Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

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justbyfaith

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Indeed. But one doesn't need a trinity to accept the deity of Christ.

I agree. However, you would appear to be teaching that the archangel Michael is God Almighty in your doctrine.

I say trinity = wrong Christ. Did you catch what I said earlier? The trinity teaches that all three are co-equal. If that's the case, can you explain why Jesus said in Mathew 12:41....

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Better yet...

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

That verse debunks a Trinity because blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other.

I believe in the deity of Christ. I just don't accept the trinity doctrine.

The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ. To speak against the human Jesus may or may not be speaking against the Spirit inside of Him.

The holy spirit emanates from the Throne of God and is the seven spirits of God.

He is, more accurately, the sevenfold Spirit of God that identifies the churches in the Book of Revelation.

Besides that the word, "Godhead" is a KJV mis-translation.

There are no mistranslations in the kjv.

That's a typical cop out.

I would call it a solid answer.

do not allow the foolishness of men to sway you.

It is not the foolishness of man, but of God (1 Corinthians 1:25).

The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

I agree on each one of these things; but would add that the Son is the Father while the Father is not the Son; and the Holy Spirit is the Father while the Father is not the Holy Spirit (so I guess that I disagree on that one).

I've learned over the years that the most logical and simple interpretation is usually the correct one. There's nothing logical or simple about the Trinity.

It is very simple and easy to understand for me. But then, I have received the Holy Ghost through the preferred method of Acts of the Apostles 2:38. Those who do not have the Spirit of God cannot comprehend the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

That's irrelevant. The Trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man at the same time. The typical trinitarian excuse is always, "that's was his Human nature."

If the Father, Jesus, and the holy spirit were co-equal, Jesus would not have said the Father is greater, he would not have said only the Father knows the day and hour of his return, he would not have said he can do nothing of himself, and blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other...

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I think that your problem is that you reject the solid answer that is given to you that Jesus is both human and divine and that in some things He is speaking primarily of His humanity...thinking of it as a "cop-out". It is not a cop-out: it is a solid answer that deals with all of your objections perfectly. You are not going to dismiss the truth of this answer that easily (calling it a cop-out is not going to make it go away).

IF the holy spirit was ONE person equal to God and Jesus, he would have a name, and he would be found in or around the Throne of God. IF the Trinity was true, it would be clearly expressed in the bible. It's not. There is no Trinitarian formula in the bible. Here is the Throne of God, Jesus is there, the Father God is there, where is the holy spirit? Can you tell me?

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The Spirit is mentioned as the living water in these verses.
 
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justbyfaith

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Again we sense something is wrong and ask, “Is this scripture correctly translated?

I see that you are gathered with the Mormons on this controversial issue.

If Jesus were God, whom would God have to become obedient to? No one! Therefore, this must be another entity, namely, his only begotten Son, clearly distinguishable from the Heavenly Father.

God became obedient to His former self in order to set an example for us.

The scriptures state that God has highly exalted our Lord. Had he been on equality with God before, how could he have been highly exalted after? Why should a third party exalt him when he could just as easily exalt himself?

Jesus showed the devil that he was wrong to exalt himself in the beginning by showing the true way in humbling Himself rather than exalting Himself.

Being ONE does not indicate they are co-equal. It simply implies they are of the same mind/spirit, purpose, and how they accomplish things. It means THEY ARE IN AGREEMENT. Just like when a husband and wife become ONE.

They are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6). There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). And no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

to be able to put aside all preconceived ideas

When we build a building, it is important that in constructing the second story of the building, we do not demolish the first. Of course, there are some who have a ministry of tearing down that which is not of the Lord (Jeremiah 1:10).

The Greek word “theos” should not have been translated godhead in Col 2:9, but rather divine or deity.

See 1 Timothy 6:4 and 2 Timothy 2:14. It is to the subverting of the hearers to make arguments and have strife over words. My only answer to this is that I believe that the kjv is the inerrant, inspired word of God; and that my faith in this is an evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1).

Martin Luther, the German priest who initiated the Protestant Reformation, conceded, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (reproduced in The Sermons of Martin Luther, John Lenker, editor, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406).

The word is not found there but the concept most certainly is.

If the trinity is a mystery and cannot be reasoned then it is inherent contradiction and cannot be true.

It is a very reasonable doctrine and can be understood; however, for some reason, most people when they come face to face with the reality of it have the tendency in their carnal minds to reject it, calling it modalism because they do not see that it is in all reality the Trinity that is being presented to them. Therefore in rejecting the real Trinity they are forced to construct something that is indeed unreasonable and their only option is to call it incomprehensible. In their defense, Isaiah 55:8-9 does seem to hold water. However in my own life, I find that the true Trinity is both reasonable and simple.

How many times do I have to post them? I know the typical trinitarian cop out of "That was because of his humanity."

Trinity teaches co-equality in power and knowledge. Jesus said The Father is Greater. BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Yes, in His humanity. Calling the solid answer to this a cop-out is not going to make it go away.

Jesus said he didn't know the day or hour of his return but ONLY the Father knows. Did Jesus forget? Or did he not know in the first place? BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Again, in His humanity Jesus had a finite human brain. Also, the nature of the earth is that when it is 2:00am in one place on the earth it can be 11:00pm on another day in a different place on the globe in the exact same moment.

Jesus said blasphemy against him would be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit would not. IF they are two the same blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other! BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Blasphemy against the human Jesus is forgiveable; because Jesus was human. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to insult the love of God: not so forgiveable.

Jesus said he can do nothing on his own. BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Jesus chose to be subordinate to the Father in order to set an example for all of us. And also to reveal to us how we can do the same miracles that He did: by relying on God instead of ourselves.

Jesus is called the “Son of God” more than 50 times in the Bible. Not once is he called “God the Son.” BOOM! Trinity debunked!

However, the Son is called God in Hebrews 1:8-9. Trinity established!

Jesus said, "“I ascend to my Father and your Father" and..."Jesus called the Father “my God” both before and after his resurrection." BOOM! Trinity debunked!

A little more difficult to explain, but explainable. Maybe in another post.

That makes no sense.

See 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 1:21.

I know he was tempted because he was human, but if he was God, the contradiction exist that God cannot be tempted!

Jesus as God was not tempted: for He was tempted in His humanity...not in His Deity. Also, how do you explain Matthew 4:7? If it were not possible to tempt the Lord God, no commandment would be needed to prohibit it.

Well then if he is NOT separate then Jesus was just wrong when he said "
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I said distinct not separate, like my spirit is distinct but not separate from my soul and my body.

Someone speaks against the human Jesus, that is forgiveable, they may not have all the facts: but if you insult the love of God by calling it satanic there is no forgiveness for you. And I am saying to you unequivocably that the love of God has nothing to do with satan.
 
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justbyfaith

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1. Where in the Scripture does it say that God is unitarian? (or that God exist as one person?)

Note: Nowhere in Scripture is God defined as one person, but rather as one Being: mono (from monos, meaning, alone or only one) and theism (from theos, meaning, God). Oneness adherents (along with Muslims and Jehovah’s Witnesses) wrongly assume that the concept or word “one” when referring to God (e.g., Deut. 6:4) has the strict denotative meaning of absolute solitude. Arguing unipersonalism (unitarianism) assumes a conclusion that is meant to be proved. 10 Questions to ask Oneness PENTECOSTALS

Any takers?

There are certain passages hidden in Isaiah (which if you read the whole book of Isaiah you will find in due process of time) that tell us that there is no God besides the LORD and that He is the only true God. In other words, there is not a second God created by an eternal mirror that descended to become Jesus. Jesus was begotten in the incarnation, is my testimony on the truth of this matter.
 
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101G

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There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5). The Father is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5). The Father is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 4:15, 2 John 1:3).

I'm going to leave the Holy Spirit out of this one (as a subject matter--:eek:). It is clear that He is a member of the Godhead.

The scriptures above show that the Son both is the Father; and is not the Father.

Matthew 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

here's one to answer Matthew 11:25. Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands".

now this, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".

now this one, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

now if this is not the SAME person, then the bible has some contridictions.

PS I need to know how one is using the term "Son", I hope not in a biological sense concering the Spirit NATURE. but in a metaphorically way of prominent moral characteristics, without descendants, and without reference to sex.
 

farouk

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Father, Son and Holy Spirit are manifestly revealed in the New Testament: all Three Persons of the Godhead. There are many references; it's a fundamental truth.
 

farouk

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There are certain passages hidden in Isaiah (which if you read the whole book of Isaiah you will find in due process of time) that tell us that there is no God besides the LORD and that He is the only true God. In other words, there is not a second God created by an eternal mirror that descended to become Jesus. Jesus was begotten in the incarnation, is my testimony on the truth of this matter.
The Son indeed always was (John 1).
 

101G

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A soul is one PERSON.
Definition of Person, a human being regarded as an individual. Supportive scripture, 1 Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

well what about God, do the Spirit have a "Soul", well let the record speak,
Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles".

Hmmmmmmm...... seems like God has a Soul, and from the verse it's "ONLY" ONE.
definition Time: Soul in the Hebrew,
H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (neh'-fesh) n-f.
1. (properly) a breathing creature, i.e. animal.
2. (abstractly) of vitality.
{used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)}

definition #2. defines the soul that is "Abstract" and God is ABSTRACT, meaning "Spirit". so what is "vitality?" the state of being strong and active; energy.
Well God is a being, or the only being, and he's strong, and active, and he's energy.

ok that God. and the verse here in Isaiah states that this Soul, the "I" is an individual "PERSON", not two or three separate but ONE individual PERSON.

well. and another well, well, well.

any trinity concept is gone.

but the trillion dollar and 42 cent question is, "how is the Lord Jesus the ONE God, and is EQUAL to him, meaning God who is a Spirit according to John 4:24a, but is his Son?....... o_O

I cain't wait to hear any answers. open to ANYONE to answer.


THESE SCRIPTURES HAS JUST ELIMINATED ANY TRINITY.
 

justbyfaith

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The Son indeed always was (John 1).
Indeed...for He was preincarnate as the Father...Isaiah 9:6.

Also, in meditating on John 1:1 a scripture that bears witness on the issue is Ephesians 4:10; in the understanding that Jesus ascended to again become outside of time (Isaiah 57:15).
 

farouk

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Indeed...for He was preincarnate as the Father...Isaiah 9:6.

Also, in meditating on John 1:1 a scripture that bears witness on the issue is Ephesians 4:10; in the understanding that Jesus ascended to again become outside of time (Isaiah 57:15).
The Isaiah 9.6 reference - Father of eternity - speaks of the Son's eternal preeminence, rather than implying that the Personality of Father and Son - as brought out in the New Testament - were not distinct.
 

justbyfaith

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The Isaiah 9.6 reference - Father of eternity - speaks of the Son's eternal preeminence, rather than implying that the Personality of Father and Son - as brought out in the New Testament - were not distinct.
The alternate interpretation does not negate or refute the primary one. And yes they are distinct...however they are not separate...for that would amount to Tritheism.
 

101G

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The alternate interpretation does not negate or refute the primary one.
it does, for the Lord Jesus is the ONLY eternal God, supportive scripture,
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

immortality: "the ability to live forever; eternal life". and if he's the "ONLY" one who has it then where do that leave the other two person in your Godhead? please answer.
 

justbyfaith

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ok, lets see. a person is defind as a human being regarded as an individual.
Isaiah 42:1 proves that "I" and "MY" in the vers is ONE "PERSON".
Yes they are one Person...but you have to see that the Father remained behind in eternity at the same "time" that He descended to become a Man...thus the Father was in heaven and the Son on earth.
 

justbyfaith

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it does, for the Lord Jesus is the ONLY eternal God, supportive scripture,
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

immortality: "the ability to live forever; eternal life". and if he's the "ONLY" one who has it then where do that leave the other two person in your Godhead? please answer.
They are the same Person; yet distinct from each other.
 

farouk

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Yes they are one Person...but you have to see that the Father remained behind in eternity at the same "time" that He descended to become a Man...thus the Father was in heaven and the Son on earth.
In the New Testament, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly three Persons.