Premil vs Amil

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Mayflower

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John wrote warnings to those contemporary churches, but they were also prophetic in that they represented the seven euros or stages of the church age.

Today aspects of the first five churches are present in churches. Philadelphia are those believers who will be rapture. The seventh church coexists with Philadelphia and will be the apostate churches that will be spit out into the Tribulation Period.

Immediately after the church versus the seven lampstands of the churches are gone because the rapture has occurred.

Indeed, not a single church or living Christian is mentioned in Revelation thereafter because the rapture has occurred and the church is gone from the earth.

I like the idea about the stages of the church age. I was trying to decide which church I would most closely belong too. (Edit: Why the different aspects make sense) The church about being in prison for ten days to be tested is what stood out to me. I haven't studied the symbolism in detail, but this is how the raptured church was explained to me growing up.
 

farouk

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I like the idea about the stages of the church age. I was trying to decide which church I would most closely belong too. (Edit: Why the different aspects make sense) The church about being in prison for ten days to be tested is what stood out to me. I haven't studied the symbolism in detail, but this is how the raptured church was explained to me growing up.
Some would see the 7 churches of Asia as representing different calendar periods; others would see various tendencies which may occur during the day of before the Rapture.
 
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CoreIssue

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I can see that some would see both.

My 2c would also be that Laodicean lukewarmness has always been a problem; and can always arise. May we be stirred up as by His grace we keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2).

Remember, when talking about different periods of the church age were talking about the dominant aspect of that age.

Of course aspects of each has been found in all the ages
 
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farouk

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Remember, when talking about different periods of the church age were talking about the dominant aspect of that age.

Of course aspects of each has been found in all the ages
Yes, I can see that.

I myself come from a particularly rigorous form of independency, so I wouldn't necessarily see that one autonomous local church needs necessarily to be bracketed with others, with their own tendencies and emphases.
 
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Keraz

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For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. Philippians 3:20 Quote Mayflower

Have you or any 'rapture to heaven' believer carefully read this verse?
Does it say we Christians actually go to live in heaven? No it does not, our citizenship is just recorded there. And we await our Deliverer, coming from heaven, back to earth; as He promised.

It is nonsense to say the Church is not seen in Revelation, therefore it is raptured. The Christians ARE present in Revelation 12:6-17 and God's holy people ARE seen in Revelation 13:7
We ARE on earth when Jesus Returns, as He sends out His angels to gather His people. Matthew 24:30-31
 
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farouk

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THE GREAT TRIBULATION is the time of God's Wrath...and that tribulation comes after the seals have been opened.....(church doctrines have only taught about the 7 year tribulation which is misinterpreted by the way)….I have recently learned there are 3 tribulation periods in the Bible....makes sense to me...God has to cover all spiritual bases so that Satan will never again have authority over His creation.
There is the general tribulation principle in John 16.33, as well as the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24, which is a unique future event.
 

ScottA

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The Bible never does say that the Lord will take His people to live in heaven, why believe it?
That's not true. Here He does not use the word "heaven", but the bible does indeed say exactly the opposite:

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
 

Keraz

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That's not true. Here He does not use the word "heaven", but the bible does indeed say exactly the opposite:

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
So, where is the word 'heaven' there? Are you trying to fool me?

Jesus went to heaven and He is preparing the new Jerusalem, that will come down to earth after the Millennium, Revelation 21:1-7

Matthew 24:30-31 and 1Thess 4:17 plainly state that those Christians who remain; that is: those who survive all the prophesied events up to the Return of Jesus, will be gathered and will be with Him. As His priests and co-rulers; Revelation 5:9-10
Nowhere does the Bible say living Christians will go to live in heaven. That is a deception, a Satanic lie and is contrary to the Words of Jesus. John 3:13
 

Enoch111

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So, where is the word 'heaven' there? Are you trying to fool me?

In my Father's house are many mansions:...

1. Who is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ?
2. Where is His throne?
3. Where is His house (His dwelling place)?

Should you not have asked yourself those question before asking the above question?

So for all the naysayers, God refutes their fallacies with this one comment:

Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool... (Acts 7:49)

So where did Stephen go when he was martyred?

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
 
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ScottA

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So, where is the word 'heaven' there? Are you trying to fool me?

Jesus went to heaven and He is preparing the new Jerusalem, that will come down to earth after the Millennium, Revelation 21:1-7

Matthew 24:30-31 and 1Thess 4:17 plainly state that those Christians who remain; that is: those who survive all the prophesied events up to the Return of Jesus, will be gathered and will be with Him. As His priests and co-rulers; Revelation 5:9-10
Nowhere does the Bible say living Christians will go to live in heaven. That is a deception, a Satanic lie and is contrary to the Words of Jesus. John 3:13
You are fooled already. But I was upfront and told you ahead of time that the word "heaven" was not in the passage.

Nonetheless, John 14:3 proves you wrong, wherein Jesus says that He comes again, that where He is (a place not in the world), that we might be [there] also. Which place He clearly indicates is "heaven" in the verse you yourself gave: John 3:13.

The deception is yours...you even gave the scriptures that prove it.
 

Keraz

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I see no proof here whatsoever that the Church will be taken to heaven.

Realize this; there are plenty of good, born again Christians who reject the rapture. We do so because there is no scripture that says we will go to heaven. Some say our citizenship is kept there, some say the souls of the martyrs are kept under the Altar, the New Jerusalem is being built there, but NONE say that we will live there.
Only after the Millennium does the NJ come to the earth and God will dwell with mankind, on earth; what we pray for in the Lord's prayer.

I know that those who do believe in the rapture are committed to it. To renounce it would be a huge change that may alienate friends and family. So: just be aware that there is an alternative; the protection of the Lord during all that must happen and how those who stand firm in their faith, enduring until the end, will be greatly rewarded.
 
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Keraz

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God’s Holy People in the Last Days: The rapture totally refuted.

Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand. This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.


Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

Isaiah 62:12 They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord….

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Zechariah 14:1-2

Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.


These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.

As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree, Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers.

We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.

That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.


What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.

Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!

For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!


There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think escape all these things, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]