Why The Two Legs Of Daniel 2 Represent Only Western Rome

[Phoneman777]

That's not a true statement at all. Here are some futurist teachings from some of the early church fathers:
Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..

That proves nothing, he's just repeating what Paul said

The Pastor of Hermes - " Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself" (Chapter xvi)

Seriously, bro, where do you see a "secret rapture", "last 7 years of trib", "peace treaty between Arabs and Jews"? You've proved nothing.

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Seriously, bro, where do you see a "secret rapture", "last 7 years of trib", "peace treaty between Arabs and Jews"? You've proved nothing.

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millenium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively. Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Objection. Inadmissible. Hearsay. Please post their actual sentiments so we can review them to see if that's what they actually believed.

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

Seriously, bro, where do you see a "secret rapture", "last 7 years of trib", "peace treaty between Arabs and Jews"? You've proved nothing.

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree that Jesus can be considered that, however, if it was just a person Daniel had in mind, a different word would have been used. I see no reason that when the time comes it can't be both.

Someone said only two of the six points in Daniel 9:25 have been fulfilled - and thus demands there be a 2,000 year "gap" in the prophecy, so I posted how it can be shown that Jesus actually fulfilled all six at His coming.

But the text does not demand that all six points be fulfilled at the close of the 70 Weeks. If 70 dollars are (cut off) from the money tree in my front yard:
to finish messing up my Thanksgiving turkey dinner and to make and end of hungry people,
to make reconciliation for delaying the dinner bell and to bring in everlasting turkey naps,
to seal up the leftovers in bags, and to anoint the desert cups with Cool Whip...

...does any thinking person really expect that these six reasons for cutting off the 70 bucks will be fulfilled with the last snip of the scissors, or are the six reasons listed as only to serve for answering the question WHY am I cutting off the 70 bucks from the money tree and has nothing to do with WHEN all six reasons will be accomplished?

 

[Trekson]

Seriously, bro, where do you see a "secret rapture", "last 7 years of trib", "peace treaty between Arabs and Jews"? You've proved nothing.

I believe if I did prove it you wouldn't admit it anyway, btw, I don't believe in a secret rapture, I do believe calling the last seven year the "trib period" is inaccurate and while the 7 yr. covenant could be between the Arabs and the Jews, I haven't made that claim, so please stop insinuating that I believe things that I have never stated. I don't care if you will accept the truths I presented or not. You said, "the early church never taught it" and I proved that hundreds of years after the disciples had passed on they spoke with a futurist outlook on prophecy so your claims are bogus.

 

[Trekson]

...does any thinking person really expect that these six reasons for cutting off the 70 bucks will be fulfilled with the last snip of the scissors, or are the six reasons listed as only to serve for answering the question WHY am I cutting off the 70 bucks from the money tree and has nothing to do with WHEN all six reasons will be accomplished?

I think you're proving my point here. You are the one demanding it was fulfilled in 70ad while I am the one saying that it doesn't matter WHEN they are all accomplished even if it's 2000+ years later, just that all things need to be accomplished for the turkey dinner to be done. If you were eternal as Jesus is, then you could very well stretch out your list for 2000 yrs. or more because from his point of view it's only been a couple of days.

 

[brakelite]

You said, "the early church never taught it" and I proved that hundreds of years after the disciples had passed on they spoke with a futurist outlook on prophecy so your claims are bogus.

The early church was still historicist in nature...they knew where they were, recognising there was much yet to be fulfilled, but also recognising what had been already fulfilled. For example, when considering the restrainer and the restrained, (that which with-held the coming of antichrist) the early church fathers were unanimous.
Let me start with Tertullian (160-240 A. D.):

“‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder,

until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling

away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its

own ruins)? ‘And then shall be revealed the wicked one.” “On the Resurrection of the

Flesh,” chapter 24; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III, p. 563

(Author: There is some debate as to whether the ‘falling away’ referred to here is in reference to the empire, or the church. Some say one, some the other, while some would contend that it can apply equally to both. Either way, Tertullian was certain in his belief that the restrainer was the Roman Empire. That it was Rome itself that inhibited in some way the rise of the antichrist. This was generally accepted throughout the church at that time, and it was common for the church to pray to God that He would keep the Roman power intact in order to keep the antichrist to coming to power in their time. Interesting also is Tertullian’s reference to the ten kingdoms that would result from the break up of Rome. This is a direct reference to Daniel 7 and the ten horns that would grow from the 4th beast, Rome. The Antichrist, according to Bible scholars, was the 11th horn. Tertullian was using the historicist method of prophetic interpretation, that method which viewed prophecy as an historical unfolding throughout history from the time the prophecy was first given, and culminating at the second coming. This is significant when understanding Paul’s letter, because Paul is clear that the Antichrist would appear as soon as Rome moves aside, and that very same Antichrist would still be there to be judged at the second coming. Not futurist, not preterist, but a historicist approach, just like Tertullian.)

In yet another comment, Tertullian states: “The very end of all things threatening dreadful woes is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman Empire.”

(“Apology,” chapter 32; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 43).

A little later Lactantius,. in the early fourth century wrote: “The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains, it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world? It is that city, that only, which still sustains all things.” (“The Divine Institutes,” book 7, chapter 25; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 220).

Also early in the fourth century Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386 A. D.)had this to say: “But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman Empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after those an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, ‘three he shall humble,’ and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself.” (Catechetical Lectures,” section 15, on II Thessalonians 2:4; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 108 [New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1895]).

(Author: Much could be said about this quote; he also is clearly linking the prophecy of Daniel to the text of Paul’s, agreeing with other eminent writers of his time that out of Rome would evolve ten kings, 3 of whom the antichrist would subdue. When the restrainer, Rome, was to be taken out of the way, and the horns of Daniel 7 arise, the antichrist would be revealed.)

Now I would present the testimony of Ambrose (died in 398): “After the falling or decay of the Roman Empire, Antichrist shall appear.” (Quoted in, Bishop Thomas Newton,

Dissertations on the Prophecies, p. 463)……

….and Chrysostom (died in 407): “When the Roman Empire is taken out of the way, then he [the Antichrist] shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God.”

“Homily IV on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. XIII, p. 389

[New York: Charles Scribner’s and Sons, 1905]…..

…and finally Jerome (died 420): “He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near.”

(Letter to Ageruchia, written about 409A. D. Letter 123, section 16; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI, p. 236

Jerome’s testimony is interesting. He admits and agrees with other early church fathers of his era that Rome was the restrainer, and had already been removed in his (Jerome’s) lifetime. Yet it had not yet been made apparent who the power was that could definitively be called the Antichrist. Why? Because from Jerome’s perspective, he could not see all the signs of the Antichrist’s coming, as they had yet to be revealed in history. The capital of the empire had been removed to Constantinople, and the Gothic barbarian kings were already well entrenched in ongoing battles and wars to decide who would rule over the territories not long since vacated by Rome, but the three horns to be subdued were still in power. When they were subdued, it would then be known by whose power they were done away, and the identity of Antichrist would be revealed. That revelation was clear to the reformers as they looked back 5 or 600 years in history and recognised the demise of western Rome...the rise of the ten kingdoms and the demise of 3 of them, then the rise of the 11th horn, Papal Rome, which entity fulfilled all the other criteria demanded of scripture, thus giving the reformers solid incontrovertible evidence as to the precise identity of Antichrist.

 

[Trekson]

I don't think it's a matter of admission or revelation, it's simply a matter of each generation, as a matter of expectancy, views prophecy through the only lens they have available and that is what is happening in the world around them. Certainly not everything they wrote can be considered gospel. My use of the early fathers was broad with seeing things as future in general w/o specifics. Obviously, history has shown that Rome was/is not the restrainer, nor does the Rome from their time compare in any way close to what Rome is in our time. Not too long ago, many members of this site were swearing up and down the Sadaam Hussein was the a/c. I readily admit that I view prophecy in the same way, by observing global events and if things were to change significantly, my opinions could as well.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

PART 1
In Bible history, the “fourth kingdom,” or world power, counting down from Babylon, is the Roman Empire, with Medo-Persia and Greece in between. In course of time the Roman Empire was subdivided, for better administrative purposes, into an eastern empire and a western empire. It was out of this western empire that there came the outgrowth of the British Empire. As a result of the revolution of the American colonies, the United States of America was established. For vital fundamental reasons these two countries found it convenient to cooperate together militarily and otherwise so as to form in effect the Anglo-American World Power.

However, with regard to that “fourth kingdom”—in its original identity as the Roman Empire—Daniel tells us in another of his prophecies:

“After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. And it had teeth of iron, big ones. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet. And it was something different from all the other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns.”—Dan. 7:7.

Lets read on, in Daniel 7:8:

“I kept on considering the horns, and, look! another horn, a small one, came up in among them, and there were three of the first horns that were plucked up from before it. And, look! there were eyes like the eyes of a man in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking grandiose things.”

How interesting! This fourth kingdom, the Roman World Power, starts growing another horn out of its symbolic beastlike head. And three of the existing horns are plucked up to make way for this outgrowth. What does all of this mean? Let us look at the facts of history.

 

[Enoch111]

Let us look at the facts of history.

Since that has not happened, you will not find it in history. It is prophecy for the future.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

PART 2

Rome, from its inception, was very much a military power, and it extended its influence and control widely. Britain, at that time basically under the influence of tribal kingship, became part of the Roman Empire, and throughout the British Isles there are many evidences of such domination. These include the wall Emperor Hadrian built across the northern part of England.

As Rome became more affluent and increasingly decadent because of the licentious living of its ruling class, it diminished as a military power. By the time of Nero and successive emperors, the decline of Rome’s military might was clearly evident. But the perpetuators of this empire devised a scheme to keep it going as a dominant factor in world affairs for centuries to come, even though not as a military power. How was this done?

Coming forward into the third and fourth centuries C.E., it appears that Rome became very much a religio-political power, in addition to being a military power. Artfully, a scheme was devised whereby the papal authority in Rome was able to maintain control far and wide over a great portion of the then known inhabited earth. This arrangement was known as the feudal system and, with the aid of it the Holy Roman Empire with Papal Rome as its focal point, dictated the course of world affairs for at least 1,000 years.

Under the feudal system, the vast majority of people eked out a living as peasants in abject ignorance and poverty. From their meager livelihood, they were required to support the indolent lords of the manor houses and castles throughout Europe, including the British Isles. In turn, these feudal lords were compelled to pay tribute, or tax, to the king in whose domain they found themselves. Then each of the kings, whether in England, Saxony or other parts of Europe, basically were vassal-like in their existence and were required to pay feudal dues or tribute to the papacy at Rome. Hence, the papacy grew wealthy both in riches and authority throughout that long period often called the Dark Ages.

Against this historical backdrop, how apt seems Daniel’s prophetic description of a kingdom represented by the iron legs of the “immense image”! (Dan. 2:31) And how appropriate the fearsome, crushing and devouring beast with iron teeth represented in Daniel chapter seven! First, it rampaged throughout Europe, subjecting everything in its path by military might. Then it maintained and further consolidated its power by political, religious and commercial enterprise and subterfuge. But what about this outgrowth, this ‘small horn,’ that is seen to grow out of the head of the fearsome “fourth beast” representing Rome? When does this occur?

Until the year 1533 C.E., British kingship remained vassal-like in makeup, being subject to the papacy. The following year, however, King Henry VIII became the supreme head of the Catholic Church of England. He severed ties with Rome and they with him. Now the wealth of the British Isles, much of which previously had been siphoned off by the Roman Catholic Church, was being accumulated under the headship of the king of England over the English Catholic Church. (The Catholic Church of England retained the same format as the Roman Catholic Church and, to a large extent, does to this day.) The power of the Holy Roman Empire was beginning to wane, but from it a ‘small horn’ was growing.

A few decades roll by and Britain finds itself under the rulership of Queen Elizabeth I. By this time the accumulated wealth of the feudal system within the British Isles is having its effect. A naval fleet of some prowess has emerged. In a short while, under the guidance of such noted men as Drake, Raleigh and Hawkins, the British fleet makes itself felt in conflict with the naval powers of Spain, the Netherlands and France (all still under Rome’s ritual domination), causing defeat to all, including the Spanish Armada. As a consequence, Britain rules the waves and boasts about it.

What does Daniel 7:8 say? Yes, three “horns” would be plucked up from before this outgrowth, the ‘small horn,’ and it would speak “grandiose things.” So here, with the emergence of the British World Power, later joined by America, we have the absolute fulfillment of this grand prophecy. The Anglo-American World Power is an outgrowth of the Roman Empire. It is Rome’s “baby.” Hence, it is prophetically represented as growing out of the “head” of Rome, the “fourth beast” with iron teeth. By paralleling Daniel chapters two and seven, it is easy to see how the ‘legs of iron’ represent two successive world powers and not just one.—Dan. 2:32, 33.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Since that has not happened, you will not find it in history. It is prophecy for the future.

PART 2

Rome, from its inception, was very much a military power, and it extended its influence and control widely. Britain, at that time basically under the influence of tribal kingship, became part of the Roman Empire, and throughout the British Isles there are many evidences of such domination. These include the wall Emperor Hadrian built across the northern part of England.

As Rome became more affluent and increasingly decadent because of the licentious living of its ruling class, it diminished as a military power. By the time of Nero and successive emperors, the decline of Rome’s military might was clearly evident. But the perpetuators of this empire devised a scheme to keep it going as a dominant factor in world affairs for centuries to come, even though not as a military power. How was this done?

Coming forward into the third and fourth centuries C.E., it appears that Rome became very much a religio-political power, in addition to being a military power. Artfully, a scheme was devised whereby the papal authority in Rome was able to maintain control far and wide over a great portion of the then known inhabited earth. This arrangement was known as the feudal system and, with the aid of it the Holy Roman Empire with Papal Rome as its focal point, dictated the course of world affairs for at least 1,000 years.

Under the feudal system, the vast majority of people eked out a living as peasants in abject ignorance and poverty. From their meager livelihood, they were required to support the indolent lords of the manor houses and castles throughout Europe, including the British Isles. In turn, these feudal lords were compelled to pay tribute, or tax, to the king in whose domain they found themselves. Then each of the kings, whether in England, Saxony or other parts of Europe, basically were vassal-like in their existence and were required to pay feudal dues or tribute to the papacy at Rome. Hence, the papacy grew wealthy both in riches and authority throughout that long period often called the Dark Ages.

Against this historical backdrop, how apt seems Daniel’s prophetic description of a kingdom represented by the iron legs of the “immense image”! (Dan. 2:31) And how appropriate the fearsome, crushing and devouring beast with iron teeth represented in Daniel chapter seven! First, it rampaged throughout Europe, subjecting everything in its path by military might. Then it maintained and further consolidated its power by political, religious and commercial enterprise and subterfuge. But what about this outgrowth, this ‘small horn,’ that is seen to grow out of the head of the fearsome “fourth beast” representing Rome? When does this occur?

Until the year 1533 C.E., British kingship remained vassal-like in makeup, being subject to the papacy. The following year, however, King Henry VIII became the supreme head of the Catholic Church of England. He severed ties with Rome and they with him. Now the wealth of the British Isles, much of which previously had been siphoned off by the Roman Catholic Church, was being accumulated under the headship of the king of England over the English Catholic Church. (The Catholic Church of England retained the same format as the Roman Catholic Church and, to a large extent, does to this day.) The power of the Holy Roman Empire was beginning to wane, but from it a ‘small horn’ was growing.

A few decades roll by and Britain finds itself under the rulership of Queen Elizabeth I. By this time the accumulated wealth of the feudal system within the British Isles is having its effect. A naval fleet of some prowess has emerged. In a short while, under the guidance of such noted men as Drake, Raleigh and Hawkins, the British fleet makes itself felt in conflict with the naval powers of Spain, the Netherlands and France (all still under Rome’s ritual domination), causing defeat to all, including the Spanish Armada. As a consequence, Britain rules the waves and boasts about it.

What does Daniel 7:8 say? Yes, three “horns” would be plucked up from before this outgrowth, the ‘small horn,’ and it would speak “grandiose things.” So here, with the emergence of the British World Power, later joined by America, we have the absolute fulfillment of this grand prophecy. The Anglo-American World Power is an outgrowth of the Roman Empire. It is Rome’s “baby.” Hence, it is prophetically represented as growing out of the “head” of Rome, the “fourth beast” with iron teeth. By paralleling Daniel chapters two and seven, it is easy to see how the ‘legs of iron’ represent two successive world powers and not just one.—Dan. 2:32, 33.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

PART 3

Revelation 17: 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.

The empire that Revelation say, "one is", was the Roman empire which includes papal Rome. Another kingdom is to arrive and remain a short time after papal Rome.

According to Daniel 2:41-43, we note that clearly identifiable world kingdoms would pass. Do the two ‘legs of iron,’ then, each represent a separate world power? No, not so, any more than the two ‘arms of silver’ in the upper part of the image stand for two world powers in the heyday of Medo-Persia. Those two legs and the iron of the feet develop together out of the Roman Empire, and especially from the fourth century, when Constantine leaves his western capital at Rome to establish an eastern capital at Constantinople. Out of this divided empire descend various dependent nations, with the Anglo-American World Power finally gaining dominance. During the two world wars of our century, those “legs” proved indeed to be like “iron” as the Anglo-American World Power’s military might crushed opposing armies and used nuclear armament in war for the first time.

Here, we come down to the extremity of this immense image. It still represents the Anglo-American World Power. But now it has a weakness. Its feet and toes have lost the full ironlike strength of the legs. For they are made “partly of iron and partly of molded clay.” Daniel interprets this, saying:

“Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.”—Dan. 2:33, 43.

Does this mean that the modern socialistic and communistic rulers become a world power? No, for Bible prophecy indicates that those political elements of a popular kind will never rise to world dominance. The last part of the terrible image, as it comes to its extremity in the passage of time, is still made largely of iron. It is still the world power that grew out of the Holy Roman Empire. But this ironlike power is weakened at the end of the age by the intrusion of a soft, claylike element—a movement calling for the people to have a bigger voice in affairs, as through trade unions, protest activities and the like. “The offspring of mankind,” the so-called common man, endeavors to have his “say” in the way things are run. This we observe today, not only in those western European countries that were once part of the Holy Roman Empire but outstandingly in the realm of the Anglo-American World Power. Here it is that work slowdowns, strikes and labor unrest have greatly weakened governmental authority that once was like “iron.” As labor fights capital, “the offspring of mankind” tries to dictate how it will work and live. Has this brought about a stable condition between the workingman and the government? God’s Word simply says: “They will not prove to be sticking together.”

Where are we, then, in the stream of time? At the conclusion of Da 2 verse 43 there is no more “image” left. We have come down to the very “toes”! We are living in that time when the development of man-made government reaches its sorry end. The climax of the ages is upon us! Daniel has told us what to expect. Yes, Christ’s kingdom that is to rule all peoples, the “stone” cut out of the “mountain” of Jehovah’s universal sovereignty, is about to hurl itself at the feet of the terrible image, toppling and demolishing the entire structure of oppressive man-rule. That will mark the “time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” But it will be followed swiftly by the most wonderful period of all human history, Christ’s 1,000-year reign. Can any true Christian sit apathetically and placidly watch events at this “time of the end” without being moved to support the Kingdom government? Now is the time to show whose side we are on, Jehovah’s or Satan’s!—Dan. 2:44, 45; 7:14; 12:1, 4.


As 1 Thessalonians 5:1 says, we need nothing to be written to us regarding the times and seasons! It is all there in God’s Word. It is just a matter of ‘digging it out.’ So let us do as Hebrews 10:35-39 suggests: “Do not, therefore, throw away your freeness of speech, which has a great reward to be paid it. For you have need of endurance, in order that, after you have done the will of God, you may receive the fulfillment of the promise. For yet ‘a very little while,’ and ‘he who is coming will arrive and will not delay.’ ‘But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,’ and, ‘if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.’ Now we are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul.” Let us have abiding, motivating faith in the Kingdom!

“The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”—Rev.

 

[Jay Ross]

PART 1

PART 2

PART 3

Let us call what you are presenting is; - it is just plain horse hockey which children play with.

Somebody who has studied their scriptures diligently, would not write such rubbish.

The five segments of the statue prophecy of Dan 2 is only concerned with nations that had/have dominion over the land of the Chaldeans/Babylon.

The four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 that are stirring up the sea of humanity are spiritual entities which people chose to manifest their primary characteristics.

You are comparing horses with asses. Not a real good start as you can only end up with a mule.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Let us call what you are presenting is; - it is just plain horse hockey which children play with.

Somebody who has studied their scriptures diligently, would not write such rubbish.

The five segments of the statue prophecy of Dan 2 is only concerned with nations that had/have dominion over the land of the Chaldeans/Babylon.

The four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 that are stirring up the sea of humanity are spiritual entities which people chose to manifest their primary characteristics.

You are comparing horses with asses. Not a real good start as you can only end up with a mule.

then basically you are calling God a liar, that's what I believe about what you say here.

 

[Jay Ross]

then basically you are calling God a liar, that's what I believe about what you say here.

No I am not calling God a liar, that is what you are doing by not reporting accurately what is contained in the scripture.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No I am not calling God a liar, that is what you are doing by not reporting accurately what is contained in the scripture.

No the scriptures clearly show that these beasts in Daniel and revelation were and are actual empires and nations.

 

[Jay Ross]

No the scriptures clearly show that these beasts in Daniel and revelation were and are actual empires and nations.

That is the SDA position that your are presenting. The scriptures do show that the sea manifests the beast with the people who rise up and inhabit the respective dominions of the beasts. However the beasts are fallen angels/fallen heavenly hosts which can be seen if one reads the scriptures carefully.

It is very easy to inhabit the dominions of the beasts and the SDA is just one such manifestation of the mind of a man , the first beast.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

That is the SDA position that your are presenting. The scriptures do show that the sea manifests the beast with the people who rise up and inhabit the respective dominions of the beasts. However the beasts are fallen angels/fallen heavenly hosts which can be seen if one reads the scriptures carefully.

It is very easy to inhabit the dominions of the beasts and the SDA is just one such manifestation of the mind of a man , the first beast.

I agree that Satan and his demons rule this world and have influenced men to gather into kingdoms and Empires, but I disagree that the beasts themselves are fallen Angels. The scriptures themselves say they are kingdoms

Certain major world powers of history appear directly in the Biblical record, and all of these, as well as other nations, have used animals as symbols of their governments. In Egypt, the serpent figured prominently, the uraeus, the sacred asp, appearing on the headdress of the Pharaohs. However, Egypt was also represented by the bull, as was Assyria. Medo-Persia used the eagle (the shields of the Medes bore the golden eagle; the Persians bore an eagle fixed to the end of a lance). Athens was designated by the owl; Rome, the eagle; Great Britain is designated by the lion; the United States, the eagle. From the most remote times China has been symbolized by the dragon. Well known is the German “two-headed eagle.”

Daniel 7:
17 “‘These huge beasts, four in number, are four kings who will stand up from the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Supreme One+ will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom+ forever, yes, forever and ever.’
23 “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings

Daniel 8:
20 “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia.+ 21 The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece;+ and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king.+ 22 As for the horn that was broken, so that four stood up instead of it,+ there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001070131/223

 

[Jay Ross]

I agree that Satan and his demons rule this world and have influenced men to gather into kingdoms and Empires, but I disagree that the beasts themselves are fallen Angels. The scriptures themselves say they are kingdoms

Dan 7:15-18: - 15 "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.'​

Verse 17 makes no mention of any kingdoms that are associated with the four beasts. The kingdom mentioned in verse 18 is a reference to all of the kingdoms under heaven that they will inherit at the end of the age of the ages.

Now what passages correctly interpreted tell us that the beasts are kingdom and not heavenly hosts.

Daniel 7:2 suggests that they are heavenly hosts by saying that the four winds of heaven were stirring up the sea of humanity where "wind' is a metaphor for "spirit", i.e. a heavenly host.

Perhaps you may like to present other scriptural evidence.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Dan 7:15-18: - 15 "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.'​

Verse 17 makes no mention of any kingdoms that are associated with the four beasts. The kingdom mentioned in verse 18 is a reference to all of the kingdoms under heaven that they will inherit at the end of the age of the ages.

Now what passages correctly interpreted tell us that the beasts are kingdom and not heavenly hosts.

Daniel 7:2 suggests that they are heavenly hosts by saying that the four winds of heaven were stirring up the sea of humanity where "wind' is a metaphor for "spirit", i.e. a heavenly host.
The
Perhaps you may like to present other scriptural evidence.

Daniel 7::15-18 says they are 4 kings. Doesn't say anything about they're angelic hosts. I also find it significant that you ignored Daniel 8: 20-22. As I said before I can understand Satan and his demons influencing mankind to gather as kingdoms, Empires but the beasts are not fallen angels Daniel 8 : 20-22 makes this clear cause these beasts are said to be kingdoms.

Daniel 8: 20-The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. The kingdom of Medo-Persia actually existed and it had no fallen angel as It's leader. It was a kingdom made up of men.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. The kingdom of Greece actually existed and it had no fallen angel as it's leader. Greece also was a kingdom made up of men.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. When Alexander the Great died his kingdom was split into 4 sections going to 4 of Alexander the Great generals.

 

[Jay Ross]

Daniel 7::15-18 says they are 4 kings. Doesn't say anything about they're angelic hosts. I also find it significant that you ignored Daniel 8: 20-22. As I said before I can understand Satan and his demons influencing mankind to gather as kingdoms, Empires but the beasts are not fallen angels Daniel 8 : 20-22 makes this clear cause these beasts are said to be kingdoms.

Daniel 8: 20-The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. The kingdom of Medo-Persia actually existed and it had no fallen angel as It's leader. It was a kingdom made up of men.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. The kingdom of Greece actually existed and it had no fallen angel as it's leader. Greece also was a kingdom made up of men.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. When Alexander the Great died his kingdom was split into 4 sections going to 4 of Alexander the Great generals.

Lets have a barney, Daniel 8 describes the events of the four generals taking over Alexandra the Greats Empire and the establishment of the manifestations of the four heads of the third beast. The Third beast does not influence the four division of Alexandra's empire until after Alexandra's death. We then read of the influence of the little horn beast. Daniel 8 records this: -

Daniel 8:8-12: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.​

Now here in this section of Daniel 8, heavenly hosts are mentioned and the little horn grew up to the host of heaven, i.e. God, and it cast down some of the hosts and the stars to the ground and tramples them. The little horn even went up against Christ and he was given an army to destroy the temple, and to cast truth down.

If the little horn is the prince that is given an army in Daniel 9:26b then the little horn has exerted its influence over one of the divisions of Alexandra's empire from around 250 BC up and until around 70 AD, a period around 320 years. If this little horn is a person then how did he live for 320 year if he is a person.

I would suggest that you are looking in all of the wrong places to justify your understanding and that you are using the primary characteristic of the first beast of Daniel 7 which is the mind of a man to back up your understanding.

Daniel 7:2 speaks of spiritual entities that are from heaven that stir up the seas. If they are spiritual entities from heaven they are also heavenly hosts originally from heaven.

No matter how many times you repeat your understanding which is also the SDA understanding, it does not make what you write true.