Can Jesus and Paul be reconciled on the LAW?

[Enoch111]

Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul

Since Paul wrote over half of the New Testament, why would anyone be wary of Paul (unless they have a hidden agenda)?

Paul received his thoughts and words from God the Holy Spirit, and everything he wrote was based upon the teachings of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ did not stop teaching after He ascended back to Heaven, but visited Paul several times to show him things which had not been formerly revealed.

There are many today who are making a huge effort to discredit Paul, claiming that his teachings are in conflict with those of Christ and the other apostles. THAT IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, as we learn from the apostle Peter, who placed all of Paul's epistles on the same level as the Old Testament Scriptures.

2 PETER 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter warns Christians to "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked". That includes making light of Paul's epistles.

 

[Danube]

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,
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Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."
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Romans 13:1-5
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

John 21:16-18
Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

Since Paul wrote over half of the New Testament, why would anyone be wary of Paul (unless they have a hidden agenda)?

Paul received his thoughts and words from God the Holy Spirit, and everything he wrote was based upon the teachings of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ did not stop teaching after He ascended back to Heaven, but visited Paul several times to show him things which had not been formerly revealed.

There are many today who are making a huge effort to discredit Paul, claiming that his teachings are in conflict with those of Christ and the other apostles. THAT IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, as we learn from the apostle Peter, who placed all of Paul's epistles on the same level as the Old Testament Scriptures.

2 PETER 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter warns Christians to "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked". That includes making light of Paul's epistles.

"beware lest ye ALSO, being led away with the error of the wicked"

"Also"

Why did Jesus rebuke Simon (Peter)?

Why should you or anyone feel threatened by reproving Pauls 3/4 of the NT?
The truth will NEVER fear scrutiny, hence Timothy contains the verse instructing you and me to do just that. God warned, Jesus warned, Timothy warned also John warned as did James ...all knew Jesus accept Paul & Timothy who was Paul' mentor, and who said ALL SCRIPTURE AND VERSE can be reproved (why would you say that?). We all need to be certain there is not a wolf in the sheeps fold. Does the honest man or the liar fear questioning?

 

[Waiting on him]

Since Paul wrote over half of the New Testament, why would anyone be wary of Paul (unless they have a hidden agenda)?

Paul received his thoughts and words from God the Holy Spirit, and everything he wrote was based upon the teachings of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ did not stop teaching after He ascended back to Heaven, but visited Paul several times to show him things which had not been formerly revealed.

There are many today who are making a huge effort to discredit Paul, claiming that his teachings are in conflict with those of Christ and the other apostles. THAT IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, as we learn from the apostle Peter, who placed all of Paul's epistles on the same level as the Old Testament Scriptures.

2 PETER 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter warns Christians to "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked". That includes making light of Paul's epistles.

AGREED

 

[Enoch111]

"beware lest ye ALSO, being led away with the error of the wicked"
"Also"
Why did Jesus rebuke Simon (Peter)?

What does that have to do with the subject under discussion? In fact you have not shown what is the connection between all the passages you have quoted and whether Paul is in conflict with Christ.

 

[Danube]

What does that have to do with the subject under discussion? In fact you have not shown what is the connection between all the passages you have quoted and whether Paul is in conflict with Christ.

Jesus rebukes Peter (Simon) who was swayed by Paul, which mirrors Timothy who was Pauls mentor and strangely asks the reader to reprove the scripture (including his own AND PAULS), which I take that to mean something is a-miss with the subject matter, effectively asking for the reader to prove it for HIMSELF. why?
Saul started out as an anti-christ and then writes himself into the NT as an apostle all hinged on his own testimony which Jesus SHOWED US cannot carry any conviction.
Read my quotes again in the previous post and look at the subject matter.

 

[mjrhealth]

The stupid thing of it all, is that Paul was the most qualified to preach the gospel to the gentiles, he who was qualified by his learning and position by men, who than having his eyes opened became qualified by Christ, and who cam to realize that all he knew was not worth a pinch of salt, to the knowing of Jesus Christ. His biggest problem as is Christ's, is that his gospel to us gentiles is grace by faith in Christ, who still today remains a stumbling block to many, who still seek there approval by there flesh,,

As he put it " he has become an example to us" but so few wish to follow his example and to forsake all for Christs sake.

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus rebukes Peter (Simon)...

You have dredged up an incident from before the resurrection of Christ and before Pentecost to put down Peter. But had you properly studied the Gospel, you would have discovered that (1) Peter was given the keys of the Kingdom by Christ, (2) Peter denied Christ but was restored fully, (3) Peter was the one who first preached the Gospel on the day of Pentecost and as a result 3,000 souls were saved. So that rebuke by Christ was history and should not be dredged up to muddy the waters

...who was swayed by Paul

Persuaded by Paul would be more accurate. But that is immaterial.

...which mirrors Timothy who was Pauls mentor and strangely asks the reader to reprove the scripture (including his own AND PAULS), which I take that to mean something is a-miss with the subject matter, effectively asking for the reader to prove it for HIMSELF. why?

This paragraph shows how totallyCONFUSED you are.

Saul started out as an anti-christ and then writes himself into the NT as an apostle all hinged on his own testimony which Jesus SHOWED US cannot carry any conviction.

This is so UTTERLY RIDICULOUS that it does not deserve any response.

 

[Danube]

What does Paul tell us?
Whatever he wants.... because unlike Jesus who had multiple witnesses to his life, ministry, death, resurrection ..Paul demands 100% trust in his own witness testimony that everything that happened..did!, writes about himself in his own works, never met Jesus either, nor once! And you casually sweep away all the warnings about wolves in sheeps clothing.

 

[Danube]

Why bother including a rebuke if you say it has no contextual influence on the later scriptures? You still havent gone anywhere near my old question of WHY timothy who is mentoring this "par excellence" disciple to reprove EVERYTHING he wrote?

If I told you Jesus text me but I couldnt show you the text message would you still believe me because my testimony would still be as strong as Pauls who had no witnesses to his miraculous conversion? These are simple facts you struggle to grasp. How does someone who commits a sin into death, flee from his accusers, runs into the desert (on his own) changes his name, rejects Peter (Johns son) when he arrives and then preaches a new gospel that we should bow down to the whim of the ruling government (the same earthly government/authority who sought to kill Jesus)
?
Would you prefer I read you a childrens story instead? Peter and the Wolf?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So are we the proof readers?
2 Timothy 3:16

What do you mean by proof readers? The verse talks about reproof, which means rebuke. The verse is also talking about what scripture does for us.

 

[Phoneman777]

We must repent in order to receive this grace/power. If it was unmerited, then we wouldn't have to repent, the whole world would be saved, called Universalism - a false doctrine.

Let me get this straight: What God has done:

• paid your sin debt through the blood of His Son
• came after you while yet His enemy
• arrested your attention so that He could tell you you're headed in the wrong direction
• made known to you His matchless love and Plan of Salvation
• kept you clothed in your right mind long enough to make the right decision
• then exchanges your stony heart for a new heart of love

What you have done:

• nothing - choice to accept Him as your Savior and Lord is thought, not works

...and yet you expect credit for making a "reasonable service", "unprofitable servant" decision?

 

[Phoneman777]

I would simply point out the only "proof" (no witness testimony only his own) of Paul being chosen by God came from himself in his own epistles written by himself.
I am begining to see why this Paul is all about faith, because his whole ministry depends on our faith that he was chosen in the first place....Or does scripture say different? I need more assurances, for my future eternity depends on it.

The "proof" that Paul was a chosen vessel of God is found in Peter's epistle where he in no uncertain terms ranks Paul's writings among and equal to in power and inspiration "the other Scriptures".

2 Peter 3:14-16:
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Ezra]

Thanks for the conversation Ezra.
I wouldn't of worried to much for the "felony" because if we allow ourselves to be governed by foreign Gods or alien law systems we forget what is a crime and what isn't. I doubt God would of seen any crime when you consider Gen 1:29 allows us to grow seed bearing plants for food, Marijuana (Cannabis L. sativa) is afterall a seed bearing plant, so what crime could you of been guilty of in Gods eyes?
Paul on the other hand has given testimony to every reader of the NT regarding a "crime unto death" (shedding of innocent blood). Big difference and probably why he met a violent end at the very place he omitted mercy (grace) to those early Christians.
Thanks for your time and honesty.

you have completely ignore the facts i grew the weed to sell and smoke... thus it was a crime my point is if my past has been forgiven all have sinned and come short of the glory of God..-past tense .. we all Have to come to Christ for salvation as per paul HIS SINS WAS FORGIVEN.... for you to suggest him not being saved .you are guilty of judging someone salvation.. my goodness how can you expect to have grace and mercy and deny Paul .
1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. i want you to tell me you have never committed any of these sins listed ever covet ?
in younger years had bad thoughts about a woman ? sin is sin your sin my sin paul sin all can be forgiven {regarding a "crime unto death" (shedding of innocent blood)} under the blood covered by grace

 

[Phoneman777]

That is a good one..I have never heard it said as simply as that.
I am tucking that one away.

( If you like Strongs..and I know some don't)
I do find that *Grace is much more than "unmerited favour"...
When we look a bit deeper , it is * "God ability in us, to do what we can't do."
...that would apply to all the old line up of saints found in Heb 11.,

Saved by grace through faith...

( I'm glad to see that you aren't just stuck in two threads at the moment! )

.......H

To God be the glory. I'm just repeating what I've heard others say and if you pass it along, then God is all the more praised

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Let me get this straight: What God has done:

• paid your sin debt through the blood of His Son
• came after you while yet His enemy
• arrested your attention so that He could tell you you're headed in the wrong direction
• made known to you His matchless love and Plan of Salvation
• kept you clothed in your right mind long enough to make the right decision
• then exchanges your stony heart for a new heart of love

What you have done:

• nothing - choice to accept Him as your Savior and Lord is thought, not works

...and yet you expect credit for making a "reasonable service", "unprofitable servant" decision?

So you are a Universalist? Or a Calvinist?

 

[Phoneman777]

That is a good one..I have never heard it said as simply as that.
I am tucking that one away.

( If you like Strongs..and I know some don't)
I do find that *Grace is much more than "unmerited favour"...
When we look a bit deeper , it is * "God ability in us, to do what we can't do."
...that would apply to all the old line up of saints found in Heb 11.,

Saved by grace through faith...

( I'm glad to see that you aren't just stuck in two threads at the moment! )

.......H

A nice very smart lady at my church always says "Grace is pardon for sin AND power to obey" which is exactly what your quote from Strong's says, because it is Him working in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure". Our part is to just take our hands off the wheel and let Him drive.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

A nice very smart lady at my church always says "Grace is pardon for sin AND power to obey" which is exactly what your quote from Strong's says, because it is Him working in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure". Our part is to just take our hands off the wheel and let Him drive.

Yes, grace is the power of God given to us to cause us to obey. Smart lady.

 

[Danube]

Hey Ezra... The point was obviously lost or missed. You cannot claim grace being free from Gods law and ignore your standing under mans legalistic system of authority, 2 masters type thingy (Paul loved the Roman government before and after his alleged conversion). Man has not the understanding to govern his peers or himself properly. God knows his children and they know him, his house his rules.. Back on earth....Ceasar just wants your cash. Outside of Gods laws you forfeit the protection of his laws. Mans laws are deficient in justice, deterant and only protect the authority, hence I giggle when someone preaches grace but still allows a man in a suit to commit theft, steal 20% of their income, kidnap people, hold them against their will, then release them afterwards (even if they have commited a sin unto death!!)
Hehe...cognitive dissonance at its most hypocritical!

That Pharisical yeast will keep the bread rising until it becomes an uprising! But it won't grow old "gracefully" ha!

 

[Helen]

A nice very smart lady at my church always says "Grace is pardon for sin AND power to obey" which is exactly what your quote from Strong's says, because it is Him working in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure". Our part is to just take our hands off the wheel and let Him drive.

LOVE IT!!

......

 

[Helen]

So you are a Universalist? Or a Calvinist?

Last time I checked @Phoneman777 was not...but, I live in hope!!

I don't like the word universalist....but I do stand in believing in UR

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."