Why The Two Legs Of Daniel 2 Represent Only Western Rome

[Bible_Gazer]

Not what this "anointing" means. The word used for "holy" signifies an object, not a person. I believe it will have a two part fulfillment probably occurring right around the same time. When Israel anoints Jesus as Messiah and King and when the place He will rule from in the millennial temple is anointed as cleansed. Not fulfilled! So in my opinion, not proper exegesis at all, just struggling to fit the wrong parts into the wrong puzzle so you can justify an errant interpretation of scripture.

When you read Rev.21-22 it tells of God and Jesus and the Holy city(the bride) come down after the 1,000 years.
All the grand glory comes down after it is finished or done.
It says God and Jesus are the temple. Rev.21:22
God already anointed Jesus, it wouldn't be by Israel anyway, they are the lesser.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Where do you see "iron" in the description of Babylon? It's not in Rev. 17 or 18 and that is the only context Babylon can be associated with.

Daniel 7 the last beast is the iron kingdom Rome.
this is the last beast before God sets up his kingdom.
Rev.17 there has to be iron in it.
What is the definition of Babylon or symbol use in Rev. ? it might just fit what's going on .

I don't think natural Babylon is coming back. Isa.13:19-22

 

[Trekson]

Daniel 7 the last beast is the iron kingdom Rome.
this is the last beast before God sets up his kingdom.
Rev.17 there has to be iron in it.
What is the definition of Babylon or symbol use in Rev. ? it might just fit what's going on .

I don't think natural Babylon is coming back. Isa.13:19-22

I see your confusion, Babylon and the "beast" are not the same thing. The beast w/ 10 horns "hates" the whore. Rev. 17:16. The beast will eventually destroy, the whore (USA), Rev. 18. Read Rev. 18:11, things could change but as of this moment, the USA is the largest importer of the world's goods.

 

[Trekson]

When you read Rev.21-22 it tells of God and Jesus and the Holy city(the bride) come down after the 1,000 years.
All the grand glory comes down after it is finished or done.
It says God and Jesus are the temple. Rev.21:22 Eventually that will become a reality but not for a 1000 yrs. plus.
God already anointed Jesus, it wouldn't be by Israel anyway, they are the lesser.

Well you're right, it won't be a nation. It will be the equivalent of a high priest or a significant prophet as exampled in the OT. I'm thinking it could either be David, Elijah or someone who fits the bill among the 144,000.

 

[bbyrd009]

1. Daniel plainly tells us the "legs of iron" are representative of a singular kingdom (Daniel 2:40-41) - namely the pagan Roman Empire - not a plurality of two kingdoms.

or a great analogy of someone in the world, not even seeking Christ, not interested in hating their life, etc

2. The fourth kingdom is said to "be divided".

a great analogy of someone who has been introduced to the Spirit, but still has to eat, has "a foot in both worlds," etc

 

[Jay Ross]

What part of "sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John" do you not understand? The book of Revelation is given in signs and symbols, and Babylon is a SYMBOL. As stated earlier, your beliefs are so unBiblical and so bizarre that I'll not any further discuss them with you, lest I become a party to your folly.

It is your opinion that what I have posted is unbiblical and bizarre, but your "biblical" proof to that end has not been presented to justify your claim.

What you have presented is either, yours or another person's interpretational opinion as to how the prophecies should be understood. Your posted opinion does not make what you post right and at your suggestion of agreeing to disagree on the understanding of the End Time prophecies, you still insist that your understanding opinion is the only right opinion to hold. I was happy to leave it there but you keep coming back with this false argument to bolster your position but without any proof.

None of our English translations are infallible and each contain errors within their pages. I sit in church and listen to preachers who want their congregations to believe that they have great wisdom concerning the bible and God but the reality is that their understanding and relationship with God is just as flawed as everyone else's relationship is with God, that sit on the pews listening to them, and they too, also have to work on their relationship with God, just like every one else.

Both of our understandings on the end times are flawed to some degree and it will not be until time catches up with our understanding of the future that the nearness of our understanding to the truth will be revealed. It is my understanding that Armageddon will occur in around 25 years time, give or take a year or two to account for any chronological errors, and I have to wait until then, if I am still alive, to have confirmed whether or not my understanding was within the ball park of understanding of being true. Your understanding will also be judged the same way by the unfolding events in the future.

So can we wait and allow God to reveal His prophecies as they unfold as to who might have the right understanding or not.

Shalom

 

[Phoneman777]

When you mentioned *Jesuit futurists*, you were referring primarily to Manuel Lacunza, who used the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra when he wrote The Coming of the Messiah in Majesty and Glory.

Actually, when I say "Jesuit Futurists", what I mean is people who expound the idea of Futurism which was unknown to the world until the 16th century when Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera twisted Scripture to produce it.

The ECF never wrote about it.
The early church at large never wrote about it.
The church of the Dark Ages never wrote about it.
The Protestant Reformers never wrote about it - they taught Protestant Historicism.

When Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera first announced it, the Reformers condemned it with the same arguments which I condemn it.

Anyone who talks about a "last seven years of tribulation Antichrist" and a "gap in Daniel's 70 Weeks" is just rehashing a 500 year old Jesuit error.

 

[Enoch111]

Anyone who talks about a "last seven years of tribulation Antichrist" and a "gap in Daniel's 70 Weeks" is just rehashing a 500 year old Jesuit error.

That's your problem. Because you think it is a Jesuit error you refuse to give it serious consideration. But unless you can prove that the Great Tribulation (a one-time event) is already past, and all the heavenly bodies have been shaken -- moved out of their places -- along with all the mountains and islands, you don't have a leg to stand on.

REVELATION 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[Phoneman777]

Not what this "anointing" means. The word used for "holy" signifies an object, not a person. I believe it will have a two part fulfillment probably occurring right around the same time. When Israel anoints Jesus as Messiah and King and when the place He will rule from in the millennial temple is anointed as cleansed. Not fulfilled! So in my opinion, not proper exegesis at all, just struggling to fit the wrong parts into the wrong puzzle so you can justify an errant interpretation of scripture.

The focus of the prophecy is not an "object", it is the Savior, and it is He that is "Most Holy", moreso than that which is made with hands.

 

[Phoneman777]

It is your opinion that what I have posted is unbiblical and bizarre, but your "biblical" proof to that end has not been presented to justify your claim.

What you have presented is either, yours or another person's interpretational opinion as to how the prophecies should be understood. Your posted opinion does not make what you post right and at your suggestion of agreeing to disagree on the understanding of the End Time prophecies, you still insist that your understanding opinion is the only right opinion to hold. I was happy to leave it there but you keep coming back with this false argument to bolster your position but without any proof.

None of our English translations are infallible and each contain errors within their pages. I sit in church and listen to preachers who want their congregations to believe that they have great wisdom concerning the bible and God but the reality is that their understanding and relationship with God is just as flawed as everyone else's relationship is with God, that sit on the pews listening to them, and they too, also have to work on their relationship with God, just like every one else.

Both of our understandings on the end times are flawed to some degree and it will not be until time catches up with our understanding of the future that the nearness of our understanding to the truth will be revealed. It is my understanding that Armageddon will occur in around 25 years time, give or take a year or two to account for any chronological errors, and I have to wait until then, if I am still alive, to have confirmed whether or not my understanding was within the ball park of understanding of being true. Your understanding will also be judged the same way by the unfolding events in the future.

So can we wait and allow God to reveal His prophecies as they unfold as to who might have the right understanding or not.

Shalom

Thanks for sharing

 

[Phoneman777]

That's your problem. Because you think it is a Jesuit error you refuse to give it serious consideration. But unless you can prove that the Great Tribulation (a one-time event) is already past, and all the heavenly bodies have been shaken -- moved out of their places -- along with all the mountains and islands, you don't have a leg to stand on.

REVELATION 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Refuse to give it consideration? Brother, I know ALL ABOUT Jesuit Futurism - I used to believe it! I'm very familiar with the nuances of the idea.

It is YOU who refuse to consider the criticism of it.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm very familiar with the nuances of the idea.

You've dodged the real issue.

Prove to us that all the heavenly bodies and the mountains and islands have already been shaken (moved out of their places as shown in Revelation 6:12-14), and that we are now living in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

And if you can't do that (which should be obvious) then your whole eschatology falls apart like a house of cards.

 

[Trekson]

The ECF never wrote about it.
The early church at large never wrote about it.
The church of the Dark Ages never wrote about it.
The Protestant Reformers never wrote about it - they taught Protestant Historicism.

That's not a true statement at all. Here are some futurist teachings from some of the early church fathers:
I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself" (Chapter xvi)

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millenium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

 

[Trekson]

The focus of the prophecy is not an "object", it is the Savior, and it is He that is "Most Holy", moreso than that which is made with hands.

I agree that Jesus can be considered that, however, if it was just a person Daniel had in mind, a different word would have been used. I see no reason that when the time comes it can't be both.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

That's your problem. Because you think it is a Jesuit error you refuse to give it serious consideration. But unless you can prove that the Great Tribulation (a one-time event) is already past, and all the heavenly bodies have been shaken -- moved out of their places -- along with all the mountains and islands, you don't have a leg to stand on.

REVELATION 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Have you ever compare these scriptures with Rev. 12
Who was the sun, the stars, the moon ?
What will happens with the woman when she goes into the wilderness ?
Does she still have the sun or did it go into darkness to be hid ?

Just pointing out that here in Rev. 12 its not talking about the literal heavenly sky above us.
Has mountain and island every been used as a certain group of people ?
What happens to the heavenly place she was in ?

Just assuming you believe its the natural sun, moon and mountains and island.

 

[Enoch111]

Just pointing out that here in Rev. 12 its not talking about the literal heavenly sky above us.

Revelation 12 presents a symbolic woman with twelve stars etc. which is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 6.

The Lord Jesus Christ predicted the literal shaking of the heavens and the earth in order displace and remove all the heavenly bodies from their places. That is yet future, and it is also tied into the Great Tribulation and the Abomination of Desolation. So let's look at the Scriptures.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isa 13:9,10)

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand...The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: (Joel 2:1,10)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:(Mt 24:21,29)

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Mk 13:24,25)

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Lk 21:25,26)

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)

So anyone who claims that the prophecies regarding the Abomination of Desolation, the Great Tribulation, and the cataclysmic cosmic events of the day of the Lord were fulfilled in and around 70 AD is either (a) self-deceived or (b) attempting to deceive others.

We have recently been subject to a whole lot of nonsense about blood moons. But as we can see the moon will only become as blood and cease to shine when all of this takes place.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Revelation 12 presents a symbolic woman with twelve stars etc. which is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 6.

The Lord Jesus Christ predicted the literal shaking of the heavens and the earth in order displace and remove all the heavenly bodies from their places. That is yet future, and it is also tied into the Great Tribulation and the Abomination of Desolation. So let's look at the Scriptures.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isa 13:9,10)

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand...The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: (Joel 2:1,10)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:(Mt 24:21,29)

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Mk 13:24,25)

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Lk 21:25,26)

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)

So anyone who claims that the prophecies regarding the Abomination of Desolation, the Great Tribulation, and the cataclysmic cosmic events of the day of the Lord were fulfilled in and around 70 AD is either (a) self-deceived or (b) attempting to deceive others.

We have recently been subject to a whole lot of nonsense about blood moons. But as we can see the moon will only become as blood and cease to shine when all of this takes place.​

The cosmic thing I don't see it God rearranging the heavenly sky for us. I think is symbolic
Rev. 6:13 It says the stars fell upon the earth. So if that is real then there will be nothing left.
The sun is a star and our sun is 109 time bigger than the earth.
Now to have more than one sun fall unto the earth ??????
So I know that isn't literal, neither is the others.
​

Well I do see Daniel 70 is completed.
I do see more great tribulation coming.
I do think Matt.24 is mostly all history. It was for the Apostles to know what was coming on Jerusalem and the church.
I do believe Revelation is written after the destruction of Jerusalem.
Rome was the Iron beast that destroyed Jerusalem.
It was an Iron beast that trouble the church also during the dark ages.
It will be an Iron beast in our time causing more trouble on the church and Israel.

 

[Enoch111]

The cosmic thing I don't see it God rearranging the heavenly sky for us.

What you are telling us is that you don't really believe God. Good luck with that!

The strange thing is that statement of yours was written in spite of having all the relevant Scriptures placed before you. I would call that wilful ignorance.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

What you are telling us is that you don't really believe God. Good luck with that!

The strange thing is that statement of yours was written in spite of having all the relevant Scriptures placed before you. I would call that wilful ignorance.

So then you are saying you believe there is going to be some natural suns hit the earth ?
Wow !

Oh I believe in God and his words, in
Revelation 1:1 (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

but you don't think in Rev.12 a woman is standing on the moon and clothed with the sun like it says.

 

[Phoneman777]

You've dodged the real issue.

Prove to us that all the heavenly bodies and the mountains and islands have already been shaken (moved out of their places as shown in Revelation 6:12-14), and that we are now living in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

And if you can't do that (which should be obvious) then your whole eschatology falls apart like a house of cards.

I can't prove that because we are not yet living in the New Heavens. Historicism doesn't teach that.