Convergence of Signs tells us the Return of Jesus is very Near and the Rapture is Imminent!!

[Naomi25]

New covenant is to the houses of Judah and Israel. So, unless you're into replacement theology there is your distinction.

Okay...where are the verses showing this "new", different covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel? Mind you...we're talking distinctly different from the "new" covenant than the "new" covenant we are under now, if you please. You are essentially hocking that the bible teaches 2 "new" covenants. One for each people group. I don't see any biblical evidence for that, and despite futurists insistance upon it, I have yet to see any biblical proof for it.

Ah...replacement theology. That thing you guys like to say we believe in, but no one I know actually believes in what you say replacement theology is. I think, it must be a straw man issue, where futurists constantly build up "replacement theology", this big bad evil doctrine that we all believe in...except we don't. It would be nice to have some conversations about what we really think about Israel, and what the bible really says about it all.

Revelation 3:10 says the church will be removed from the earth.

Ah...no it doesn't. It says believers will be kept from the hour of trial. Big difference, because there are lots of ways we could be "kept from" such a thing, and none of them necessitate leaving the planet.

When the verse says "I will keep you from..." the Greek words used here are:
Keep: τηρέω, téreó, to watch over, to guard
Out of: ἐκ, ek, from, from out of. This usage of "ek" is interesting here, because the Greek Lexicon suggests that it's used in this context to: "keep one at a distance from..."

So, when reading this verse, we certainly aren't forced into a reading of "the church must leave this earth". Far from it.

After the church verses there is zero mention of Church or Christians on the earth. But there's plenty mention of Israel, Jerusalem, 12 tribes of Israel, and the temple.

Pretty sure we've been over this. There are other books of the bible with no mention of the Spirit either...that doesn't mean the Spirit has "left the planet" during those times. Or...there are also some other books that also don't mention the word "church"...pretty sure the Church was there then too and not Raptured.
This thinking doesn't add up, and cannot be used as a persuasive argument for the Church being absent from the earth. Not when there are very clearly believers still present, regardless that they are called 'saints'.

As far as redemption, after the rapture, law returns bringing with it animal sacrifices.

Ah-huh. Proof? Any verse that states that there is going to be a time after Christ's return where there is going to be a God approved return to old covenant things?

It will be like in the Old Testament for salvation. No born again until you die.

Christ will be there, as King and high priest of the temple.

Temple went from stone to Christians and will return to stone.

You quoting church verses does not apply to law and Israel.

I mean...really? Where does the bible say any of this? It doesn't. After Christ, there is only ONE way to God. That's it. You either come to Christ through faith in his sacrifice, or you miss the boat.
Anything else is fancy footwork with old testament stuff that you've totally missed through Christ's coming. Christ's coming changed everything. And any time anyone tries to change things back to OT and old covenant ways, you have to know there's something hinky going on with your doctrine.
It's all about Jesus. The bible, redemption, the future. Anytime you try and take the focus off him and put it on a group of people, then your wobbling off base.

Jesus is never called Israel. He is the offspring of Abraham through Israel. But that does not make himIsrael.

Christ is never called the olive tree.

Read my post to Enoch111. Because clearly the bible puts Jesus into that roll. The bible, not me. And if you want to set up whole arguments just on whether a word is present or not, then things get bad for everyone: Trinity, Rapture, Bible.

As far as your verse on Israel, the nation of Israel was called out of Egypt. And calling his son out of Egypt is prophecy, but it does not say his son is Israel.

Again, read my post to Enoch111. Israel was more than just a people group...or should have been. That's why their faithlessness was such treachery, time and time again.

As for "I will keep you from the hour of trial" You obviously have not studied the linguistics. Keep from is tereo ek,
Which means protection by removal. The hour of trial is the tribulation. And the place of tribulation is everybody that lives on the earth.

God does not try or test his people. But it says everybody on the earth will be. So how do you protect by removal when it is the whole earth and everybody on it.

Matthew and such make it clear, his church is snatched away to join him in the clouds in heaven, meaning raptured.

The rapture is like a thief in the night. The second coming every eye will see. The two events are seven Hebrew years apart.

I love what you did there, with that little jab about linguistics. But, regardless, I can read, and reading reveals all sorts of wonderful information. And as I pointed out earlier, there seems to be many different uses in scripture for "ek"; but as it's used in Rev 3:10, it is being used as "keep one at a distance from". It's not being used as "to be removed completely out of". And the previous word, often translated as "keep" (tereo) is 'watch over, guard". This is not "remove or snatch away" as you seem to want it....regardless of your linguistic skills.

If you read through Revelation, every other time it uses the phrase "those who dwell upon the earth"...or the equivilent, it is talking of evil, unregenerate people and the judgements of God that come upon them and their responses to it. Why, then, should we think that this single time in Revelation, the reference to "all those who dwell on the earth", must mean everyone, even those saved...so we must be removed first?
You are just fitting the verses into a ready made doctrine. Not reading the verses and chapters as they actually are.

There were just humans on the earth. Then God separated them into Jews and Gentiles. He gave the Jews a covenant which did not include Gentiles.

Israel failed, divorced, God gave a covenant Gentiles at the Last Supper Christ declared his blood covenant, which is not new covenant Judah and Israel.

When the time of the Gentiles, the church age, ends, the church will be rapture and Israel return. And they will have a new covenant with the houses of Judah and Israel.

If you can't see separation I don't know what to tell you. You are reading things by what you want to see, not what is said.

You focus too much on "one side, then another side, now swing back again". This is NOT what Paul teaches throughout his books, or specifically in Romans 9-11.

This is what he says (paraphrasing). Abraham had two sons, but only one son was the son of promise. That 'promise' son had two sons, and only one of those was the 'promise' son. And so forth. These 'promise' sons...the "elect", as they are called, were for two purposes: to achieve God's plan of redemption, and to bring glory to God. And even down through the years of faithlessness, God kept within 'Israel' a small number of "elect" people, so that these two purposes may continue. These "elect" have always been "true Israel", Abrahams true, spiritual offspring, the ones who the promised Christ will come through.
Enter the NT, where Christ has come, and died for the sins of the world! Now, with the majority of the Jewish people rejecting God, and his Christ still, Christ welcomes the Gentiles into the "elect". Not all, of course, that is not how it works. He still works to accomplish his two purposes: his glory, and the redemption of his elect. But he still has only one people: "the elect", made up, now, of Jewish and Gentile people, made one in Christ, the True Israel, he who was faithful where Israel was not faithful. He who was a royal Priesthood where the Priesthood failed. He who withstood temptation in the wilderness where Israel failed. The true Son of God, perfect and Holy. The true offspring of Abraham. And those in him are "the elect"...one people made up of many.

This is the bible. Paul works SO hard to teach this again and again. I shake my head in confusion that you guys work so hard to stick those divisions back up.

1 Corinthians 1:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

To me both are valuable.

Perhaps they are, but the point being made in scripture here is that both are folly unless the truth of the bible is seen. I'm not sure you are seeing it past this incredible timetable and division of peoples you have built.

As well in the apostasy Bible is quite clear many calling themselves Christian will walk away from what the Bible teaches. Some to a state of being weak Christians and some to a state of being pretenders.

The Bible says in the last days true believers will cry out for the Lord to come. We are at that time.

True. But I think we've been in those days for some time. No doubt it will only get worse.

 

[Naomi25]

Replacement theology.

No...biblical theology. Can you show me, biblically, anything that contradicts what I've said?

 

[Naomi25]

And I'm sorry you cannot recognize Bible truth when you see it. Your entire post is untenable, but there would be no point in listing each error one by one.

You do not even know that the *seed* of Abraham has three applications in the Abrahamic Covenant, depending on the context.

You do know I'm just quoting scripture at you, right?

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

And sure, I'm not opposed to the *seed* meaning different things in the context of the Abrahamic Covenant, but clearly once we reach the NT and look at it once Christ has come and done his work on the cross for us, we have to take that into account when looking at everything else. Paul outright tells us that we must. So...if my posts are *untenable*, again, I'm sorry...but it's God's word, not mine. Shouldn't you perhaps consider what he has to say before spluttering in outrage?

 

[CoreIssue]

Okay...where are the verses showing this "new", different covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel? Mind you...we're talking distinctly different from the "new" covenant than the "new" covenant we are under now, if you please. You are essentially hocking that the bible teaches 2 "new" covenants. One for each people group. I don't see any biblical evidence for that, and despite futurists insistance upon it, I have yet to see any biblical proof for it.

Ah...replacement theology. That thing you guys like to say we believe in, but no one I know actually believes in what you say replacement theology is. I think, it must be a straw man issue, where futurists constantly build up "replacement theology", this big bad evil doctrine that we all believe in...except we don't. It would be nice to have some conversations about what we really think about Israel, and what the bible really says about it all.


Ah...no it doesn't. It says believers will be kept from the hour of trial. Big difference, because there are lots of ways we could be "kept from" such a thing, and none of them necessitate leaving the planet.

When the verse says "I will keep you from..." the Greek words used here are:
Keep: τηρέω, téreó, to watch over, to guard
Out of: ἐκ, ek, from, from out of. This usage of "ek" is interesting here, because the Greek Lexicon suggests that it's used in this context to: "keep one at a distance from..."

So, when reading this verse, we certainly aren't forced into a reading of "the church must leave this earth". Far from it.


Pretty sure we've been over this. There are other books of the bible with no mention of the Spirit either...that doesn't mean the Spirit has "left the planet" during those times. Or...there are also some other books that also don't mention the word "church"...pretty sure the Church was there then too and not Raptured.
This thinking doesn't add up, and cannot be used as a persuasive argument for the Church being absent from the earth. Not when there are very clearly believers still present, regardless that they are called 'saints'.


Ah-huh. Proof? Any verse that states that there is going to be a time after Christ's return where there is going to be a God approved return to old covenant things?


I mean...really? Where does the bible say any of this? It doesn't. After Christ, there is only ONE way to God. That's it. You either come to Christ through faith in his sacrifice, or you miss the boat.
Anything else is fancy footwork with old testament stuff that you've totally missed through Christ's coming. Christ's coming changed everything. And any time anyone tries to change things back to OT and old covenant ways, you have to know there's something hinky going on with your doctrine.
It's all about Jesus. The bible, redemption, the future. Anytime you try and take the focus off him and put it on a group of people, then your wobbling off base.


Read my post to Enoch111. Because clearly the bible puts Jesus into that roll. The bible, not me. And if you want to set up whole arguments just on whether a word is present or not, then things get bad for everyone: Trinity, Rapture, Bible.



Again, read my post to Enoch111. Israel was more than just a people group...or should have been. That's why their faithlessness was such treachery, time and time again.



I love what you did there, with that little jab about linguistics. But, regardless, I can read, and reading reveals all sorts of wonderful information. And as I pointed out earlier, there seems to be many different uses in scripture for "ek"; but as it's used in Rev 3:10, it is being used as "keep one at a distance from". It's not being used as "to be removed completely out of". And the previous word, often translated as "keep" (tereo) is 'watch over, guard". This is not "remove or snatch away" as you seem to want it....regardless of your linguistic skills.

If you read through Revelation, every other time it uses the phrase "those who dwell upon the earth"...or the equivilent, it is talking of evil, unregenerate people and the judgements of God that come upon them and their responses to it. Why, then, should we think that this single time in Revelation, the reference to "all those who dwell on the earth", must mean everyone, even those saved...so we must be removed first?
You are just fitting the verses into a ready made doctrine. Not reading the verses and chapters as they actually are.



You focus too much on "one side, then another side, now swing back again". This is NOT what Paul teaches throughout his books, or specifically in Romans 9-11.

This is what he says (paraphrasing). Abraham had two sons, but only one son was the son of promise. That 'promise' son had two sons, and only one of those was the 'promise' son. And so forth. These 'promise' sons...the "elect", as they are called, were for two purposes: to achieve God's plan of redemption, and to bring glory to God. And even down through the years of faithlessness, God kept within 'Israel' a small number of "elect" people, so that these two purposes may continue. These "elect" have always been "true Israel", Abrahams true, spiritual offspring, the ones who the promised Christ will come through.
Enter the NT, where Christ has come, and died for the sins of the world! Now, with the majority of the Jewish people rejecting God, and his Christ still, Christ welcomes the Gentiles into the "elect". Not all, of course, that is not how it works. He still works to accomplish his two purposes: his glory, and the redemption of his elect. But he still has only one people: "the elect", made up, now, of Jewish and Gentile people, made one in Christ, the True Israel, he who was faithful where Israel was not faithful. He who was a royal Priesthood where the Priesthood failed. He who withstood temptation in the wilderness where Israel failed. The true Son of God, perfect and Holy. The true offspring of Abraham. And those in him are "the elect"...one people made up of many.

This is the bible. Paul works SO hard to teach this again and again. I shake my head in confusion that you guys work so hard to stick those divisions back up.


Perhaps they are, but the point being made in scripture here is that both are folly unless the truth of the bible is seen. I'm not sure you are seeing it past this incredible timetable and division of peoples you have built.


True. But I think we've been in those days for some time. No doubt it will only get worse.

Jeremiah 31:31
Hebrews 8:8

Looking at your definition of Tereo ek, how do you keep anyone a distance from when it's the whole earth? You're right in the middle of it so there is no place of distance except off the earth.

I guess you haven't read the chapter after chapter prophecies about required pilgrimages, offerings and's animal sacrifices. Return to stone Temple. Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Until you actually do some study how can you evaluate what others say?

 

[Naomi25]

Jeremiah 31:31
Hebrews 8:8

This is the new covenant that he makes with all those in Christ. I mean...listen to it!

The New Covenant
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” -Jeremiah 31:31–34

And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. -2 Corinthians 3:3–6

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” -Acts 10:43


But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.-Hebrews 10:12–18

It is the same covenant. And Hebrews very clearly says that there will be NO return after Christ's once for all sacrifice. There is "no longer any offering for sin".

Looking at your definition of Tereo ek, how do you keep anyone a distance from when it's the whole earth? You're right in the middle of it so there is no place of distance except off the earth.

Well, first, you're putting a limitation upon God...good luck with that. I'd rather say "if God says he'll guard us amongst, even though it ravages the planet" then try and make scripture say something that it actually doesn't...which is what you are doing.

Let's take a step back and just say fine...Tereo ek doesn't mean 'to guard from a distance', or something of the like. It still does NOT say "I'm going to remove Christians from the planet but leave the Jews behind."
Just doesn't.
So, say what you like about me, but you are still stretching a verse far beyond what you have biblical leave to. You cannot make it say something that it does not.

I guess you haven't read the chapter after chapter prophecies about required pilgrimages, offerings and's animal sacrifices. Return to stone Temple. Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Until you actually do some study how can you evaluate what others say?

You mean, until my study lines up with yours? Because there is plenty....plenty of good scholarly work that lines up biblically, that suggests that these Chapters do NOT call for a return to "stone", to sacrifices. And when we compare such notions to the clear teachings of the NT, the mere idea of it is against everything Christ purchased for us.
You may say I'm negating the OT prophecies, but when we have Paul and Christ himself telling us how to see these things in the light of Christ's work and coming, then we need to sit up and listen. The OT without Christ is useless. Going back to it after Christ is a shocking insult to what he did for us...and that includes the Jewish people. They need what he did for them too. That you would have them revert back to the shadows and futility and deny them the grace and freedom of this....? Why? It makes no actual sense, let alone biblical sense.

 

[Blueberry]

I think when we come to scripture the question we need to pause and ask is this: when Jesus mentioned birth pangs, did he just mean that his coming is as inevitable as the coming of a child (once labor starts...heck, once your pregnant, you're not getting out of it!). Or did he mean that we are to see the end of the world as the same as labor...the convulsions leading to new life?

I think we must see it as both, in the context of how Christ used it. "All these things (calamaties) are but the beginning of birth pains".
He isn't, here, speaking of his imminent return, but of the woes of this life, wars, famines, false Christ's, earthquakes and the like. These are the beginning of the contractions.

And then Paul, in Romans 8:22 tells us that the whole of creation has beein groaning in childbirth. Again, this implies the labor, not just the inevibility of the birth itself.

So, what can we take away from it? I think you may be right. These contractions will become more and more obvious. I think last year, people would have been blind not to stop and see how fast and thick it was coming for a time. I know many Amillennialist who even commented on it. As to how soon another contraction will come, and then another after that to begin to perhaps give us a little idea of 'how far apart' they are...well, we'll just have to wait and see. But I do think that these 'pangs'...the intensity and frequency of these things, will perhaps be the most faithful gauge, for want of a better word...to tell us the lateness of the hour. If that makes sense.

I hear what you are saying. I agree about it being both. If this is just the beginning and things are to get worse, that is worrisome to me. I am just concerned that we could be in for another round soon. That it will be worse next year than last year. With this year having been a respite.

I must admit to becoming a bit desensitized to all the calamity in general. It seems never ending. Until a significant upswing in events takes place. Otherwise it is like background noise. That funny phenomenon like a noisy fridge. You get used to it. Tune it out. Then only notice it again when it stops!

Wow... Amillennialists noticing might be a sign unto itself! ;)

Why don't they just roll over and let him rub their bellies while their at it? Please. The guy postures like a megalomaniac. Why would anyone want to toss gasoline on that flame?

Worldwide popularity only increases the chances he could be the one. The US's sudden withdrawal from Syria fits nicely into the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39. So many pieces fit. Its bewildering at times. He and Erdogan are worth watching at all times. And Damascus.

I think it's "big" now because people are all "save the animals". People at the moment are all about having a cause to scream about.
Personally, I don't care if someone wants to avoid meat because they just want to. Sometimes I just can't eat it...my stomach is like: "nope! Not today!" But then, other days it's like: "Bacon! God is awesome!"

Yeah, the veganism is an offshoot of the save the planet cause. This is one way to do it, they say. I am solidly back on it right now as an experiment to see if my body can handle it. I've felt stronger because of it. Though I plan to moderate my consumption.

I wonder how this will go when the animals lose their fear of Man? Rev 6:8 Pit bulls are so popular here now for along time in the States and I imagine elsewhere. Not hating on that breed, but I do respect what a scenario where they lost all fear of mankind would be worrisome.

Perhaps if we soon learn of some major alterations in the ocean due to Fukushima, it will be easy to lay off the fish?

Yeah, true. It can, when going into labor, take a bit to figure out if you are, actually, having birth pains. This is usally because by the time you're "ready to go" your so uncomfortable all the time, it can be difficult to tell! And I suppose that can fit just as well into this scenario. The world has been in trouble for a long while, experiencing all these 'aches and pains'. Christ said we would have these things. But by golly, when the labor kicks in for real, there is no way to mistake it...unless you're one of those freakish women...but let's ingore them for the sake of the conversation!! It will be very interesting to see if another, very obvious "pang" comes along soon. I mean...considering how long it took to work its way up to last years, it may not be for some time, really. But, as I'm keen for this "baby", I can hope we'll see another one soonish. Still...we won't truly be able to know how long this 'labor' will last. I suppose til the contractions run together and the chaos is almost unstoppable. Can you imagine it? No wonder the bible says men will quake and faint from fear.

Yeah. I am concerned that the second one is upon us and that, holding true to form, it has to be worse than the previous one. So even if it starts at the beginning of 2019, will this mean that it lasts all year long and is even worse than 2017? Setting new records? I honestly don't know?? Except that if it happens then we start to looking for less than one year between it and the following third pang. Which will be even worse. And so on.

Fainting from fear and eventually wanting rocks to fall on them to kill them. I could now more easily see that as things grow worse and worse. I often get accused of being too negative, but if I understand the Bible correctly and the times correctly, is there any other way to be?? Again, I don't know.

All I can say is that we are growing used to tragedies measuring in the mere 10s and dozens and even 100s. 50 or 60 is sad event, but not all that shocking anymore. It takes 100s and even 1000s to really get my attention. But if I understand Biblical prophecies, we're talking 10,000s and 100,000s coming. At some point, millions. Even with what is already present that is a challenge to wrap my mind around. But by the time were are conditioned will that be any thing special?

Death toll over 220 in the Saturday Indonesian tsunami. One almost has to go looking for such news nowadays. But I do know that something went wrong with one of the Kardashian's Christmas photo shoot. Trust me, I wasn't looking for that news! This tsunami being particular pernicious because it was in the dark and no earthquake rumblings to warn. They say that the think it was from a volcano. But 220 souls... meh.

I really appreciate the feedback.

It was just an observation and some speculation. So far it seems to be holding, but I would not be ready to really call it until a third pang is reached after two break. If that were to happen, things would have to be getting very close by then. And the inescapable pattern would be obvious. All we need is a Earth sized epidural!

I have decided to call this The Big Birth Pang Theory™.

 

[Blueberry]

I checked Revelation 6:8 and that was "wild beasts". Not domesticated animals going wild. So let be withdrawal that statement. Certainly never meant to pick on anyone's beloved pet or anything.

 

[CoreIssue]

="Naomi25, post: 485165, member: 7237"]This is the new covenant that he makes with all those in Christ. I mean...listen to it!

That is the the houses of Judah and Israel not the church.

This is replacement theology you are talking.

The New Covenant
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” -Jeremiah 31:31–34

And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. -2 Corinthians 3:3–6

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” -Acts 10:43


But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.-Hebrews 10:12–18



It is the same covenant. And Hebrews very clearly says that there will be NO return after Christ's once for all sacrifice. There is "no longer any offering for sin".

Well, first, you're putting a limitation upon God...good luck with that. I'd rather say "if God says he'll guard us amongst, even though it ravages the planet" then try and make scripture say something that it actually doesn't...which is what you are doing.

Let's take a step back and just say fine...Tereo ek doesn't mean 'to guard from a distance', or something of the like. It still does NOT say "I'm going to remove Christians from the planet but leave the Jews behind."
Just doesn't.
So, say what you like about me, but you are still stretching a verse far beyond what you have biblical leave to. You cannot make it say something that it does not.

You mean, until my study lines up with yours? Because there is plenty....plenty of good scholarly work that lines up biblically, that suggests that these Chapters do NOT call for a return to "stone", to sacrifices. And when we compare such notions to the clear teachings of the NT, the mere idea of it is against everything Christ purchased for us.
You may say I'm negating the OT prophecies, but when we have Paul and Christ himself telling us how to see these things in the light of Christ's work and coming, then we need to sit up and listen. The OT without Christ is useless. Going back to it after Christ is a shocking insult to what he did for us...and that includes the Jewish people. They need what he did for them too. That you would have them revert back to the shadows and futility and deny them the grace and freedom of this....? Why? It makes no actual sense, let alone biblical sense.[/QUOTE]

The blood of Christ is for every saint who ever lived. But it is not delivered the same way to everyone.

The OT saints had to wait for his resurrection. The church receives it immediately. After the church age they will have to wait again.

Again you're pushing replacement theology.

Plenty of scholarly work? From who? Catholics? A millennialist? Seventh-day Adventists? Mormons? Jehovah witnesses.

As for tereo ek You said:

And as I pointed out earlier, there seems to be many different uses in scripture for "ek"; but as it's used in Rev 3:10, it is being used as "keep one at a distance from". It's not being used as "to be removed completely out of".

Now you say:

Let's take a step back and just say fine...Tereo ek doesn't mean 'to guard from a distance', or something of the like. It still does NOT say "I'm going to remove Christians from the planet but leave the Jews behind."
Just doesn't.

But you didn't answer my question:

Looking at your definition of Tereo ek, how do you keep anyone a distance from when it's the whole earth? You're right in the middle of it so there is no place of distance except off the earth.

 

[Keraz]

Why? It makes no actual sense, let alone biblical sense.

Thank you, Naomi25, your posts are a beam of the light of truth.

The sad fact is that those who have chosen to believe in a 'rapture to heaven' are locked into that theory and no amount of Biblical truth will change their minds. Also very difficult for them to suddenly renounce long held beliefs and their families and friends would think they had gone crazy.
Differing beliefs about God's Plans for His people are not fundamental doctrine and don't affect our Salvation. Its funny to think of rapture believers doing bunny hops as things turn bad around them!

But what is wrong for them to do, is to teach and promote the 'rapture' theory. That will be not so good for them. James 3:1

The Lord, thru His Prophets DOES tell us how He will protect his own faithful people DURING and through all that must happen until Jesus Returns in His glory to reign with us for 1000 years.

 

[CoreIssue]

Thank you, Naomi25, your posts are a beam of the light of truth.

The sad fact is that those who have chosen to believe in a 'rapture to heaven' are locked into that theory and no amount of Biblical truth will change their minds. Also very difficult for them to suddenly renounce long held beliefs and their families and friends would think they had gone crazy.
Differing beliefs about God's Plans for His people are not fundamental doctrine and don't affect our Salvation. Its funny to think of rapture believers doing bunny hops as things turn bad around them!

But what is wrong for them to do, is to teach and promote the 'rapture' theory. That will be not so good for them. James 3:1

The Lord, thru His Prophets DOES tell us how He will protect his own faithful people DURING and through all that must happen until Jesus Returns in His glory to reign with us for 1000 years.

Interesting.

Especially when you spend all your time attacking the rapture but never offer any proof as to what you believe.

All bark and no bite.

 

[Jay Ross]

hello

Christ did not come to present a totally "new" covenant, He came to the House of Israel in the hope of getting Israel to repent of their idolatrous sins, but they did not want His light yoke upon them. Christ came with the Covenant of Salvation, "If you believe in Him Whom He has Sent, then you will have everlasting Life." Even Abraham believe God and His Salvation message and it was countered to him as righteousness.

If you unpack the Jer 31:31 verse properly, then the Hebrew will tell you that God will make like new again, with the house of Israel and Judah, the same covenant that he had entered into at Mt Sinai where He had entered into a Kingdom of Priest and a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations of the earth, which they had rebelled against at Mt Sinai. Within this covenant is also embedded the Salvation Covenantal constraints that all also need to adhere to.

When the 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God is completed, then all of Israel will be saved and God will re enter the Mt Sinai Covenant of a Kingdom of priests etc covenant with the nation of Israel at that time in our near future to become a blessing to all of the nations of the earth.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

I hear what you are saying. I agree about it being both. If this is just the beginning and things are to get worse, that is worrisome to me. I am just concerned that we could be in for another round soon. That it will be worse next year than last year. With this year having been a respite.

I must admit to becoming a bit desensitized to all the calamity in general. It seems never ending. Until a significant upswing in events takes place. Otherwise it is like background noise. That funny phenomenon like a noisy fridge. You get used to it. Tune it out. Then only notice it again when it stops!

It can be like that at times. But...I think rather than being "desensitized" to it, it's more of a "if I look at it and think about it too much, I'll just cry and cry...so I won't". I "turn it off"...which might not be a healthy way to deal with it all. And I'm so blessed that I live somewhere that I have that option and I'm not forced to live it daily. But when you attempt to be kept up with events around the world, it's like the planet and the people are screaming, and sometimes I just don't know how much more any of us can take.
For all that I don't think people can or should be claiming "it's gonna be now!", by golly I hope so.

Wow... Amillennialists noticing might be a sign unto itself! ;)

Snicker! Yeah...we don't get quite as excited by news events as you guys. But you'd be surprised at how often we talk "last things". It's pretty huge for us too.

Worldwide popularity only increases the chances he could be the one. The US's sudden withdrawal from Syria fits nicely into the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39. So many pieces fit. Its bewildering at times. He and Erdogan are worth watching at all times. And Damascus.

This is one area where Amillennialism ticks me off. I like the system. I find it generally more in line with what the bible says regarding all the other stuff. But those who usually teach and preach on Amill stuff don't really touch on Ezekiel and those other prophecies.
I mean...I gather that they believe that the Gog-Ma-gog War is actually the one and same as the one described in Revelation...the one after the Millennium. I haven't done any reading on that to see if I agree, thus far. But as far as the destruction of Damascus goes, I'm not sure I've heard anything about it. I think they'd say that prophecy has been fulfilled at some point in the past...but...I'm not sure we can say that, can we?
Anyway...like you, I watch this situation because I'm not sure and I find it interesting and I'm trying to see if what is happening now fits into scripture anywhere.

Yeah, the veganism is an offshoot of the save the planet cause. This is one way to do it, they say. I am solidly back on it right now as an experiment to see if my body can handle it. I've felt stronger because of it. Though I plan to moderate my consumption.

I wonder how this will go when the animals lose their fear of Man? Rev 6:8 Pit bulls are so popular here now for along time in the States and I imagine elsewhere. Not hating on that breed, but I do respect what a scenario where they lost all fear of mankind would be worrisome.

Perhaps if we soon learn of some major alterations in the ocean due to Fukushima, it will be easy to lay off the fish?

Do dogs only stay with people because they fear us? Not sure that's it. I think they love a good thing! Food, balls thrown, companionship!
Wild animals now...they've been killing people since the structure in the garden of Eden broke. No longer the guardian over them, Adam and his kin became the hunter or hunted. And thus it went.

Yeah. I am concerned that the second one is upon us and that, holding true to form, it has to be worse than the previous one. So even if it starts at the beginning of 2019, will this mean that it lasts all year long and is even worse than 2017? Setting new records? I honestly don't know?? Except that if it happens then we start to looking for less than one year between it and the following third pang. Which will be even worse. And so on.

Fainting from fear and eventually wanting rocks to fall on them to kill them. I could now more easily see that as things grow worse and worse. I often get accused of being too negative, but if I understand the Bible correctly and the times correctly, is there any other way to be?? Again, I don't know.

All I can say is that we are growing used to tragedies measuring in the mere 10s and dozens and even 100s. 50 or 60 is sad event, but not all that shocking anymore. It takes 100s and even 1000s to really get my attention. But if I understand Biblical prophecies, we're talking 10,000s and 100,000s coming. At some point, millions. Even with what is already present that is a challenge to wrap my mind around. But by the time were are conditioned will that be any thing special?

Death toll over 220 in the Saturday Indonesian tsunami. One almost has to go looking for such news nowadays. But I do know that something went wrong with one of the Kardashian's Christmas photo shoot. Trust me, I wasn't looking for that news! This tsunami being particular pernicious because it was in the dark and no earthquake rumblings to warn. They say that the think it was from a volcano. But 220 souls... meh.

I know what you mean...some of these reports are just causally mentioned. It used to be that they were in the news for days. Now, the only thing that's been in the media consistently for weeks is the stupid royal feud. Lives are cheap at the moment, unless they help push political agendas, but even then they're just statistics rather than faces and names. And yes...it is going to get worse. Worse for everyone, but also worse for Christians. I look at China...which the world is remaining quiet about...and it's "reprogamming" at the moment, and its stepping up of persecution of minority groups, like Christians. No one cares, however. Sign of the times, indeed.

I really appreciate the feedback.

It was just an observation and some speculation. So far it seems to be holding, but I would not be ready to really call it until a third pang is reached after two break. If that were to happen, things would have to be getting very close by then. And the inescapable pattern would be obvious. All we need is a Earth sized epidural!

I have decided to call this The Big Birth Pang Theory™.

True...like any good theory, establishment of fact needs to occur first. And even then I suppose you will need to be careful to avoid date setting...after all...while in labor things do get more intense and closer together, there is no real telling how long that labor lasts. Some lucky women have 5 hour labors. Some go through 30 hours of it. And as eager as we are for Christ to come, we musn't fall into the trap so many others have done and ignore his warnings that none shall know.
But, other than that...good luck!

 

[CoreIssue]

hello

Christ did not come to present a totally "new" covenant, He came to the House of Israel in the hope of getting Israel to repent of their idolatrous sins, but they did not want His light yoke upon them. Christ came with the Covenant of Salvation, "If you believe in Him Whom He has Sent, then you will have everlasting Life." Even Abraham believe God and His Salvation message and it was countered to him as righteousness.

If you unpack the Jer 31:31 verse properly, then the Hebrew will tell you that God will make like new again, with the house of Israel and Judah, the same covenant that he had entered into at Mt Sinai where He had entered into a Kingdom of Priest and a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations of the earth, which they had rebelled against at Mt Sinai. Within this covenant is also embedded the Salvation Covenantal constraints that all also need to adhere to.

When the 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God is completed, then all of Israel will be saved and God will re enter the Mt Sinai Covenant of a Kingdom of priests etc covenant with the nation of Israel at that time in our near future to become a blessing to all of the nations of the earth.

Shalom

Hebrews 8:6-13 New International Version (NIV)
6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and saida]">[a]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”b]">[b]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Not 2300 years of the Gentiles trampling the temple, 2300 days during the tribulation. There is no temple to trample at this time. Ezekiel's temple has not been built yet.

 

[Naomi25]

Thank you, Naomi25, your posts are a beam of the light of truth.

The sad fact is that those who have chosen to believe in a 'rapture to heaven' are locked into that theory and no amount of Biblical truth will change their minds. Also very difficult for them to suddenly renounce long held beliefs and their families and friends would think they had gone crazy.
Differing beliefs about God's Plans for His people are not fundamental doctrine and don't affect our Salvation. Its funny to think of rapture believers doing bunny hops as things turn bad around them!

But what is wrong for them to do, is to teach and promote the 'rapture' theory. That will be not so good for them. James 3:1

The Lord, thru His Prophets DOES tell us how He will protect his own faithful people DURING and through all that must happen until Jesus Returns in His glory to reign with us for 1000 years.

I've known several Rapture believers, and I love them. They are excited, sincere and eager. But...yes...they do seem so locked onto a particular doctrine that they don't really admit that the text in front of them doesn't actually say what they are claiming it does. I find too many holes in it, and have not had a single one of them able to answer convincingly. They fall back on their 'learned' arguments, which are far from convincing because, as I've said, the scriptures just don't say that...they are claiming it's implied, but that's a jump, skip and a leap, and I like my doctrines a little better laid out than that, thank you.

Christ told his Disciples that as they went out, not a hair on their head would perish. Did that happen? We know they all, bar John, died fairly horrible martyr's deaths. So what did Christ mean? He was talking about the second death. Christ's ultimate protection for us is always about the second death, about shielding us from the wrath of God. I think Rapture folk forget this. They are so keen to believe in being whisked out of here, which I admit is appealing, that they forget what's it all about...the salvation of the soul, and escaping the second death...blessed is he who escapes the second death.
Because how many Christians have suffered and died for their faith here on earth? Let's be honest about that. God does not call us to escape physical suffering and death. He calls us to escape damnation.

 

[CoreIssue]

I've known several Rapture believers, and I love them. They are excited, sincere and eager. But...yes...they do seem so locked onto a particular doctrine that they don't really admit that the text in front of them doesn't actually say what they are claiming it does. I find too many holes in it, and have not had a single one of them able to answer convincingly. They fall back on their 'learned' arguments, which are far from convincing because, as I've said, the scriptures just don't say that...they are claiming it's implied, but that's a jump, skip and a leap, and I like my doctrines a little better laid out than that, thank you.

Christ told his Disciples that as they went out, not a hair on their head would perish. Did that happen? We know they all, bar John, died fairly horrible martyr's deaths. So what did Christ mean? He was talking about the second death. Christ's ultimate protection for us is always about the second death, about shielding us from the wrath of God. I think Rapture folk forget this. They are so keen to believe in being whisked out of here, which I admit is appealing, that they forget what's it all about...the salvation of the soul, and escaping the second death...blessed is he who escapes the second death.
Because how many Christians have suffered and died for their faith here on earth? Let's be honest about that. God does not call us to escape physical suffering and death. He calls us to escape damnation.

And here you go again. When Christ sent them out he told them do not have an extra pair shoes, don't worry about food, don't carry a sword etc.

But when his ministry on the earth ended he told them to have extra sandals and to buy a sword.

The promise of the rapture was a one time deal. God said he does not test and try his people. So, when he was ready to test the earth, every last living person on it, to keep his promise he said he would remove us.

As far as you presenting answers, I have yet to see one that held water.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hebrews 8:6-13 New International Version (NIV)
6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and saida]">[a]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”b]">[b]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Not 2300 years of the Gentiles trampling the temple, 2300 days during the tribulation. There is no temple to trample at this time. Ezekiel's temple has not been built yet.

I believe that there will be around 3,475 years between the first covenant made at Mt Sinai and the making like new again of the same covenant in our near future, as confirmed by the Hebrews 8 chapter, that you quoted from. The 2,300 years fits well into this time period and started around 1,175 years after the initial Mt Sinai covenant was first entered into.

You cannot change these facts as the Bible confirms them as shown above in your post.

 

[CoreIssue]

I believe that there will be around 3,475 years between the first covenant made at Mt Sinai and the making like new again of the same covenant in our near future, as confirmed by the Hebrews 8 chapter, that you quoted from. The 2,300 years fits well into this time period and started around 1,175 years after the initial Mt Sinai covenant was first entered into.

You cannot change these facts as the Bible confirms them as shown above in your post.

Nothing in the Bible supports your thinking.

 

[Jay Ross]

Nothing in the Bible supports your thinking.

Back at you too. Nothing in the Bible supports your thinking. You have expressed your opinion which you are entitled to express but without confirming scriptures, it is a pointless post.

As for my thinking, Hebrews 8 confirms what I have written along with Jer 31:31ff and Dan 8 and Rom 11:25-26 to list those that spring to my immediate mind.

Shalom

 

[CoreIssue]

Back at you too. Nothing in the Bible supports your thinking. You have expressed your opinion which you are entitled to express but without confirming scriptures, it is a pointless post.

As for my thinking, Hebrews 8 confirms what I have written along with Jer 31:31ff and Dan 8 and Rom 11:25-26 to list those that spring to my immediate mind.

Shalom

You have presented nothing prove your 2300 years.

 

[Jay Ross]

You have presented nothing prove your 2300 years.

I already have. It is just that you do not want to accept what I have already posted. Sorry, but you prove why I am wrong from scripture instead.

Shalom