Shadows and Realities

[gadar perets]

I agree completely that Jesus was fully human, and in terms of his flesh and blood existence, he had a conception and a birth when his fleshly life began. No question about that.

But what I’m asking you is about that part you slipped in, that Jesus was completely human, just like everyone else, except he didn’t have a fallen nature.

What does that mean?

In other words, Yeshua did not inherit anything from Adam's fall, ie; sin nature, fallen nature, the curse of death, or whatever else man can conjure up, since he did not have an earthly father. When Yeshua was made, he was made perfect as Adam was before the fall.

 

[gadar perets]

But of course. Being born again of the spirit doesn’t mean we are suddenly perfect people. But it does mean that we are now spiritually alive and can commune with a spiritual God. Indeed, we can’t have any fellowship with God, who is spirit, unless He first raises us to spiritual life. But that doesn’t mean we are suddenly perfect. We are rebirthed as newborn babes spiritually and we have to study and learn and pray and grow and mature. But as we grow and mature we will better be able to resist the temptations that we are so susceptible to, and can more and more live a life that is pleasing to our Father.

I totally agree. However, when we fail to do what pleases our Father, the Law is there to point out our sin so we can confess it and repent of it (Romans 3:20).

I’m not sure if you missed my point or simply ignored it. The point is that under the New Covenant we don’t obey commandments to love, we submit ourselves to the Spirit and let God’s love flow through us.

I know what your point was and I did not ignore it. I answered that we keep the commandments out of love (the love that is in our hearts as a result of first being loved by YHWH). We do not love because we are commanded to love. It comes naturally as a result of salvation. Obedience to the Law is a fruit of our salvation, not the means to it.

The New Covenant has fulfilled the Old Covenant and the Old Covenant has passed away. That is what the destruction of the Mosaic economy and the Jewish state in the generation of Jesus’ first coming was all about. The Old Covenant is no longer in force and cannot be observed as it was commanded.

Yes, the New Covenant replaces the OC. What Law is written on hearts and minds in the NC? Torah (Jeremiah 31:33).

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law [TORAH] in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
​

The same Torah as under the OC is now ministered in a new way under the NC. It is no longer an external list of do and don'ts, but an internal guide. The Holy Spirit will cause us to obey YHWH's laws if we allow it to do so.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

As Paul said, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31). That means the Law firmly stands because of our faith.

“The Law” still exists. It is recorded in over 900 million copies of the Bible. But the Old Covenant, and everything that God provided for its observance, no longer exists. It has passed away.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
​

Has all been filfilled? No. Has heaven and earth passed? No. Therefore, the Law stands.

Actually, for those under the New Covenant, the Law in its entirety is being fulfilled in our lives, whether we are aware of it or not. And that includes each of the feasts and sabbaths and new moons and all the times and seasons and every jot and tittle that was required for their observance. It’s just a shame that so few are aware of the riches that we have been given through faith in Christ, or understand what the Law has to teach us about them.

The Law can only be fulfilled in our lives when we walk in love (Romans 13:10). If we steal from our neighbor or covet our neighbor's spouse, we have broken the Law and failed to love our neighbor. If we cause another to work on the Sabbath, we fail to love that person by robbing them of the blessing of rest from their labors.

 

[bbyrd009]

Shadows and Realities

ah, i am surprised, i've liked what little else i have read from pilgrimer, hmm

 

[Pilgrimer]

In other words, Yeshua did not inherit anything from Adam's fall, ie; sin nature, fallen nature, the curse of death, or whatever else man can conjure up, since he did not have an earthly father. When Yeshua was made, he was made perfect as Adam was before the fall.

I don’t agree that Adam was made perfect. He was made good, but not perfect. Only God is perfect. And as good as Adam was when he was created, he sinned. Jesus didn’t. So simply saying Jesus was like Adam was before the fall does not explain how Jesus lived without sinning, something even Adam, who did not have a “fallen nature” at the time of his disobedience, still could not do.

Would you even consider the possibility that, since Jesus’ father was quite literally God, that maybe Jesus had something of his Father’s nature in addition to his human nature? And maybe having something of the nature of his father, who alone is perfect and without sin, maybe that has something to do with how Jesus lived a life no other human has ever been able to live, not even Adam before the fall. I mean after all, God quite literally “begot” Jesus (and please don’t blaspheme that holy conception by suggesting it had anything to do with “mating”). But if God is literally Jesus’ father, then surely Jesus bears something of the nature of His Father. And since God is spirit, it would only be logical that it would be in Jesus’ spirit that we would expect to see the nature of God. And maybe it was this spiritual nature that Jesus was born with that made him able to overcome the temptations of the flesh and live a perfect, sinless life.

Isn’t that possible?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[CoreIssue]

I don’t agree that Adam was made perfect. He was made good, but not perfect. Only God is perfect. And as good as Adam was when he was created, he sinned. Jesus didn’t. So simply saying Jesus was like Adam was before the fall does not explain how Jesus lived without sinning, something even Adam, who did not have a “fallen nature” at the time of his disobedience, still could not do.

Would you even consider the possibility that, since Jesus’ father was quite literally God, that maybe Jesus had something of his Father’s nature in addition to his human nature? And maybe having something of the nature of his father, who alone is perfect and without sin, maybe that has something to do with how Jesus lived a life no other human has ever been able to live, not even Adam before the fall. I mean after all, God quite literally “begot” Jesus (and please don’t blaspheme that holy conception by suggesting it had anything to do with “mating”). But if God is literally Jesus’ father, then surely Jesus bears something of the nature of His Father. And since God is spirit, it would only be logical that it would be in Jesus’ spirit that we would expect to see the nature of God. And maybe it was this spiritual nature that Jesus was born with that made him able to overcome the temptations of the flesh and live a perfect, sinless life.

Isn’t that possible?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Adam was created innocent. Jesus was not, he knew good from evil.

So while Jesus did not have a sin nature, he was fully capable of sinning. He had to be to be human.

Jesus' spirit is fully God.

Yet, he chose to live as fully man. So forget that the human/God nature.

Forget trying to understand that completely. It is beyond our ability.

 

[Pilgrimer]

We are wading into deep waters here, so please be open.

I totally agree. However, when we fail to do what pleases our Father, the Law is there to point out our sin so we can confess it and repent of it (Romans 3:20).

Precisely. And that’s what Paul teaches us in 2 Corinthians 3. Read that whole chapter. Over and over and over.

The Law, the written commandments, the letter of the Law, “ministers death.” Yes, it “points out our sin,” (ministers condemnation) but more than that, it also (ministers death) points out that the wages of sin is death. And by the letter of the Law there is no sacrifice for sin, no temple, no altar, no priesthood, no atonement, no forgiveness for sin, no reconciliation with God, no feasting and fellowship with our Father. According to the letter of the Law, we cannot please God, because according to the letter of the Law we’re dead in our sins, cut off from God and without hope.

But notice it doesn’t stop there. Paul also teaches us that the “spirit” of the Law “ministers life.” And that’s what I’m trying to get you to look at and consider. Look beyond the veil of Jesus’ flesh and look at the spirit of the man. Look beyond the letter of the law and look at the spirit of the Law. The things of God are spiritual, heavenly, and that’s where life is, that’s where forgiveness of sin is, and reconciliation with God, and that’s where there is feasting and fellowship with the Father. That’s where His kingdom is. That’s where His Temple is. In the spirit. That’s where we observe the feasts, all of them, every jot and tittle.

If you think the kingdom of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, the Temple on Mt. Moriah, the courts and gates and walls of those earthly shadows, if you think they were glorious, how much more glorious is the heavenly reality that those earthly shadows were patterned after?

If we live according to the letter of the law and its shadows we will die. But if we live according to the spirit of the law and its heavenly realities we will live. And that’s not just true of some of the Law, of some of the sacrifices, of some of the feasts, of some of the sabbaths, it’s true of all the Law, every jot and tittle.

We don’t have to understand all those jots and tittles, and how they were fulfilled, it is enough that we understand what those things teach us, that Jesus Christ was put to death in the flesh so that we might be washed of our sins and be restored to spiritual fellowship with our Heavenly Father. And everything in the letter of the Law was a shadow of the blessings that flow from that one great truth, Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know what your point was and I did not ignore it. I answered that we keep the commandments out of love (the love that is in our hearts as a result of first being loved by YHWH). We do not love because we are commanded to love. It comes naturally as a result of salvation. Obedience to the Law is a fruit of our salvation, not the means to it.

You are talking about being obedient to the letter of the Law, but the letter of the Law says you must obey all the commandments, which it is self-evident is impossible, so no, you’re actually not obeying the Law. In all honesty, instead of talking about “obedience to the Law” all you can really talk about is “obedience to some of God’s commandments.”

Yes, the New Covenant replaces the OC. What Law is written on hearts and minds in the NC? Torah (Jeremiah 31:33).

The Law written in our hearts is the spirit of the Law, not the letter. (read 2 Corinthians 3 again and again)

The same Torah as under the OC is now ministered in a new way under the NC …

I agree, but I contend that is true of ALL the Law, including the fall feasts, and the sabbaths, and the entire calendar of all the times and seasons of the land. But you are saying that some of the commandments have not yet been fulfilled in the New Covenant and therefore they are to be observed in the OC way.

Has all been filfilled? No. Has heaven and earth passed? No. Therefore, the Law stands.

I think that's got things mixed up. Yes, the whole Law, every jot and tittle, has been fulfilled, and having been fulfilled it passed away. That’s what Jesus said. Not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until ALL the Law was fulfilled. It was all fulfilled in the generation of the coming of Jesus and it all passed away in the last days of that generation.

Also, when Paul says that through our faith we “establish” the Law, he is not speaking of the Old Covenant letter of the Law (which were earthly shadows) but the New Covenant spirit of the Law (the heavenly realities). And even though this present heavens and earth pass away and never rise again, the heavenly realities that is the spirit of the Law will stand forever and will never pass away.

So Paul wasn't saying that by faith we establish the OC letter of the Law, which was temporal, earthly shadows, but that we establish the NC spirit of the Law, which are eternal, heavenly realities.

The Law can only be fulfilled in our lives when we walk in love (Romans 13:10). If we steal from our neighbor or covet our neighbor's spouse, we have broken the Law and failed to love our neighbor. If we cause another to work on the Sabbath, we fail to love that person by robbing them of the blessing of rest from their labors.

No my friend, that’s not loving people. Loving people is sharing our earthly goods with the needy, honoring our neighbor’s spouse, but most importantly loving people is sharing with them the good news that this is the day that God has ordained that we can lay down our burdens of sin and can come to Jesus and find rest for our weary souls, water for our thirsty tongue, manna for our hungry hearts, and unconditional love from our Heavenly Father. The difference is the ministry of death teaching people that obedience lies in taking a day off work, or the ministry of life in resting in the finished work of the Savior.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

I don’t agree that Adam was made perfect. He was made good, but not perfect. Only God is perfect. And as good as Adam was when he was created, he sinned. Jesus didn’t. So simply saying Jesus was like Adam was before the fall does not explain how Jesus lived without sinning, something even Adam, who did not have a “fallen nature” at the time of his disobedience, still could not do.

I meant "perfect" as far as being without sin. Adam and Yeshua were alike when they were first created; sinless. Adam chose to sin and Yeshua chose not to. Yeshua's sinlessness had nothing to do with him having the nature of his Father. What does that even mean? What kind of nature does YHWH have? A divine nature? Yeshua did not have a divine nature inherent within himself. He did, however, partake of the Father's divine nature through the indwelling Holy Spirit as do all believers (2 Peter 1:4).

Would you even consider the possibility that, since Jesus’ father was quite literally God, that maybe Jesus had something of his Father’s nature in addition to his human nature? And maybe having something of the nature of his father, who alone is perfect and without sin, maybe that has something to do with how Jesus lived a life no other human has ever been able to live, not even Adam before the fall. I mean after all, God quite literally “begot” Jesus (and please don’t blaspheme that holy conception by suggesting it had anything to do with “mating”). But if God is literally Jesus’ father, then surely Jesus bears something of the nature of His Father. And since God is spirit, it would only be logical that it would be in Jesus’ spirit that we would expect to see the nature of God. And maybe it was this spiritual nature that Jesus was born with that made him able to overcome the temptations of the flesh and live a perfect, sinless life.

Isn’t that possible?

Possible, but highly improbable. Yeshua could have his Father's nature IF he was begotten through "mating", but we both agree that is not how he came to be. If he was a pre-existent spirit being in heaven who already had his Father's nature and was later miniaturized and put in Miriam's womb, then Miriam would only be a surrogate mother. That is also untrue. I believe the Father spoke the Son into existence (His spoken words and thoughts - logos - became flesh). YHWH, through the power of His Holy Spirit, miraculously caused Miriam's egg to become fertilized with the necessary DNA to create a human male.

If Yeshua overcame sin through his own inherent divine nature, then much of the what the NT says about overcoming sin cannot apply to us because we cannot overcome sin in that way. We are told in Hebrews 4:15;

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
​

This is written for us to understand that Yeshua was just like us. If he overcame sin through his divine nature, then what does it matter if he was tempted like us? He would have overcome the temptation with no problem. Yet, we are told to be perfect/complete and to go and sin no more. Why are we told this if it cannot be accomplished? I believe the more we walk in the Spirit and in love, the more possible it becomes to not sin. We will never be sinless because we have all sinned before receiving Yeshua, but we can sin less and less and possibly never again depending on how deep our relationship with the Father and Son is and whether or not we choose to not sin when temptation comes. Since we partake of the divine nature through the indwelling Holy Spirit, it is that nature that will help us overcome sin. In fact, it is the Spirit's work to cause us to not sin by obeying YHWH's laws (Ezekiel 36).

 

[gadar perets]

Precisely. And that’s what Paul teaches us in 2 Corinthians 3. Read that whole chapter. Over and over and over.

The Law, the written commandments, the letter of the Law, “ministers death.” Yes, it “points out our sin,” (ministers condemnation) but more than that, it also (ministers death) points out that the wages of sin is death. And by the letter of the Law there is no sacrifice for sin, no temple, no altar, no priesthood, no atonement, no forgiveness for sin, no reconciliation with God, no feasting and fellowship with our Father. According to the letter of the Law, we cannot please God, because according to the letter of the Law we’re dead in our sins, cut off from God and without hope.

But notice it doesn’t stop there. Paul also teaches us that the “spirit” of the Law “ministers life.” And that’s what I’m trying to get you to look at and consider. Look beyond the veil of Jesus’ flesh and look at the spirit of the man. Look beyond the letter of the law and look at the spirit of the Law. The things of God are spiritual, heavenly, and that’s where life is, that’s where forgiveness of sin is, and reconciliation with God, and that’s where there is feasting and fellowship with the Father. That’s where His kingdom is. That’s where His Temple is. In the spirit. That’s where we observe the feasts, all of them, every jot and tittle.

If you think the kingdom of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, the Temple on Mt. Moriah, the courts and gates and walls of those earthly shadows, if you think they were glorious, how much more glorious is the heavenly reality that those earthly shadows were patterned after?

If we live according to the letter of the law and its shadows we will die. But if we live according to the spirit of the law and its heavenly realities we will live. And that’s not just true of some of the Law, of some of the sacrifices, of some of the feasts, of some of the sabbaths, it’s true of all the Law, every jot and tittle.

We don’t have to understand all those jots and tittles, and how they were fulfilled, it is enough that we understand what those things teach us, that Jesus Christ was put to death in the flesh so that we might be washed of our sins and be restored to spiritual fellowship with our Heavenly Father. And everything in the letter of the Law was a shadow of the blessings that flow from that one great truth, Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

2 Corinthians 3 concerns the Old Covenant and life under the Law without the Spirit vs. the New Covenant and life under its Law with the Spirit. The letter alone indeed kills, but the Spirit under the NC gives life even for those who break the Law. Do you think the NC is without Law? If you try to live under NC law without the Spirit, you will die as well. The NC law is TORAH (Jeremiah 31:33) as it was under the OC except under the NC, the Law is administered differently. It is not only inward, but the Holy Spirit assists in keeping it and there is no condemnation for those that walk in the Spirit.

You are talking about being obedient to the letter of the Law, but the letter of the Law says you must obey all the commandments, which it is self-evident is impossible, so no, you’re actually not obeying the Law. In all honesty, instead of talking about “obedience to the Law” all you can really talk about is “obedience to some of God’s commandments.”

Having to obey "all the commandments" is only true of those who seek to be justified by the Law. Since they don't seek justification by faith in Yeshua, they are forced to obey all the Law perfectly. I do not seek to be justified by the Law, but by faith in Yeshua. You say I'm not obeying the Law, yet you are the one breaking the commandments, not me. Do you justify your own disobedience by imagining my disobedience?

The Law written in our hearts is the spirit of the Law, not the letter. (read 2 Corinthians 3 again and again)

Is the spirit of the law against adultery to not even lust after a women in my heart? I think you would say yes. Does that make me free from the letter? No. I must not only obey the letter, but the spirit as well. The spirit of the law will be broken before the letter, but if I go beyond lusting in my heart and commit literal adultery with the woman I was lusting after, then I broke the letter as well.

I agree, but I contend that is true of ALL the Law, including the fall feasts, and the sabbaths, and the entire calendar of all the times and seasons of the land. But you are saying that some of the commandments have not yet been fulfilled in the New Covenant and therefore they are to be observed in the OC way.

I don't observe any laws in the OC way since they are written within me and since I have the indwelling Holy Spirit to assist me in obeying them. I am also not condemned when I break one of them.

I think that's got things mixed up. Yes, the whole Law, every jot and tittle, has been fulfilled, and having been fulfilled it passed away. That’s what Jesus said. Not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until ALL the Law was fulfilled. It was all fulfilled in the generation of the coming of Jesus and it all passed away in the last days of that generation.

Then why were the disciples keeping Pentecost, Unleavened Bread, Sabbath, dietary laws, etc.? Were they too stupid to know they passed away? Where does it say heaven and earth passed away in that generation? If heaven and earth passed away, then where are the New Heavens and New Earth to replace them?

Also, when Paul says that through our faith we “establish” the Law, he is not speaking of the Old Covenant letter of the Law (which were earthly shadows) but the New Covenant spirit of the Law (the heavenly realities).

So Paul wasn't saying that by faith we establish the OC letter of the Law, which was temporal, earthly shadows, but that we establish the NC spirit of the Law, which are eternal, heavenly realities.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law [OC law] is manifested, being witnessed by the law [OC law] and the prophets;
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [the OC law]
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​

Paul is contending for justification by faith rather than by the OC law. No one would ever believe the law of faith could be made void through faith. Nor would they believe the spirit of the Law was made void through faith. That is nonsense.

No my friend, that’s not loving people. Loving people is sharing our earthly goods with the needy, honoring our neighbor’s spouse, but most importantly loving people is sharing with them the good news that this is the day that God has ordained that we can lay down our burdens of sin and can come to Jesus and find rest for our weary souls, water for our thirsty tongue, manna for our hungry hearts, and unconditional love from our Heavenly Father. The difference is the ministry of death teaching people that obedience lies in taking a day off work, or the ministry of life in resting in the finished work of the Savior.

Of course those other things show love as well, but so does not sinning against others. Can you honestly say you love some woman even though you committed adultery with her husband? No.

 

[ScottA]

OK. Let's start from the beginning with the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Explain how it is fulfilled.

Look's like I missed this earlier...

The Feast of Unleavened Bread addresses one aspect of the Sabbath, which are both not a rest as perceived, but a recess, a timeout - without the Spirit, without God. This comes under the services of Israel, which they do as a blessing to all nations...again, not as a celebration per say, but to demonstrate a work of God toward judgement and salvation.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, who then ended the leaven fast in rebirth by sending the Holy Spirit.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews is a wonderful book from which to see how types and shadows in the Old Testament are wonderfully fulfilled in the New Testament in the glorious Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[gadar perets]

Look's like I missed this earlier...

The Feast of Unleavened Bread addresses one aspect of the Sabbath, which are both not a rest as perceived, but a recess, a timeout - without the Spirit, without God. This comes under the services of Israel, which they do as a blessing to all nations...again, not as a celebration per say, but to demonstrate a work of God toward judgement and salvation.

Wow. You had almost four months to think of a reply

"Without the Spirit, without God"?? Do you mean that they kept it under the OC without the indwelling Holy Spirit? At the time YHWH gave them that commandment, they had God. The FOUB had nothing to do with blessing all nations. It was an "in house" thing done within their own nation. The purpose was to literally abstain from eating leaven so as to symbolically teach to abstain from sin.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, who then ended the leaven fast in rebirth by sending the Holy Spirit.

While Yeshua is the perfect example of how to truly abstain from leaven/sin, the commandment was for all Israel, not just Messiah. Yeshua kept the literal FOUB all his life even though he was sinless. Yeshua's walk was a lifelong fast from leaven/sin, but our walk was just beginning at the cross. We, too, must abstain from leaven/sin as he did. To observe the FOUB each year at Passover is a reminder of doing just that. Paul wrote, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). Now that Messiah Yeshua was sacrificed as our ultimate Passover Lamb, we continue to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread to remind us to partake of the spiritual unleavened bread and forsake the spiritual leaven of sin, hypocrisy, false doctrine, etc. When our life is ended, we will have ended our own fast from leaven and can cease to keep this feast.

 

[gadar perets]

Hebrews is a wonderful book from which to see how types and shadows in the Old Testament are wonderfully fulfilled in the New Testament in the glorious Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no doubt that various types and shadows have been fulfilled, but not all of them. And not all types and shadows are fulfilled by Yeshua. For example, crossing the Red Sea was a type of the believers baptism. Rebekah was a type of the "bride of Messiah". Cain was a type of the wicked. Shavuot is a shadow of the firstfruits of believers, etc.

 

[ScottA]

Wow. You had almost four months to think of a reply

"Without the Spirit, without God"?? Do you mean that they kept it under the OC without the indwelling Holy Spirit? At the time YHWH gave them that commandment, they had God. The FOUB had nothing to do with blessing all nations. It was an "in house" thing done within their own nation. The purpose was to literally abstain from eating leaven so as to symbolically teach to abstain from sin.


While Yeshua is the perfect example of how to truly abstain from leaven/sin, the commandment was for all Israel, not just Messiah. Yeshua kept the literal FOUB all his life even though he was sinless. Yeshua's walk was a lifelong fast from leaven/sin, but our walk was just beginning at the cross. We, too, must abstain from leaven/sin as he did. To observe the FOUB each year at Passover is a reminder of doing just that. Paul wrote, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). Now that Messiah Yeshua was sacrificed as our ultimate Passover Lamb, we continue to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread to remind us to partake of the spiritual unleavened bread and forsake the spiritual leaven of sin, hypocrisy, false doctrine, etc. When our life is ended, we will have ended our own fast from leaven and can cease to keep this feast.

Two things:

1) You are viewing things from the inside out, rather than God's perspective of the outside in. No disrespect intended, but this gives one the mind of the pot rather than the Potter, and therefore falls short of "all truth."

2) You are equating or making synonymous the terms "leaven/sin", which they are not. Leaven spiritually simply means "rise up." The Feast of Leaven Bread" symbolizes that which was revealed to Daniel, which is the judgement of being separated from God upon the whole world:

Daniel 9:24
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy."

...the fulfillment of which was marked by Christ just before going to the cross, saying, "Rise, let us be going." Of which Paul confirmed, saying we "were crucified and raised up with Christ." Past tense.

The issue that most have with this way of thinking, and what makes it "a hard saying" just as those spoken by Christ...comes from viewing things inside out from a worldly perspective. Most don't buy or enter into the reality that time is a created illusion, and the idea that much of the word of God is about eternal things that are translated into worldly terms on a created timeline that does not exist with God, and therefore must be converted back to eternal terms in order to fully understand them in "all truth."

Though not fully understood, the best that can be said of this has been said already in the scriptures. What is yet to be revealed are the finer points, the ah-ha points when the light comes in this world of darkness, which God has determined should last the whole time, rather than ending in the middle where all things actually came to be "finished." If it were not so, the gift of prophecy and words of knowledge would have ceased, but remain for the church age, which things are "sealed."

 

[gadar perets]

Two things:

1) You are viewing things from the inside out, rather than God's perspective of the outside in. No disrespect intended, but this gives one the mind of the pot rather than the Potter, and therefore falls short of "all truth."

2) You are equating or making synonymous the terms "leaven/sin", which they are not. Leaven spiritually simply means "rise up." The Feast of Leaven Bread" symbolizes that which was revealed to Daniel, which is the judgement of being separated from God upon the whole world:

I am viewing things exactly as YHWH taught us to view them via Scripture. Leaven is revealed as hypocrisy in Luke 12:1; as false doctrine in Matthew 16:5-12; as sin (malice and wickedness) in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8. When I wrote, "...and forsake the spiritual leaven of sin, hypocrisy, false doctrine, etc. ", the "etc." includes rising or being puffed up like leavened bread (1 Corinthians 4:6). YHWH will eventually separate from Himself those in the world who live lives full of leaven, but that is not what FOUB is about. It is about YHWH's people Israel not being like the world by living lives full of leaven. We are reminded yearly to continue ridding ourselves of it.

Daniel 9:24
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy."

...the fulfillment of which was marked by Christ just before going to the cross, saying, "Rise, let us be going." Of which Paul confirmed, saying we "were crucified and raised up with Christ." Past tense.

You seem to be equating the rising of leaven with the Messiah's resurrection. Is that correct? If so, I totally disagree. Leaven, as it relates to FOUB, is a BAD thing that needs to be removed. It is NOT a good thing that we should look forward to.

The issue that most have with this way of thinking, and what makes it "a hard saying" just as those spoken by Christ...comes from viewing things inside out from a worldly perspective. Most don't buy or enter into the reality that time is a created illusion, and the idea that much of the word of God is about eternal things that are translated into worldly terms on a created timeline that does not exist with God, and therefore must be converted back to eternal terms in order to fully understand them in "all truth."

I agree time is created, but it is certainly not an illusion. The heavenly bodies are literal objects that YHWH put in heaven to determine time. They operate as precisely as any clock. One reason they are needed is to tell us the exact time to keep His holy days (Genesis 1:14).

Though not fully understood, the best that can be said of this has been said already in the scriptures. What is yet to be revealed are the finer points, the ah-ha points when the light comes in this world of darkness, which God has determined should last the whole time, rather than ending in the middle where all things actually came to be "finished." If it were not so, the gift of prophecy and words of knowledge would have ceased, but remain for the church age, which things are "sealed."

What was "finished" was the work Messiah had to do as far as fulfilling Scriptures pertaining to his first coming. There is more to be "finished" at a future time such as fulfilling Scriptures concerning his second coming and the remaining unfulfilled Feast days.

 

[Pilgrimer]

So you said all that to say that under the New Covenant you have been given the spirit so you can keep the letter of the law in a better way?

You don’t travel to Jerusalem on the 14th day of the first month and that evening sit down and eat of a Passover lamb, do you? So are you breaking that commandment?

Of course not. Because, as you said, “under the NC, the Law is administered differently.”

But I would suggest that you consider that not only is the Law administered differently, but under the New Covenant “what” the Spirit administers is different. The Spirit doesn’t administer the old earthly temple and sacrifices and feasts and physical rest, which were mere shadows patterned after the true, but under the New Covenant the Spirit administers spiritual things, a spiritual temple, and spiritual sacrifices, and spiritual feasts and spiritual rest.

Under the New Covenant you do in fact obey the commandment to come to the New Jerusalem and sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and partake of a spiritual feast which is the New Covenant Passover lamb, the body of Jesus, the sinless, unleavened bread of life, that was sent down from heaven. That’s what the Feast of Unleavened Bread was about, just as much a portrait of the sinless body of Jesus as the Passover Lamb. Which is why this feasting on Unleavened Bread begins with partaking of the Passover itself. “Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

This is of course speaking of a spiritual feasting on the sinless body of Jesus and we can study the Mosaic feast to better understand just what this partaking of the body and blood of Jesus means for those of us who partake of it.

So under the New Covenant, the spirit doesn’t administer the old earthly things in a different way, earthly bread that if we eat we die, no matter how lovingly we eat it, but under the New Covenant the spirit administers spiritual things, and if we eat of these things we will have eternal life.

 

[gadar perets]

So you said all that to say that under the New Covenant you have been given the spirit so you can keep the letter of the law in a better way?

You don’t travel to Jerusalem on the 14th day of the first month and that evening sit down and eat of a Passover lamb, do you? So are you breaking that commandment?

Of course not. Because, as you said, “under the NC, the Law is administered differently.”

Jerusalem is no longer the only location to keep Passover (John 4:21; Acts 20:6) and we no longer eat a literal lamb. That aspect of Passover was fulfilled. That does not mean we stop celebrating all that Passover means, both past and present.

But I would suggest that you consider that not only is the Law administered differently, but under the New Covenant “what” the Spirit administers is different. The Spirit doesn’t administer the old earthly temple and sacrifices and feasts and physical rest, which were mere shadows patterned after the true, but under the New Covenant the Spirit administers spiritual things, a spiritual temple, and spiritual sacrifices, and spiritual feasts and spiritual rest.

You erroneously include feasts and the Sabbath rest in your man made distinction of what "old earthly things" includes. I will not spiritualize them away as you have.

 

[ScottA]

I am viewing things exactly as YHWH taught us to view them via Scripture. Leaven is revealed as hypocrisy in Luke 12:1; as false doctrine in Matthew 16:5-12; as sin (malice and wickedness) in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8. When I wrote, "...and forsake the spiritual leaven of sin, hypocrisy, false doctrine, etc. ", the "etc." includes rising or being puffed up like leavened bread (1 Corinthians 4:6). YHWH will eventually separate from Himself those in the world who live lives full of leaven, but that is not what FOUB is about. It is about YHWH's people Israel not being like the world by living lives full of leaven. We are reminded yearly to continue ridding ourselves of it.

Indeed, we are reminded, but reminded until that time spoken of in the prophets which had already begun even during that time for those who could receive it. Paul's warning and instruction was to preserve those who had already gotten off track until the time of the Lord's choosing. Nonetheless, the warning does not make the prophets void.

You seem to be equating the rising of leaven with the Messiah's resurrection. Is that correct? If so, I totally disagree. Leaven, as it relates to FOUB, is a BAD thing that needs to be removed. It is NOT a good thing that we should look forward to.

As I said, that is the perspective only when things are upside down. If you prefer, or if it makes more sense to you, consider the leaven that is bad that you say should be removed, as being removed until that time when it is renewed as "new wine." Nonetheless, the point is that this time is time apart from God, whom is spirit. This is the reason for the celebration - not for ourselves, but for those looking on for every generation, that each may "enter in", "each in his own order."

I agree time is created, but it is certainly not an illusion. The heavenly bodies are literal objects that YHWH put in heaven to determine time. They operate as precisely as any clock. One reason they are needed is to tell us the exact time to keep His holy days (Genesis 1:14).

Certainly that is the perspective of those within the same creation. But the characters of any created story (history / His story), simply know nothing more, until it is revealed to them, until they have been rescued from it. Who knew that Santa was not actually real? ...and this coming from loving parents!

What was "finished" was the work Messiah had to do as far as fulfilling Scriptures pertaining to his first coming. There is more to be "finished" at a future time such as fulfilling Scriptures concerning his second coming and the remaining unfulfilled Feast days.

No...as this is confirmed by Paul who spoke these things, spoke them in past tense, meaning "once for all."

 

[gadar perets]

Indeed, we are reminded, but reminded until that time spoken of in the prophets which had already begun even during that time for those who could receive it. Paul's warning and instruction was to preserve those who had already gotten off track until the time of the Lord's choosing. Nonetheless, the warning does not make the prophets void.
As I said, that is the perspective only when things are upside down. If you prefer, or if it makes more sense to you, consider the leaven that is bad that you say should be removed, as being removed until that time when it is renewed as "new wine." Nonetheless, the point is that this time is time apart from God, whom is spirit. This is the reason for the celebration - not for ourselves, but for those looking on for every generation, that each may "enter in", "each in his own order."
Certainly that is the perspective of those within the same creation. But the characters of any created story (history / His story), simply know nothing more, until it is revealed to them, until they have been rescued from it. Who knew that Santa was not actually real? ...and this coming from loving parents!
No...as this is confirmed by Paul who spoke these things, spoke them in past tense, meaning "once for all."

Well Scott, your posts are too philosophical for me. I have a lot of trouble understanding where you are coming from and what you mean and when I do understand you, I disagree. I'll stick to the plain word of Scripture and how the Holy Spirit leads me to understand it.

 

[ScottA]

Well Scott, your posts are too philosophical for me. I have a lot of trouble understanding where you are coming from and what you mean and when I do understand you, I disagree. I'll stick to the plain word of Scripture and how the Holy Spirit leads me to understand it.

It is not history that repeats itself, but men who repeat it.

The Pharisees had the same comeback...and why should they have done any different? Jesus spoke like He alone had the truth, called God His Father, said their beloved temple was going to be destroyed, told people they had to be born again, and that they had to eat his body and drink His blood. Which things they did not believe even when they could see Him. What now shall they do when they cannot?

I told you so.

 

[gadar perets]

It is not history that repeats itself, but men who repeat it.

The Pharisees had the same comeback...and why should they have done any different? Jesus spoke like He alone had the truth, called God His Father, said their beloved temple was going to be destroyed, told people they had to be born again, and that they had to eat his body and drink His blood. Which things they did not believe even when they could see Him. What now shall they do when they cannot?

I told you so.

You do realize I can say the same thing about you; that the Pharisees had the same comeback as you? They were called to repent and believe, but they loved their man made rules and misunderstandings of Scripture more than the truth. To paraphrase you, "the leaven of sin is renewed to become new wine"??? Oy vey! Your religion is to spiritualize away truth and remain in your lawlessness.