Yes. Perhaps when he was a young man trying to understand the Commandments. The death penalty is stated in the Torah for many sins and crimes.
Alive without the Law (Rom. 7:9)
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As I have said earlier, that is possible, except Paul said that he was blameless according to the Law. (Phillipians 3:4-6) In other words Paul never saw the Law as killing him in his unsaved state.
Stranger
Neither does sin....but to experience liberation from sin is a further work of the cross....which is also by grace. We need to go to God to complete our entrance into the full grace of God.
Not a further work, as if it has not already been accomplished. The liberation from sin has already been accomplished by God.
No, our experience is based on what God has already completed, and believing Him, and learning to walk in it.
And the Law has no part in this. This is being 'alive without the Law'.
Stranger
This is of course a popular modern doctrine...but that has no basis in reality. People today don't believe it is possible to no longer sin. Paul was being honest. He was still sinning in spite of having no wish to. It was "sin in him". Then he needed to go to God so that this would become "no longer I (a deeper work of the cross) but Christ in him "....
I will ever wonder why people will do anything to avoid going to God directly. But there is no avoiding this if one wants to conquer sin....and really know the Lord. It happened one day where Jesus healed 10 lepers. Only one returned to encounter Jesus. Jesus asked....where are the other 9? Was it not to be expected that they would present themselves before the One who healed them? I suppose they were just learning to walk, as you say, in their new-found healing? But where is the focus? Where is the intimate knowledge of God in this?
That's right. But it is being alive in the grace that fulfills the law. The law is there to gauge the truth. Grace without truth is deception.
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Who said anything about not going to God directly? Who said anything about Christians not being sinners?
If you want to conquer sin, you can't turn to the Law. All that will do is create more sin and kill you. (Rom. 7:8-9)
Grace and truth don't need the Law as a gauge. It is no longer a gauge. In other words, 'alive without the Law as a gauge'.
Stranger
Yep the have rejected grace and so are dying in their sins, such is the death of those who choose the law,
alive in Christ or dead in the law, you cannot be a sinner and saved ....nor the righteousness of Christ and a sinner..
Hi Stranger,
My reference bible mentioned that Paul was either referencing his bar mitzvah or his conversion. To me it doesn't make sense that it was at his bar mitzvah because , as a Pharisee , he beilieved he was ' holier ' than the ordinary people . Outwardly they ' kept the law '. There is no evidence that any of the Pharisees believed they were sinners.
However at his conversion a new awareness of sin would have been realised - that it wasn't just about outward actions, but also inner thoughts, motives and desires. The very law that made him feel self righteous and okay with God , would have suddenly made him aware that he was infact failing the law - that he was a sinner in need of salvation - that he had not in fact been right with God at all.
If you think back to his conversion and how he was left ' without sight ' this must have been a very searching time for Paul, suddenly everything he had ever believed was in question- isn't this what happens when we ourselves are ' converted ' and ' convicted ' by the Holy Spirit.
I remember , prior to conversion, believing I was a ' good ' person - never killed anyone, never stolen anything ect - even in my non Christian world the Ten Commandments played a role and I believed I was okay with God. I wasn't - that was a wake up call- I was blind.
Sorry have no idea if any of this is relevant to your discussion - I get a bit bogged down with Pauls writing sometimes !
Rita
My reference bible mentioned that Paul was either referencing his bar mitzvah or his conversion. To me it doesn't make sense that it was at his bar mitzvah because , as a Pharisee , he beilieved he was ' holier ' than the ordinary people . Outwardly they ' kept the law '. There is no evidence that any of the Pharisees believed they were sinners.
However at his conversion a new awareness of sin would have been realised - that it wasn't just about outward actions, but also inner thoughts, motives and desires. The very law that made him feel self righteous and okay with God , would have suddenly made him aware that he was infact failing the law - that he was a sinner in need of salvation - that he had not in fact been right with God at all.
If you think back to his conversion and how he was left ' without sight ' this must have been a very searching time for Paul, suddenly everything he had ever believed was in question- isn't this what happens when we ourselves are ' converted ' and ' convicted ' by the Holy Spirit.
I remember , prior to conversion, believing I was a ' good ' person - never killed anyone, never stolen anything ect - even in my non Christian world the Ten Commandments played a role and I believed I was okay with God. I wasn't - that was a wake up call- I was blind.
Sorry have no idea if any of this is relevant to your discussion - I get a bit bogged down with Pauls writing sometimes !
Rita
Prophetic indeed was Paul's statement that after his departure there would arise the "mystery of lawlessness", and the system that instigated that mystery and embodied it, would be destroyed by the brightness of the second coming. So indeed today we have even professing Christians who boast of their lawlessness, and attempt tp spiritually destroy those who like their Master and Lord, seek to magnify the law and make it honourable, and like their Master, seek after righteousness and hate lawlessness.
1 John3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is lawlessness.
Matt. 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
That Jesus was speaking here specifically of the Ten Commandments is evident by the context of later verses.
Matt. 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that practice lawlessness.
1 John3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is lawlessness.
Matt. 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
That Jesus was speaking here specifically of the Ten Commandments is evident by the context of later verses.
Matt. 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that practice lawlessness.
Paul's writings are indeed searching. He did believe he was a good law-keeping...except without realizing it at first he had been covetous...
We can look within and - apart from the grace of God - see the beginnings of reasonings which in fact may differ greatly from the way we relate ourselves to others..
I have been endeavouring to understand why Paul conveyed what he did, I tend to be one of those who believe in context and if you understand the purpose for something being said it brings a wider understanding of the words being conveyed.
The way Paul writes is often a barrier to me, It bugs me because I want to understand in basic terms what he is saying - tried to do an open university course on his writings, still have the books - but I just couldn't get beyond the first stage of the course !!!
I know Paul was writing those young in faith, and perhaps they were presuming that they could do what they wanted and it didn't matter because they were saved, because they had grace .........
Over to the more In tune to his words !!
Perhaps someone can actually explain in simple terms what is meant by Paul
Rita
The way Paul writes is often a barrier to me, It bugs me because I want to understand in basic terms what he is saying - tried to do an open university course on his writings, still have the books - but I just couldn't get beyond the first stage of the course !!!
I know Paul was writing those young in faith, and perhaps they were presuming that they could do what they wanted and it didn't matter because they were saved, because they had grace .........
Over to the more In tune to his words !!
Perhaps someone can actually explain in simple terms what is meant by Paul
Rita
Alive without the law is one thing. But is it what we want? The law is holy, just, and good. Therefore whatever affect it has on our lives must also be holy, just, and good. Christ died to fulfill the law. In Him we must also die. And like Christ, as He died to the law once, so also are we alive in him. But we must die first. That is what baptism is all about. Raised with Christ, we live in Him... But Paul wasnt referring to His life in Christ when he said he was alive without the law... He needed the law to reveal his sin to convince him of his need of a saviour. After we are in Christ, the law had no power... No condemnation, for us. Not only are we justified without recourse to the law, we are daily sanctified by grace through the word of God and are cleansed from all unrighteousness.
But alive without the law, that is lawlessness, is the last thing we want. We need the law to remind us constantly of our need of Christ, and as a reminder of what He had accomplished for us.
KJV Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Etc etc etc
Only after we are delivered from bondage does the Lord reveal His promises to us... Thou shall not from this time forth, if you trust Me, worship any more idols....
But alive without the law, that is lawlessness, is the last thing we want. We need the law to remind us constantly of our need of Christ, and as a reminder of what He had accomplished for us.
KJV Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Etc etc etc
Only after we are delivered from bondage does the Lord reveal His promises to us... Thou shall not from this time forth, if you trust Me, worship any more idols....
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Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
it kills people is that a good thing, is that holy is that good for men to die in their sins as you seem to believe we should..
You asserted that LAW creates more sin, yet the only reason we see more crime is because crime is not punished properly according to Gods commands. If you don't believe in keeping Gods commandments (for whatever reason...) then where does the current LAW of grace protect those who will become victims of crime (the innocent abider to Gods Law or children/minors etc) ?
Yes. So how can the LAW itself then trick someone? I do not understand the point you made.
Do you believe "dying in your sin" means to pay for your sin..
IE "the wages of sin is death"?
Or do you mean the punishment (set by God) for murder & once proven is death for the criminal at the hand of the closest relative to the murdered ?
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