s the new heavens and new earth, where there will be no more sin, or death, or sickness, or pain, or suffering, or any of the things that plague this fallen old world. That is when we will receive our new bodies, our resurrected/raptured bodies, in that new heavens and new earth, not in this present fallen state.

Be careful not to confuse the millennium with the new earth, which is what I think the premillers do. It won’t be until there is a new earth that heaven will “become reality,” as you put it, but a more accurate way of expressing it is that is when heaven (which is a spiritual, non-material realm) will be manifest in the earth, and in us. It is already a reality, it really does exist, and those of us who have been born again are living in that reality, again, whether we really understand it or not. Heaven is real, and the dividing curtain that once separated us from the presence of Heaven has been torn, the door has been opened, and we now have access not only to the courts but even to the very throne room of Heaven itself. The only thing that remains is for this old world to be cleansed of sin and corruption by the fire of the presence of the Glorified Christ when he returns that will burn away all the dross so that the light of God can shine through a new, cleansed, perfect, eternal heavens and earth, what is commonly called the eternal state. That is what the return of Jesus will accomplish, the material manifestation of the spiritual realities he has already brought to pass.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

I don't have a problem celebrating Thanksgiving like I do with celebrating Christmas and Easter. However, it is interesting how you are trying to teach me all the Feasts have passed away, including the Biblical thanksgiving Feast of Sukkot, yet you replace it with a man made thanksgiving feast. Why would anyone want to cease celebrating the true thanksgiving feast and replace it with a man made feast?

Again, as Christians we do not “cease celebrating the true thanksgiving feast.” The “true feast” is the body and blood of Jesus. People seem to forget that the feasts were "feasts" because the law required sacrifices and offerings and it was portions of these sacrifices and offerings that the people feasted on, that was the central part of the feasts, and all those "feasts" are fulfilled in the body and blood of Jesus, which is the meat and drink that feeds our spirit and gives us life as surely as food and water feeds our bodies and gives it life. And our thanksgiving isn’t a once-a-year celebration, but a spirit of thanksgiving that we walk in continually, morning and evening and throughout all the watches and prayers of the day and the night.

But just because we “walk in the spirit,” that does not mean we don’t have times and seasons of prayer. And in the same way, just because we walk in the spirit of thanksgiving, that doesn’t mean we can’t have a time or season of thanking God. We are continually thankful for the sacrifice of Jesus, but that doesn’t mean we can’t thank God for our food every time we sit down to a meal.

The difference is that our giving thanks is not an act of obedience to a commandment to give thanks, but a voluntary offering of giving thanks out of a grateful heart. It’s not required, it’s not commanded, it’s not an act of obedience, it’s an act of love, freely given, just as God's salvation is an act of His love freely given to us. And that's what the Law was a shadow of, but could never achieve.

I highly suggest to all Christians that they begin giving thanks to YHWH for His holy days and the joy and light they bring.

And I respectfully suggest that it is Jesus who is the light of the world in whom we find joy and peace and rest, not holy days that were shadows of the Lamb.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

P.S. Christmas and Easter are celebrations of the person and work of Jesus. They are not man-made, they are God-ordained times in which God brought to pass His Plan of Salvation. Again, celebrating them is not an act of obedience, it is an act of love.

 

[gadar perets]

Well that’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it? Jesus said till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until ALL the law was fulfilled. And it is self-evident that there are jots and tittles that have certainly passed from the law, lots of them in fact, all those respecting sacrifices and offerings just to begin with. But the problem is Jesus said not one would pass until ALL the law was fulfilled. So I find the idea of partial fulfillment to be inadequate to explain things and contrary to what Jesus said.

So, are you saying heaven and earth have passed away? Is not the passing away of heaven and earth part of "all be fulfilled"? You added the word "law" in "All the law was fulfilled". It is not just the law that must be fulfilled, but everything, including the prophets.

That’s a concise summary of the premillennial view of the feasts, but there are a number of problems with it, rather obvious problems if you’re familiar with the actual times and seasons of the land itself and the feasts and rituals and what the Gospels actually teach about it all. For example, Tabernacles and the 7th day of that feast, the “last great day.” But let’s back up and lay a little groundwork.

The former rains were not the spring rains, and by the time of Pentecost in early summer the rains were almost gone for the year. This is what happens when people try to interpret things without an actual working knowledge of the times and seasons of the land. It was the fall rains at the beginning of the civil/agricultural year that begins Tishri 1 that were the “former” rains. After a long dry season the rains would begin again in the fall, sparsely in October and not reaching the maximum rainfall until January/February and then tapering off and ending by Pentecost. Thus the rains of the spring were actually the latter rains, as evidenced by Joel 2:23 when the rains of the first month (Nisan) are called the “latter” rains.

And this is important because the single most important ritual at the feast of Tabernacles in the fall, at the beginning of the civil/agricultural year, was the water-offering ceremony on the 7th day, the “last great day” of the feast. The priests would pour out an offering of water and the whole people would pray as one that the Lord would send the life-giving rains, the former and the latter rains in their seasons, that there might be a harvest in the spring and summer. A dry fall and early winter could mean no grain in spring, and no grain in spring meant no bread. Likewise, a dry late winter and spring meant no fruits in summer, and no fruits in summer meant no wine and no oil. So the water-pouring ceremony on the last day of the feast was a central and important part of Tabernacles.

And it was on that day, after the “Hallel” has been sung, the priests had blown their three-fold blasts from the trumpets, the people were waving a forest of leafy branches toward the altar as the priest poured the water from the Pool of Siloam at the base of the altar, that a voice rang out and Jesus spoke those words that give meaning to this sacred offering: “If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:37-38) So it wasn’t just Pentecost that depicted and was fulfilled by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, but it was also Tabernacles and the important and central offering that foreshadowed the “Living Water” that believers in Jesus would receive. Which we have now if we have received the Holy Spirit.

Look, Tabernacles is where we, the church, are now. Just like Israel of old, those of us who are alive have been delivered from bondage, but we have not yet “crossed the chilly Jordan” and “gone to heaven.” Instead, we are still alive in this old world but this world is not our home, we are strangers and pilgrims on this earth. Meanwhile, we live in these fleshly bodies, our temporary tabernacles, as we travel through the wilderness of this world, a dry and thirsty land. But we are not alone, our God is with us, a cloud of covering by day and a pillar of fire by night, even while we are fed by His hand manna sent down from heaven (the body of Christ, the unleavened, sinless bread of life) and we drink that water that flows from the Rock that was struck (the Holy Spirit poured out upon us through the pierced flesh of Jesus). All these things that Tabernacles were meant to commemorate looking back upon were also shadows pointing forward to a better fulfillment, the reality, which those of us who believe in Jesus have already received, even if we don’t know or understand it all.

I know full well how the times and seasons of the land work. Please do not assume you are talking to an ignorant man and exalt yourself by categorizing me as such.

Just as the Atonement sacrifice of Yeshua was not fulfilled on the Day of Atonement, so too, the Holy Spirit did not need to fall in the season of Fall as the literal former rain did. Nor does the latter rain of the Holy Spirit need to fall in the Spring. The former rain of the Holy Spirit began after Yeshua planted the seeds of the Gospel in the hearts of his disciples. The harvest then began growing. The latter rain of the Holy Spirit will be poured out in our future just prior to the harvest of souls being reaped at the resurrection. BTW, Shavuot is all about the firstfruits of the wheat harvest. It will be fulfilled when the firsfruits are resurrected from the dead and offered up to YHWH. That is yet in the future which shows Shavuot/Pentecost has NOT been fulfilled yet.

We are in the millennial reign of Jesus.

In your dreams. The millennium will not begin until Satan is bound in the bottomless pit and all the dead in Messiah are resurrected unto eteral life (Revelation 20:1-6).

What we still look forward to is the new heavens and earth. THAT is when the Kingdom of God, which is a heavenly, spiritual kingdom, that is when it will be “manifested.” In the new heavens and new earth. God’s Kingdom will NEVER be manifested in this old, fallen, sinful, corrupt, dying world. How can it be? What you are talking about when the Kingdom of God, when Heaven, will be manifest on earth, that’s not the millennium of Christs’ reign, that’s the new heavens and new earth, where there will be no more sin, or death, or sickness, or pain, or suffering, or any of the things that plague this fallen old world. That is when we will receive our new bodies, our resurrected/raptured bodies, in that new heavens and new earth, not in this present fallen state.

Be careful not to confuse the millennium with the new earth, which is what I think the premillers do. It won’t be until there is a new earth that heaven will “become reality,” as you put it, but a more accurate way of expressing it is that is when heaven (which is a spiritual, non-material realm) will be manifest in the earth, and in us. It is already a reality, it really does exist, and those of us who have been born again are living in that reality, again, whether we really understand it or not. Heaven is real, and the dividing curtain that once separated us from the presence of Heaven has been torn, the door has been opened, and we now have access not only to the courts but even to the very throne room of Heaven itself. The only thing that remains is for this old world to be cleansed of sin and corruption by the fire of the presence of the Glorified Christ when he returns that will burn away all the dross so that the light of God can shine through a new, cleansed, perfect, eternal heavens and earth, what is commonly called the eternal state. That is what the return of Jesus will accomplish, the material manifestation of the spiritual realities he has already brought to pass.

The reign of Messiah and his resurrected people throughout the 1,000 years Satan is bound is the new heavens and new earth. Do not be deceived into thinking an entirely new literal heaven and earth will replace this old one. BTW, the fact that sin still exists awaiting for the glorified Messiah to get rid of that leaven permanently shows why the shadow of the Feast of Unleavened Bread remains. When sin is no more, the FOUB will cease.

 

[gadar perets]

Again, as Christians we do not “cease celebrating the true thanksgiving feast.” The “true feast” is the body and blood of Jesus. People seem to forget that the feasts were "feasts" because the law required sacrifices and offerings and it was portions of these sacrifices and offerings that the people feasted on, that was the central part of the feasts, and all those "feasts" are fulfilled in the body and blood of Jesus, which is the meat and drink that feeds our spirit and gives us life as surely as food and water feeds our bodies and gives it life. And our thanksgiving isn’t a once-a-year celebration, but a spirit of thanksgiving that we walk in continually, morning and evening and throughout all the watches and prayers of the day and the night.

Yes, we are to give thanks throughout the year, but especially after the literal agricultural harvest is complete for another year. Spiritually speaking, when the harvest of souls is complete at the resurrection shortly before the Millennium begins, then we will have the true fulfillment of Sukkot as we give thanks for the harvest of souls unto eternal life.

The difference is that our giving thanks is not an act of obedience to a commandment to give thanks, but a voluntary offering of giving thanks out of a grateful heart. It’s not required, it’s not commanded, it’s not an act of obedience, it’s an act of love, freely given, just as God's salvation is an act of His love freely given to us. And that's what the Law was a shadow of, but could never achieve.

YHWH did not command His people to give thanks at Sukkot. It is a natural fruit, an act of love, freely given of a grateful heart for YHWH's blessings. You deceive yourself if you think Israel was not thankful out of a grateful heart prior to Yeshua's first coming.

And I respectfully suggest that it is Jesus who is the light of the world in whom we find joy and peace and rest, not holy days that were shadows of the Lamb.

Of course he is the light of the world, but he is not the ONLY light YHWH has given this world. YHWH is light, Yeshua's disciples are lights, the law is light (including the holy days), the commandments are a lamp (including the Sabbath). You would put out some of those lights because you falsely believe Yeshua replaced them.

P.S. Christmas and Easter are celebrations of the person and work of Jesus. They are not man-made, they are God-ordained times in which God brought to pass His Plan of Salvation. Again, celebrating them is not an act of obedience, it is an act of love.

Where in Scripture did God ordain believers to celebrate the birth of His Son on December 25 (Christmas) and the resurrection of His Son on the first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox (Easter)? Nowhere. They are man made holidays.

 

[Pilgrimer]

So, are you saying heaven and earth have passed away? Is not the passing away of heaven and earth part of "all be fulfilled"?

Actually, the passing away of this present old world is not foretold in the prophets, only the beginning of the new creation is foretold. There is a Rabbinic saying that the prophets spoke not except of the days of Messiah. Everything that was foretold in the Old Testament, whether through prophecy or through types and shadows, all spoke of the Messianic age, which is now. And the new creation that was foretold has already begun, and we who are alive in Christ, who are “new creatures created in Christ Jesus,” we are part of the new creation, the new Jerusalem is the capitol of it, and every soul that is saved is another stone in the walls of that new city. The passing away of this present old world has not yet come because God is not finished yet with his redemptive work and the new creation He is making and the souls he is saving and raising up in it. When He finishes his new creation, then the old will pass away, just like it wasn’t until the New Covenant was established at the Cross before the Old Covenant passed away.

You added the word "law" in "All the law was fulfilled". It is not just the law that must be fulfilled, but everything, including the prophets.

But what you are saying is that some jots and tittles of the law have been fulfilled and passed away but others have not. That is precisely what Jesus said could not happen. If everything hasn’t been fulfilled, then everything, the whole law, every jot and tittle, is still in force. And yet it is self-evident that is not the case, else God would not have allowed everything He provided for the law's observance to be destroyed.

I know full well how the times and seasons of the land work. Please do not assume you are talking to an ignorant man and exalt yourself by categorizing me as such.

What I assume is that you have been taught these premillennial interpretations, and my point was that since you ARE familiar with the times and seasons and the intricacies of the calendar, I'm counting on that knowledge to lead you to take a critical look at these interpretations, and I'm also counting on you to do so fairly.

The former rain of the Holy Spirit began after Yeshua planted the seeds of the Gospel in the hearts of his disciples. The harvest then began growing.

Here’s a basic idea that I would like you to consider. We have two “testaments.” The Old Testament is the former testament, or the former days, or the former rains when the Spirit of God was given “moderately” as Joel points out: “Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month … and it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

The former rains was the Holy Spirit as it was given “moderately” in the former Old Testament days and only to the select few. But the latter rain in these latter New Testament days is an outpouring upon all flesh, without moderation. Paul says: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son…” (Hebrews 1:1)

The Old Testament with the Mosaic Covenant is the “former” days and the former things. The New Testament with the New Covenant is the “latter” days and the latter things. The former rain was the Holy Spirit given in moderation in the former days to the select few. The latter rain is the Holy Spirit poured out “in these last days” upon all flesh.

The harvest was already ripe when Jesus walked the earth: “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say ye not, there are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? Behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already unto harvest. And he that reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, one soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon you bestowed no labor: other men labored, and you are entered into their labours.”

And there are other verses where Jesus speaks of the Jewish nation already being ready for harvest. He also speaks of the Jewish nation being a vineyard and how it was time to gather in the fruit but when the Lord sent men to collect it they were stoned and driven away and then the Lord of the Vineyard sent his own son whom they killed.

All those parables were about the Jewish nation and the time had come for God to reap the harvest from the seeds that the holy prophets of old had sown and the former rains had watered and to gather in the good seed into God’s storehouse. That’s why God allowed 40 years for the Gospel to be preached to Jews everywhere, beginning in Jerusalem and then in Judaea and Samaria and to every nation of the Diaspora where Jews had been scattered. And that’s why in the Revelation the 144,000 symbolic number for all the saved Jews are called the “firstfruits,” because their souls are the firstfruits of the harvest of the Gospel (the Gospel was to the Jew first, then to the Gentiles). And after the good seed was gathered into God’s storehouse, then the end came with a firey judgment and punishment when millions of Jews were slain in that firey/bloody 7-year war, the last of Daniel’s 70 weeks allotted to the Jewish nation when the chaff was gathered and burned up.

And so ended the former things, after they were fulfilled by the establishment of the latter things. Old Testament/New Testament. Old Covenant/New Covenant. Former Days/Latter Days. Former Rain/Latter Rain.

The premillennial view just basically ignores the Jewish nation, both in terms of the preaching of the Gospel and the salvation of multitudes of Jews, the first members of Christ’s body and actually the very foundation of the church. The premil view also completely ignores the catastrophic end of the Old Covenant and the Jewish state in the generation of the coming of Jesus as if it doesn’t mean anything or somehow doesn’t count. They are gravely mistaken.

The reign of Messiah and his resurrected people throughout the 1,000 years Satan is bound is the new heavens and new earth. Do not be deceived into thinking an entirely new literal heaven and earth will replace this old one.

Not so. The Revelation states that “when the thousand years are expired, Satan will be loosed” and will attack the camp of the saints and the beloved city and God will rain down fire from heaven and devour them and then heaven and earth will flee away from the face of Jesus as he appears seated on his throne and all the dead are raised to stand before him in judgment. That is when this present old heavens and earth will pass away and there will be a new heavens and a new earth, after the 1000 years are expired, not during the 1000 years.

BTW, the fact that sin still exists awaiting for the glorified Messiah to get rid of that leaven permanently shows why the shadow of the Feast of Unleavened Bread remains. When sin is no more, the FOUB will cease.

The unleavened bread does not represent our bodies, it represented the body of Jesus. That’s why during that last Passover he took that unleavened bread and broke it and gave it to his disciples telling them to eat it, that it was his body which was broken for them. That was fulfilled, and that “bread,” that sinless body that was sacrificed for us, that’s the bread that those of us who are saved must eat if we are to have life.

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body … Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him. As the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.”

Those of us who belong to Christ, who eat of this sacrifice, who eat this unleavened bread which is the body of Christ, we already have eternal life, our old dead spirit has already been raised up to life in God’s Kingdom, and on the very last day the Christ who dwells in us will also raise up our mortal bodies to immortality in a new heavens and new earth where sin and death itself will cease to exist.

I know that’s not what the premillennial view teaches, but that’s what the Gospel teaches.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Spiritually speaking, when the harvest of souls is complete at the resurrection shortly before the Millennium begins, then we will have the true fulfillment of Sukkot as we give thanks for the harvest of souls unto eternal life.

But Tabernacles commemorated dwelling in temporary tabernacles after being delivered from sin and before entering into the promised land. According to the view above it was about dwelling in permanent tabernacles after entering the promised land. Fulfillment cannot be something completely different from the shadow it fulfills, else people can just make up whatever they want and there is no truth to test it against.

You deceive yourself if you think Israel was not thankful out of a grateful heart prior to Yeshua's first coming.

I don’t think I am the one being deceived. God destroyed the nation of Israel in the days of Jesus’ first coming, so you can argue that their hearts were right with God but the truth is written in the dust and rubble.

Only a remnant of Jews were saved out of the whole nation, which is exactly what Jesus foretold … narrow is the way to life and few will find it was not just spoken of the Gentiles.

Of course he is the light of the world, but he is not the ONLY light YHWH has given this world. YHWH is light, Yeshua's disciples are lights, the law is light (including the holy days), the commandments are a lamp (including the Sabbath). You would put out some of those lights because you falsely believe Yeshua replaced them.

I correctly believe Jesus fulfilled them, every one.

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men … that was the true Light.” John 1:4,9

As I stated earlier, if you study all these former shadows and they are not "shedding light" on the person and work of Jesus Christ, then you are not correctly understanding what they testify to.

Where in Scripture did God ordain believers to celebrate the birth of His Son on December 25 (Christmas) and the resurrection of His Son on the first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox (Easter)? Nowhere. They are man made holidays.

Of course it was God who ordained when Messiah would be born and when he would suffer and die and when he would rise from the dead. That we believers choose to celebrate the most important dates in the history of the world, not to mention the events that brought about our own salvation, is certainly not a sin. And I find it strange that anyone would think it is.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer