Shadows and Realities

[Pilgrimer]

What is the triune nature of God? Our body and spirit are not separate persons that make up our nature. They are simply part of us. Yet, the trinity makes the Son to be part of God's nature? Sorry, but that is not in Scripture.

I think God being spirit makes it much more difficult to understand his nature, it is much more complex than our human nature. We are told that Christ existed in the form of God (I assume that means existed in spirit) before he took on himself the form of a servant and became flesh. And Jesus once said if we have seen him, we have seen the father. I don't think he meant if we see his face we have seen God because God is spirit, Jesus in the flesh is fully human. But Jesus' spirit, his was not the spirit of a man, his was the Spirit of God. Which stands to reason since God was literally his father. It's what makes him unique among all the people that have or ever will live. Jesus was more than just a man blessed by God, or a man in whom the spirit of God dwelled. I can't explain it, I don't really understand it all myself, but what I know is that Jesus Christ was as human as you and I are as far as flesh and blood goes, but in the spirit he was much more than a man. In the same way that a son born of a human is human, the Son born of God is God.

But I have to admit I have difficult getting my head around things like God being Omni-present too, not subject to time and space, so having difficulty understanding how three persons can be one spirit is a bit over my head as well.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

This is all just wishful thinking.

As a student of New Testament archaeology I can assure you the destruction of the entire Mosaic economy is not wishful thinking, it is stark reality.

While the sacrifices on the feast days have passed away, the days themselves have not.

But everything I have read in Scripture on this subject is about the feasts passing away, not the days on which the feasts were celebrated passing away. That's very much like conversations I've had when I've tried to explain that the Law of Moses passing away doesn't mean that the Old Testament Books of Moses have disappeared from the earth, but that the practice of the Law and the things that pertained to that practice as it was observed in Old Covenant times, have passed away.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

I think God being spirit makes it much more difficult to understand his nature, it is much more complex than our human nature. We are told that Christ existed in the form of God (I assume that means existed in spirit) before he took on himself the form of a servant and became flesh.

I take that to mean Yeshua was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit and power that he was like Elohim. Paul was talking about the man, Messiah Yeshua. He was not talking about a pre-existent spirit being.

And Jesus once said if we have seen him, we have seen the father. I don't think he meant if we see his face we have seen God because God is spirit, Jesus in the flesh is fully human. But Jesus' spirit, his was not the spirit of a man, his was the Spirit of God. Which stands to reason since God was literally his father.

Yeshua was a man with his own spirit just like any other man. He was also filled with the indwelling Spirit of God.

Jesus was more than just a man blessed by God, or a man in whom the spirit of God dwelled. I can't explain it, I don't really understand it all myself, but what I know is that Jesus Christ was as human as you and I are as far as flesh and blood goes, but in the spirit he was much more than a man. In the same way that a son born of a human is human, the Son born of God is God.

The Apostles were mistaken to be gods because of their miracle working power. The same is true of Yeshua. The miracles he worked were done through the indwelling Spirit of his Father YHWH. As for your last sentence above, that only holds when like kinds mate. Yeshua had an earthly mother and no earthly father. His Father did not mate with a human. Yeshua was miraculously conceived by YHWH's Holy Spirit power.

 

[gadar perets]

As a student of New Testament archaeology I can assure you the destruction of the entire Mosaic economy is not wishful thinking, it is stark reality.

The two greatest commandments as well as all Ten Commandments were part of the Mosaic economy. Why weren't they destroyed?

But everything I have read in Scripture on this subject is about the feasts passing away, not the days on which the feasts were celebrated passing away.

That's because you are learning from people who don't keep the Feasts and who misinterpret the associated Scriptures. Try seeing them from the point of view of someone that keeps the Feasts.

 

[Pilgrimer]

I take that to mean Yeshua was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit and power that he was like Elohim. Paul was talking about the man, Messiah Yeshua. He was not talking about a pre-existent spirit being.

Yeshua was a man with his own spirit just like any other man. He was also filled with the indwelling Spirit of God.

The Apostles were mistaken to be gods because of their miracle working power. The same is true of Yeshua. The miracles he worked were done through the indwelling Spirit of his Father YHWH. As for your last sentence above, that only holds when like kinds mate. Yeshua had an earthly mother and no earthly father. His Father did not mate with a human. Yeshua was miraculously conceived by YHWH's Holy Spirit power.

I take that to mean Yeshua was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit and power that he was like Elohim. Paul was talking about the man, Messiah Yeshua. He was not talking about a pre-existent spirit being.

“… Jesus Christ: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.”

I would be interested to hear how you parse this passage to mean something other than what to me is the plain sense, that Jesus Christ existed in spirit even before his incarnation.

But perhaps, more to the point, you said, “Yeshua was a man with his own spirit just like any other man.”

From everything I have seen in Scripture and experienced in my walk with God, there have only been two beings who have ever existed who were absolutely perfect, righteous, holy, totally without sin, and that is God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son.

So how do you explain Jesus? If he was “just like any other man” how did he live a life in human flesh so pure and sinless that his death was an acceptable sacrifice for sin?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

The two greatest commandments as well as all Ten Commandments were part of the Mosaic economy. Why weren't they destroyed?

They are fulfilled by those who have been rebirthed (if I might use that term).

Jesus is our example of how we are to walk with God. He loved the Father and loved people in a way no other ever has. But Jesus didn’t love people because he was commanded to, because God said “you will love.” Jesus loved people because his heart broke in loving compassion for those who suffered, those who were lost, those who were broken and lonely. Jesus wasn’t obeying “thou shalt” or “thou shalt not,” Jesus genuinely loved because that’s who he was.

It’s not true that if you are not following the commandments you are breaking them. Those of us in whom the Spirit of God dwells, we don’t love God because he told us to. We love God because He has poured His love into us and we have tasted how perfect, how wondrous, how merciful God is, that he would deign to reach down His holy hand and touch us filthy, unworthy, sinful people, and would lift us up to live with Him. When God pours His love out on us, we can’t help but love him back. And that love He pours into our hearts fills us and overflows onto everyone around us, and we genuinely love others, not because we are commanded to, but because we have been given a new heart, filled to overflowing with a love that pure and genuine and divine.

To be honest, keeping covenant with God according to the Old Mosaic Law would be easier. It is a covenant of commandments to do this and do that and not the other. But keeping covenant with God according to the New Gospel Faith? A covenant of submission to and walking in the spirit? It is heart-wrenching, soul-searching, self-crucifying, God-glorifying … labor.

That's because you are learning from people who don't keep the Feasts and who misinterpret the associated Scriptures. Try seeing them from the point of view of someone that keeps the Feasts.

Please don’t be insulting. Studying the Scripture, carefully and diligently and prayerfully, has been my life’s work. And I can in good conscience say that, God the Father be my witness, none of the things I am sharing with you were taught to me by any man or woman.

I learned many years ago that the cornerstone of knowledge and wisdom in the things of God is not “the point of view of someone who keeps the feasts,” but is instead the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And it is from that point of view that I read, study, consider, measure, weigh, judge, and conclude doctrine.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[farouk]

If that were true Bible students would agree on everything. But I'm afraid Scripture is very much up to widely different interpretations, and they seem to be as common as noses.



And we also must not reject fulfillment simply because we believe Jesus has not fulfilled all types and shadows.

So an honest question: if Jesus has not fulfilled the fall feasts, why did their observance pass away along with all the rest? Can a shadow pass away without having been fulfilled?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

The question is, Does the church really replace Israel in everything?

 

[Pilgrimer]

The question is, Does the church really replace Israel in everything?

The church includes Israel.

For me, one of the easiest ways of understanding Israel's place in God's plan is to consider the New Jerusalem, which is what the church as a whole looks like in the spirit. The twelves gates of the church are the 12 tribes of redeemed Israel, Old and New Testament. But we also see the prophets and apostles hold a special place in the church in that they are the foundation walls. The rest, the Gentiles, are living stones added to that foundation. And of course Jesus is the cornerstone of the whole structure.

So redeemed Israel is part of the church, a rather special part of the church being the foundation upon whom and the gates through whom Gentiles enter into God's kingdom. So Israel had a primary, first, foundational role in the assembly of God's church.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[CoreIssue]

Israel is not church but joint heirs with church:

New International Version
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[farouk]

The church includes Israel.

For me, one of the easiest ways of understanding Israel's place in God's plan is to consider the New Jerusalem, which is what the church as a whole looks like in the spirit. The twelves gates of the church are the 12 tribes of redeemed Israel, Old and New Testament. But we also see the prophets and apostles hold a special place in the church in that they are the foundation walls. The rest, the Gentiles, are living stones added to that foundation. And of course Jesus is the cornerstone of the whole structure.

So redeemed Israel is part of the church, a rather special part of the church being the foundation upon whom and the gates through whom Gentiles enter into God's kingdom. So Israel had a primary, first, foundational role in the assembly of God's church.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Thanks; my understanding from 1 Cor. 10.32 is that Jews and the church are distinct ('Jew...Gentile...church of God') and that this distinction is fundamental to a dispensational understanding of Scripture.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Thanks; my understanding from 1 Cor. 10.32 is that Jews and the church are distinct ('Jew...Gentile...church of God') and that this distinction is fundamental to a dispensational understanding of Scripture.

Then that would make Gentiles and the church distinct as well. So who's left to make up the church?

I think Paul was saying to not give offense to God's church or to the Jews and Gentiles outside the church that they might be saved.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[farouk]

Then that would make Gentiles and the church distinct as well. So who's left to make up the church?

I think Paul was saying to not give offense to God's church or to the Jews and Gentiles outside the church that they might be saved.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

The church is composed of those called out of both Judaism and Gentiles: this happened in Acts; and the Epistles were addressed to churches, which were from a mixed Jewish and Gentile background.

 

[Pilgrimer]

The church is composed of those called out of both Judaism and Gentiles: this happened in Acts; and the Epistles were addressed to churches, which were from a mixed Jewish and Gentile background.

Agreed.

 

[gadar perets]

“… Jesus Christ: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.”

I would be interested to hear how you parse this passage to mean something other than what to me is the plain sense, that Jesus Christ existed in spirit even before his incarnation.

What does verse 5 mean? "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yeshua:". Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua . If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yeshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

As a child, Yeshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him" (Luke 2:40). Even at that time Yeshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Luke 2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form (or likeness) of God." It does not say he "was God." Yet, Yeshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself YHWH's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Philippians 2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Yeshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father YHWH. As a reward for his obedience, YHWH has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yeshua did.

But perhaps, more to the point, you said, “Yeshua was a man with his own spirit just like any other man.”

You took my words out of context. I said he was "just like any other man" as far as having his own spirit. He is also just like any other man as far as having his own brain, arms, legs, etc. Whatever man has, Yeshua had (except a fallen nature) because he was a 100% male human being.

From everything I have seen in Scripture and experienced in my walk with God, there have only been two beings who have ever existed who were absolutely perfect, righteous, holy, totally without sin, and that is God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son.

I agree.

So how do you explain Jesus? If he was “just like any other man” how did he live a life in human flesh so pure and sinless that his death was an acceptable sacrifice for sin?

By doing the will of his Father.

 

[gadar perets]

They are fulfilled by those who have been rebirthed (if I might use that term).

Not true. If this were true, then we would all be sinless. The fact is, those who claim to be rebirthed still commit adultery, fornicate, steal, etc.

Jesus is our example of how we are to walk with God. He loved the Father and loved people in a way no other ever has. But Jesus didn’t love people because he was commanded to, because God said “you will love.” Jesus loved people because his heart broke in loving compassion for those who suffered, those who were lost, those who were broken and lonely. Jesus wasn’t obeying “thou shalt” or “thou shalt not,” Jesus genuinely loved because that’s who he was.

I agree. We are all to keep YHWH's commandments out of love for Him and our neighbors.

It’s not true that if you are not following the commandments you are breaking them.

1 John 3:4

Those of us in whom the Spirit of God dwells, we don’t love God because he told us to. We love God because He has poured His love into us and we have tasted how perfect, how wondrous, how merciful God is, that he would deign to reach down His holy hand and touch us filthy, unworthy, sinful people, and would lift us up to live with Him. When God pours His love out on us, we can’t help but love him back. And that love He pours into our hearts fills us and overflows onto everyone around us, and we genuinely love others, not because we are commanded to, but because we have been given a new heart, filled to overflowing with a love that pure and genuine and divine.

I agree. Yet, there are times believers sin by breaking His laws.

To be honest, keeping covenant with God according to the Old Mosaic Law would be easier. It is a covenant of commandments to do this and do that and not the other. But keeping covenant with God according to the New Gospel Faith? A covenant of submission to and walking in the spirit? It is heart-wrenching, soul-searching, self-crucifying, God-glorifying … labor.

I agree. Yet, many people can't even keep the simple laws given through Moses.

Please don’t be insulting.

No insult was intended.

Studying the Scripture, carefully and diligently and prayerfully, has been my life’s work. And I can in good conscience say that, God the Father be my witness, none of the things I am sharing with you were taught to me by any man or woman.

That makes two of us.

I learned many years ago that the cornerstone of knowledge and wisdom in the things of God is not “the point of view of someone who keeps the feasts,” but is instead the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And it is from that point of view that I read, study, consider, measure, weigh, judge, and conclude doctrine.

I agree, but the Gospel does NOT do away with the Law. You deceive yourself if you think you are fulfilling YHWH's laws simply by being rebirthed or by having faith in Yeshua.

 

[bbyrd009]

the trinity makes the Son to be part of God's nature? Sorry, but that is not in Scripture.

wow, i like that, who said that? Can't find it.
of course "trinity" is not either, right

 

[bbyrd009]

The church is composed of those called out of both Judaism and Gentiles

would this necessarily mean that they are no longer Jews or Gentiles to the world, or to their peers' pov?
or is the Church also composed of those "called out" of Christianity?
Christians being defined herenow as Gentiles iow

 

[Pilgrimer]

What does verse 5 mean? "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yeshua:". Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua . If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yeshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

As a child, Yeshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him" (Luke 2:40). Even at that time Yeshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Luke 2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form (or likeness) of God." It does not say he "was God." Yet, Yeshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself YHWH's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Philippians 2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Yeshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father YHWH. As a reward for his obedience, YHWH has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yeshua did.


You took my words out of context. I said he was "just like any other man" as far as having his own spirit. He is also just like any other man as far as having his own brain, arms, legs, etc. Whatever man has, Yeshua had (except a fallen nature) because he was a 100% male human being.


I agree.


By doing the will of his Father.

I agree completely that Jesus was fully human, and in terms of his flesh and blood existence, he had a conception and a birth when his fleshly life began. No question about that.

But what I’m asking you is about that part you slipped in, that Jesus was completely human, just like everyone else, except he didn’t have a fallen nature.

What does that mean?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Not true. If this were true, then we would all be sinless. The fact is, those who claim to be rebirthed still commit adultery, fornicate, steal, etc.

But of course. Being born again of the spirit doesn’t mean we are suddenly perfect people. But it does mean that we are now spiritually alive and can commune with a spiritual God. Indeed, we can’t have any fellowship with God, who is spirit, unless He first raises us to spiritual life. But that doesn’t mean we are suddenly perfect. We are rebirthed as newborn babes spiritually and we have to study and learn and pray and grow and mature. But as we grow and mature we will better be able to resist the temptations that we are so susceptible to, and can more and more live a life that is pleasing to our Father.

I agree. We are all to keep YHWH's commandments out of love for Him and our neighbors.

I’m not sure if you missed my point or simply ignored it. The point is that under the New Covenant we don’t obey commandments to love, we submit ourselves to the Spirit and let God’s love flow through us.

I agree, but the Gospel does NOT do away with the Law.

The New Covenant has fulfilled the Old Covenant and the Old Covenant has passed away. That is what the destruction of the Mosaic economy and the Jewish state in the generation of Jesus’ first coming was all about. The Old Covenant is no longer in force and cannot be observed as it was commanded.

“The Law” still exists. It is recorded in over 900 million copies of the Bible. But the Old Covenant, and everything that God provided for its observance, no longer exists. It has passed away.

I You deceive yourself if you think you are fulfilling YHWH's laws simply by being rebirthed or by having faith in Yeshua.

Actually, for those under the New Covenant, the Law in its entirety is being fulfilled in our lives, whether we are aware of it or not. And that includes each of the feasts and sabbaths and new moons and all the times and seasons and every jot and tittle that was required for their observance. It’s just a shame that so few are aware of the riches that we have been given through faith in Christ, or understand what the Law has to teach us about them.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

wow, i like that, who said that? Can't find it.
of course "trinity" is not either, right

Shadows and Realities