Calvinism is NOT a Cult!

[Mjh29]

When we worship a God who isn't selfish, we become like Him...unselfish.

So the requirement that we worship Him is for our benefit...in order that we might become like the One whom we worship, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

re #195.

No... we worship Him because He is God, and He is deserving of praise, unlike anything else. Yes, we are transformed to be more like Him as we study and read the Scriptures, but this verse is not saying we praise Him to become more like Him.

Everything in the universe exists for the sole purpose of bringing God ultimate glory.

This is the problem with Arminianism; it is so selfish. Making the gospel out to be nothing more than a glorified story about us, when it is a story of Christ's work. Making salvation out to be nothing more than a correct choice that we made, when it is the story of how God took our selfish unwillingness and made us willing. Making it the story of how we earned our way into heaven with a correct choice rather than relying solely on the blood of Christ, which you claim would never work unless we make it work by choosing to have faith. What a man-centered, selfish gospel it is if the only point of it is to make sure I get to go to heaven.

 

[Waiting on him]

The first and third groups that you mention fall into the same category of no.

Then why is everyone saying they do the work? We are in the sabbath rest of the Lord

 

[Waiting on him]

Then why is everyone saying they do the work? We are in the sabbath rest of the Lord

Look at the sheep. When did we do these things LORD?

 

[Waiting on him]

The first and third groups that you mention fall into the same category of no.

Although, according to the parable, the second and third group would be the ones who truly say no, since the first group says, "I will go," and then doesn't.

That’s not what their saying. Their saying IIIIIIIII Idid the work

 

[justbyfaith]

What’s the point?

Never mind, then.

This is the problem with Arminianism; it is so selfish. Making the gospel out to be nothing more than a glorified story about us, when it is a story of Christ's work. Making salvation out to be nothing more than a correct choice that we made, when it is the story of how God took our selfish unwillingness and made us willing. Making it the story of how we earned our way into heaven with a correct choice rather than relying solely on the blood of Christ, which you claim would never work unless we make it work by choosing to have faith. What a man-centered, selfish gospel it is if the only point of it is to make sure I get to go to heaven.

The point of the gospel is that God so loved the world...that's what makes it good news to self-centered man.

No doubt, we are all selfish by nature...how else would we receive the message of the gospel unless there was something in it for us?

Of course, once we enter into a relationship with Christ, God begins to work on our selfish nature.

 

[justbyfaith]

That’s not what their saying. Their saying IIIIIIIII Idid the work

You are evidently not looking at the same scriptures that I am looking at.

 

[Mjh29]

Never mind, then.



The point of the gospel is that God so loved the world...that's what makes it good news to self-centered man.

No doubt, we are all selfish by nature...how else would we receive the message of the gospel unless there was something in it for us?

Of course, once we enter into a relationship with Christ, God begins to work on our selfish nature.

But considering that the doctrine of Total Depravity is a major tenet of Calvinism, I am surprised that it now appeals to its opponent being man-centered in its own defense. It is so virtuous in that it centers itself on a selfish God!

Please explain how total depravity is man-centered. Please. This ought to be good.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please explain how total depravity is man-centered. Please. This ought to be good.

I didn't quite say what I said the way the I wanted to say it, so I subsequently deleted it.

However, the point that I was making is that with total depravity, a gospel that appeals to the self-centeredness of man would be the only gospel that self-centered man would be able to receive. But you say that the gospel is God-centered; and it is. However, it is extended towards all of mankind and that is what makes it the good news to those of us who are selfish.

When, in our selfishness, we begin to find our iniquity to be hateful, that is when self-centered man will repent of his iniquity.

Total Depravity tells us that man is self-centered. Therefore a gospel that does not appeal to man's self-centeredness in some way will never succeed at wining souls.

However the true gospel grabs hold of man's self-centeredness and uses it to bring him to a place where he will surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ so that he will become unselfish in the long run.

People usually receive Christ because they see the joy on the faces of born again Christians; and/or because they want to avoid the punishment of hell.

And no, when they receive it for these (selfish) reasons God still does honour their faith decision. God takes the vile and brings the precious out of it; just as He told Jeremiah that if he also did so, God would make him His mouthpiece.

 

[Helen]

Are you saying that God is not deserving of everything being for His glory?

Agree...but don't lets forget it is about Him and us.
He created man for His glory...to reflect Himself in the earth.
( we aren't doing a very good job of doing it are we?....I think the church's "reflector" is broken )

 

[Waiting on him]

You are evidently not looking at the same scriptures that I am looking at.

Agreed

 

[Waiting on him]

Agree...but don't lets forget it is about Him and us.
He created man for His glory...to reflect Himself in the earth.
( we aren't doing a very good job of doing it are we?....I think the church's "reflector" is broken )

Maybe he’s not there?

 

[Mjh29]

I didn't quite say what I said the way the I wanted to say it, so I subsequently deleted it.

However, the point that I was making is that with total depravity, a gospel that appeals to the self-centeredness of man would be the only gospel that self-centered man would be able to receive. But you say that the gospel is God-centered; and it is. However, it is extended towards all of mankind and that is what makes it the good news to those of us who are selfish.

When, in our selfishness, we begin to find our iniquity to be hateful, that is when self-centered man will repent of his iniquity.

Total Depravity tells us that man is self-centered. Therefore a gospel that does not appeal to man's self-centeredness in some way will never succeed at wining souls.

However the true gospel grabs hold of man's self-centeredness and uses it to bring him to a place where he will surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ so that he will become unselfish in the long run.

People usually receive Christ because they see the joy on the faces of born again Christians; and/or because they want to avoid the punishment of hell.

And no, when they receive it for these reasons God still does honour their faith decision. God takes the vile and brings the precious out of it; just as He told Jeremiah that if he also did so, God would make him His mouthpiece.

So what your saying is our faith is spurned by selfish desires? That we make a correct choice out of selfish ambition to get what we want, and this is what saves us? And you'd rather believe this than that it was all of the Holy Spirit from start to finish?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So what your saying is our faith is spurned by selfish desires? That we make a correct choice out of selfish ambition to get what we want, and this is what saves us? And you'd rather believe this than that it was all of the Holy Spirit from start to finish?

View attachment 5456

He just makes up what he believes as he goes along then decides it must be true since he thought it up. Contextually interpreted Scripture doesn't do it for him, so...

 

[Helen]

Maybe he’s not there?

....

 

[justbyfaith]

So what your saying is our faith is spurned by selfish desires? That we make a correct choice out of selfish ambition to get what we want, and this is what saves us? And you'd rather believe this than that it was all of the Holy Spirit from start to finish?

He just makes up what he believes as he goes along then decides it must be true since he thought it up. Contextually interpreted Scripture doesn't do it for him, so...

It does answer one of the major reasons why people believe in Calvinism, though, doesn't it?

It defeats the concept that God has to regenerate someone before they can have faith, which is very unbiblical. So I think I will stick with it.

 

[justbyfaith]

That we make a correct choice out of selfish ambition to get what we want, and this is what saves us?

Really, Paul said at one point that one of his goals was to provoke the Jewish people to emulation (that they might be saved) through the witness of Gentile believers that he would win to Christ.

Emulations is listed as a work of the flesh in Galatians.

 

[Dave L]

Where does the verse say that?

““I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life.” (John 6:47) (HCSB) You already had eternal life before you chose to believe. That is, you already believed enough or you would not have chosen to submit to God.

Also, eternal life is without beginning or end. So you were always saved in the mind of God. And he brought it to your attention when you believed enough to decide to believe and do whatever else you think you must do. In the bible, they got baptized if they believed instead of "going forward" and making "decisions". etc.

 

[Mjh29]

It does answer one of the major reasons why people believe in Calvinism, though, doesn't it?

It defeats the concept that God has to regenerate someone before they can have faith, which is very unbiblical. So I think I will stick with it.

It does answer one of the major reasons why people believe in Calvinism, though, doesn't it?

It defeats the concept that God has to regenerate someone before they can have faith, which is very unbiblical. So I think I will stick with it.

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves.
Philippians 2:3
-Still trying to find where this verse says "Do nothing except selfishly accept God for your own personal gain...


No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
1 Corinthians 10:24
-Except when they want to seek their own personal gain of heaven.... no not here either

Turn my heart toward your statutes
and not toward selfish gain.
Psalm 119:36
1.) David should know better than to ask God to turn his heart, right? How foolish David was,right?
2.) So, if you can only have faith because of your own selfish desires, is David asking God to turn Him away from faith?

 

[Dave L]

Dance, little puppets , dance.

Does God energize you? Or do you make your heart beat?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

““I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life.” (John 6:47) (HCSB) You already had eternal life before you chose to believe. That is, you already believed enough or you would not have chosen to submit to God.

Also, eternal life is without beginning or end. So you were always saved in the mind of God. And he brought it to your attention when you believed enough to decide to believe and do whatever else you think you must do. In the bible, they got baptized if they believed instead of "going forward" and making "decisions". etc.

"But you do not believe because you are not of My SHEEP... John 10:26

My SHEEP hear my voice...John 10:27

For you were straying like SHEEP, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls...1 Peter 2:25