Why The Two Legs Of Daniel 2 Represent Only Western Rome

[Phoneman777]

Rarely. And when an hour or a day is used metaphorically, the context gives us the clue

But, don't you agree that the 70 Weeks are symbolic, though the actual Hebrew plainly and literally states "70 weeks" with no intimation of any symbolism?

 

[Phoneman777]

So I have been taught that the 7 heads on the beast in Rev. 13 represented different Kingdoms.
And that the metallic man in Daniel represented different Kingdoms. These Kingdom had somewhat powers over the Jews.
So can we use Daniel to figure out at least 5 kingdoms of the Beast in Rev..
Then it would leave us 2 to figure out.
This might be history before Babylon or some might think 2 in the future ?

What is your thoughts on this ?

The seven heads of Revelation 17 are not revealed explicilty in Scripture, so there is room for interpretation - however, what is revealed by many irrefutable Biblical proofs is that the Antichrist, the Beast, the Little Horn, the King of the North, the Woman riding the Beast, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, etc., are all descriptions of the office of the Roman catholic papacy - the union of the catholic church and the secular state - an eschatological interpretation known as "Protestant Historicism" that dominated the whole of Protestantism for over 300 years from the time of Luther, but now is all but forgotten by people today who think sleeping giants are tame because they at the moment aren't grinding men's bones to make their bread - but the blood of millions of God's faithful who were condemned to die by papal authorities for rejecting catholic dogma cries out continually under the altar of God.

Before attempting to discern what the 7 heads mean, we must establish at what time in Earth's history does this vision of John in Revelation 17 depict. The key is found in Revelation 17:1 - the "judgment of the great whore", which can only be near or at the end of time, long after John is dead and buried.

Rejecting Jesuit Futurism for the same Biblical reasons the Great Protestant Reformers did, let's use Protestant Historicism as the basis for interpretation. With the clearly established pattern found in Daniel 2 - upon which all subsequent prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are interpreted - and seeking an interpretation of Revelation 17 that incorporates all the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, we conclude that the first four heads are:

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome

The prophecies go on to reveal that Rome would become divided into 10 Horns, which can only be the 10 Barbarian nations which stood after the dust of the fallen Roman Empire settled - and a "Little Horn" which would arise among them and uproot "3 of the first horns". This "Little Horn" is the papacy which arose among the 10 nations and destroyed the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths because these nations refused to acknowledge the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome over both church and state. Once eradicated, the wicked papacy stood for the prophesied period of time - 1,260 years - from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. as the absolute power over the church and secular kingdoms and persecuted the saints, changed God's times and laws, magnified itself to heaven, spoke blasphemously, etc. and fulfilled all the identifying marks of the Antichrist in prophecy, as history fully attests. In 1798, she received a "deadly wound" when Napoleon's general Berthier arrested the pope and abolished papal rule. "Five are fallen".

5) Papacy

John says of the 7 heads that they are "...7 kings. Five are fallen, and one is, and one is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not (the papacy), which is the eighth..." rounds out the prophecy. So, what is the 6th head that "is" at the time of the judgment of the great whore? The Bible speaks of the "beast from the bottomless pit" in Revelation 11 which according to the prophetic timeline happened around the end of the 18th century when the papal beast was receiving its deadly wound. This ascending beast is representative of the occult secret societies which were responsible for unleashing upon the Earth the "age of reason", atheism, secular humanism, Darwinian evolution, etc., during the 19th century. Communism, Mormonism, JWs, many false prophets like Southcott, Casey, Russell, Smith, Blavatsky, Bessant, as well many other societies were born out of this era and began to set up the final end time stage for when the papal wound would be fully healed and bring about the time soon when "all the world wondered after the beast".

6) Beast from the bottomless pit: non-religio-political powers controlled by the papacy ("is not, yet is") because the same secret societies which the papacy controlled had the papacy abolished in order to cleanse from her midst papal leaders who were being influenced by the Protestant Reformation - with the deadly wound inflicted, these occult Luciferian societies are now running things behind the scenes in order to continue the papal agenda while the papal wound is yet being healed, and is almost completely healed.

Only one beast in Revelation remains. When the First Beast of Revelation 13 (the papacy) fell, the Second Beast of Revelation 13 was rising: the United States of America. It starts out like a Lamb, but "spake as a dragon" and eventually forms an "image to the First Beast, whose deadly wound was healed". When the United States will unite the Protestant churches with the state, she will have formed this image to the first beast, the union of the catholic church and the secular state. This is not yet come, but is coming soon, for even now the "moral majority" of the "religious right" are clamoring for "legislated morality" by means of laws meant to "get the nation back to God".

7) Image to the First Beast by means of the dragon tongue Second Beast

The Eight that "is of the seven" is the final NWO confederacy in which the papal wound will have fully healed and the papacy will sit atop the New World Order and unleash "Jacob's Time Of Trouble" against God's commandment keeping people who "keep the commandments of God, have the testimony of Jesus Christ, and have the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12).

A comprehensive study on all this can be found by checking out the Total Onslaught series by Prof. Dr. Walter J. Veith, as well as many other bona fide Protestant sources.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

The seven heads of Revelation 17 are not revealed explicilty in Scripture, so there is room for interpretation - however, what is revealed by many irrefutable Biblical proofs is that the Antichrist, the Beast, the Little Horn, the King of the North, the Woman riding the Beast, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, etc., are all descriptions of the office of the Roman catholic papacy - the union of the catholic church and the secular state - an eschatological interpretation known as "Protestant Historicism" that dominated the whole of Protestantism for over 300 years from the time of Luther, but now is all but forgotten by people today who think sleeping giants are tame because they at the moment aren't grinding men's bones to make their bread - but the blood of millions of God's faithful who were condemned to die by papal authorities for rejecting catholic dogma cries out continually under the altar of God.

Before attempting to discern what the 7 heads mean, we must establish at what time in Earth's history does this vision of John in Revelation 17 depict. The key is found in Revelation 17:1 - the "judgment of the great whore", which can only be near or at the end of time, long after John is dead and buried.

Rejecting Jesuit Futurism for the same Biblical reasons the Great Protestant Reformers did, let's use Protestant Historicism as the basis for interpretation. With the clearly established pattern found in Daniel 2 - upon which all subsequent prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are interpreted - and seeking an interpretation of Revelation 17 that incorporates all the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, we conclude that the first four heads are:

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome

The prophecies go on to reveal that Rome would become divided into 10 Horns, which can only be the 10 Barbarian nations which stood after the dust of the fallen Roman Empire settled - and a "Little Horn" which would arise among them and uproot "3 of the first horns". This "Little Horn" is the papacy which arose among the 10 nations and destroyed the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths because these nations refused to acknowledge the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome over both church and state. Once eradicated, the wicked papacy stood for the prophesied period of time - 1,260 years - from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. as the absolute power over the church and secular kingdoms and persecuted the saints, changed God's times and laws, magnified itself to heaven, spoke blasphemously, etc. and fulfilled all the identifying marks of the Antichrist in prophecy, as history fully attests. In 1798, she received a "deadly wound" when Napoleon's general Berthier arrested the pope and abolished papal rule. "Five are fallen".

5) Papacy

John says of the 7 heads that they are "...7 kings. Five are fallen, and one is, and one is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not (the papacy), which is the eighth..." rounds out the prophecy. So, what is the 6th head that "is" at the time of the judgment of the great whore? The Bible speaks of the "beast from the bottomless pit" in Revelation 11 which according to the prophetic timeline happened around the end of the 18th century when the papal beast was receiving its deadly wound. This ascending beast is representative of the occult secret societies which were responsible for unleashing upon the Earth the "age of reason", atheism, secular humanism, Darwinian evolution, etc., during the 19th century. Communism, Mormonism, JWs, many false prophets like Southcott, Casey, Russell, Smith, Blavatsky, Bessant, as well many other societies were born out of this era and began to set up the final end time stage for when the papal wound would be fully healed and bring about the time soon when "all the world wondered after the beast".

6) Beast from the bottomless pit: non-religio-political powers controlled by the papacy ("is not, yet is") because the same secret societies which the papacy controlled had the papacy abolished in order to cleanse from her midst papal leaders who were being influenced by the Protestant Reformation - with the deadly wound inflicted, these occult Luciferian societies are now running things behind the scenes in order to continue the papal agenda while the papal wound is yet being healed, and is almost completely healed.

Only one beast in Revelation remains. When the First Beast of Revelation 13 (the papacy) fell, the Second Beast of Revelation 13 was rising: the United States of America. It starts out like a Lamb, but "spake as a dragon" and eventually forms an "image to the First Beast, whose deadly wound was healed". When the United States will unite the Protestant churches with the state, she will have formed this image to the first beast, the union of the catholic church and the secular state. This is not yet come, but is coming soon, for even now the "moral majority" of the "religious right" are clamoring for "legislated morality" by means of laws meant to "get the nation back to God".

7) Image to the First Beast by means of the dragon tongue Second Beast

The Eight that "is of the seven" is the final NWO confederacy in which the papal wound will have fully healed and the papacy will sit atop the New World Order and unleash "Jacob's Time Of Trouble" against God's commandment keeping people who "keep the commandments of God, have the testimony of Jesus Christ, and have the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12).

A comprehensive study on all this can be found by checking out the Total Onslaught series by Prof. Dr. Walter J. Veith, as well as many other bona fide Protestant sources.

I see parts of what you have here.
This what I have received about the 7 Kingdoms
These Kingdoms had ruled over God's people in the past.
Rev.17
5 are fallen:
1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Medo-Persia
5. Greece

6. Rome - Pagan - one is in John's day
7. Holy Roman Empire - Papal rules 1,260 years- wounded as 1798

The 8th is not a head on the beast, John only saw 7 heads.
so the 8th is said to be one of the 7, which would the last one that was, the Holy Papal Roman Empire.
Rev. 13 says the first beast before the 2nd got wounded, not dead but gotten weak, damaged, lost power.

I heard about the USA being one, I just don't see any Iron in it or a part of the 4th beast in Dan.7.
Dan.7 beast is the last beast the rules over God's people, then God sets up his Kingdom after this
and never to fall.

I think their is only one beast to rise in our time for the purpose God want to put pressure
on Israel one more time. Ezek 38-39 God does it for his name sake.
God does cause the ten kings to give power unto the beast which the woman rider has control.
God put Pharaoh on the throne for a reason. Same with some other kings.
God still rules in the Kingdom of men.

 

[Jay Ross]

1. Daniel plainly tells us the "legs of iron" are representative of a singular kingdom (Daniel 2:40-41) - namely the pagan Roman Empire - not a plurality of two kingdoms.

2. The fourth kingdom is said to "be divided". It is illogical to acknowledge this kingdom is depicted as two "legs of iron" and yet claim that the two legs simultaneously represent two kingdoms - East and West Rome. The only division Daniel speaks of here is the division of the two legs (Roman Empire) into Ten Toes (the ten barbarian divisions that arose after Rome fell).

3. The focus of prophecy is Christ and His Christians, the vast majority of which were in Western Rome.

4. The movement of unfolding prophecy is from East to West, starting at Babylon. A shift in movement from Western Rome back East to Byzantine as "the right leg of the image" is an abrupt interruption in the pattern.

5. The parallel prophecies of Daniel and Revelation continue to treat the empire which follows Greece as a singular kingdom.

6. The two legs are there only to maintain the symmetry of the image - a one-legged image would appear as a disturbing, asinine, asymmetrical freak show.

After the Fourth Kingdom, Pagan Rome, fell in 476 A.D., no fifth empire came up - it was divided into ten barbarian kingdoms, among which the "Little Horn" Papacy arose and uprooted three that refused to acknowledge the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, and went on to reign for the predicted 1,260 years from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and fulfill all the identifying marks in prophecy as Antichrist.

So when you could not convince me that you were wrong in another thread because I informed you that your understanding of Daniel 2 and 7 could not be understood as descriptions of the same entities, you have now started a new thread where all of your friends have chipped in to confirm that your above post is right.

The reformation fathers use scripture to demonise the RCC to drive a wedge between the reformers and the RCC. Sadly the RCC also responded in a similar manner.

In the other thread, I had asked what biblical cultic sect did you belong to, and you refused to respond. From the friends that have now rallied around you and supported you, it seems that you have close ties with the SDA's. If that is the case then that explains your confusion and your hatred of the RCC and the Papacy.

First off, in Daniel 2 God reveals to King Neb what was going to happen to his kingdom of Babylon, in the land of the Chaldeans and what the future would hold for Babylon. From scripture we can confirm what people groups/nations/kingdoms/empires that will have dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans which are represented as the first three segments of the statue as Babylon, the head, the Medes/Persian Empire, the chest, which is then followed by the Grecian Empire(s) the belly and the thighs. At this point in time both Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50 point out that the land of the Chaldeans will be made desolate and be devastated such that no people will live in the land for a period of around 2,000 years.

Now Revelation 16:17-18 tells us that after the turmoil of WW1 that Babylon will be remembered once more and a nations ill be re-established n the Land of the Chaldean's, that had been the Land of Babylon. The nation that was formed in the Land of the Chaldean's/ Babylon in 1926? was Iraq and Iraq rose up and was then invaded by the Coalition of the Willing Empire lead by the King of the North, i.e. the President of the USA.

The Statue prophecy also informs us that during the time of the kings that formed the Coalition of the Willing that God will form His Everlasting Kingdom on the earth and that the Foundation Stone with be the truth, that Jesus is the Messiah, who is also the Son of man and the Son of God.

AT PRESENT we are waiting for God to establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the face of the earth.

When we consider Daniel 7 in the first couple of verses, were are informed that four spiritual entities from heaven, which are called beasts later in the chapter, who in reality are four fallen demonic and wicked heavenly hosts, i.e. angels who rebelled with Satan against God, will stir up the sea of humanity, i.e. the people who live on the earth, such that the four respective beasts will become manifested in the people who fall under the respective dominions of the four beasts and exhibit the dominate characteristic of each of the beasts.

We are also told in Daniel 7 that there is a fifth beast, the little horn, a wicked fallen demonic heavenly host, that will work with the four beast and that together they will speak out great things against God. This same beast, the little horn, is also written about in Daniel 8 and is given an army to go up against heaven and Jerusalem.

The five beasts some 2,500 years after Daniel wrote about them will be Judged in Heaven as Isaiah 24:21-22 tells us and will then be cast down to the earth at the same time as the Kings of the earth are judged on the earth, and then both the judged heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth and their armies will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit which will be locked for a period of 1,000 years so that they can have no direct influence over the peoples of the earth.

It is just after the heavenly judgement of the beasts in heaven that the Son of Man is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him.

Because the four beasts have influence over the peoples of the earth who chose to live within the respective dominions of the four beasts, it has been possible from time to time to discern the influence of the respective beasts in our history at different points in our history.

Some geezers, like Dave tell us that there are no "gaps" in prophecy, and that is true as the "gaps" in the prophecies are there for us to discern if we look carefully at the original text source for our English Translations.

Daniel 9:26b tells us that

Dan 9:26b
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.​

and in the last line above, "till the end of the wars" tells us that the city will be desolated for a period of around 2,000 years, because the war being spoken of in this verse is the war still presently raging in heaven.

Now I have not attempted to identify the people groups/nations/kingdom/empires that have chosen to live within the respective dominions of the four beasts because the list of these manifestation occurring in the sea of humanity is too long and difficult to be definitive as to who they are. However, the influence of the beasts has ebbed and flowed over the last 2,500 or so years and it is possible to see which present nations are manifesting the respective beasts by the characteristic of the beast that they are manifesting.

The OP premise for this thread is in error.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

But, don't you agree that the 70 Weeks are symbolic, though the actual Hebrew plainly and literally states "70 weeks" with no intimation of any symbolism?

The seventy weeks CANNOT be symbolic since they are given to show us that God has a perfect plan for Israel and the world, and that one day there will be everlasting righteousness on earth.

Also specific historic events are mentioned to make that perfectly clear. The proclamation of Cyrus is recorded twice the the Bible, and the crucifixion of Christ is the supreme event of the Gospels (along with His resurrection).

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up. (2 Chron 36:22,23)

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem. (Ezra 1:1-4)

 

[Phoneman777]

Dan. 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Most of Titus's army wasn't Roman, they were conscripted soldiers from surrounding nations already conquered by Rome, so it is more likely a future ten nation confederacy will consist of the middle east nations, ie. the eastern empire.

Cannot understand how you Jesuit Futurists can just callously sweep aside the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. and just pretend it never happened so that you can keep what may or may not be a reconstructed temple in Jerusalem as pertinent to end time prophecy. It can never be. the "temple of God" is the church, over which the Antichrist power in Rome sits.

 

[Phoneman777]

So when you could not convince me that you were wrong in another thread because I informed you that your understanding of Daniel 2 and 7 could not be understood as descriptions of the same entities, you have now started a new thread where all of your friends have chipped in to confirm that your above post is right.

My motivation for this thread has nothing to do with any failure to convince you of anything. Has to do with spreading the truth about end time prophecy, of which you choose to be willfully ignorant, which is OK because I respect your right as a person accountable to God alone to believe what you wish.

The reformation fathers use scripture to demonise the RCC to drive a wedge between the reformers and the RCC.

"Demonize"? Is that what you call it when the light of God's Word leads men to renounce a system that for over ONE THOUSAND YEARS kept the bulk of Christianity in almost total darkness and despair? It's like saying NOLA law enforcement "demonized" that racist Mark Essex with a barrage of .50 cal bullets when he climbed to the top of the Howard Johnsons and started sniping white people.

In the other thread, I had asked what biblical cultic sect did you belong to, and you refused to respond. From the friends that have now rallied around you and supported you, it seems that you have close ties with the SDA's. If that is the case then that explains your confusion and your hatred of the RCC and the Papacy.

While you're obsessed with my affiliations, I could care less to what or who you are affiliated, just on what basis do you support your ideas, which basis I've shown to be of no substance by my Historicist interpretation of Scripture which destroys your Jesuit ideas.

Now Revelation 16:17-18 tells us that after the turmoil of WW1 that Babylon will be remembered once more and a nations ill be re-established n the Land of the Chaldean's, that had been the Land of Babylon.

According to A Prophecy About Babylon Confirms the Accuracy of the Bible

"But today, Babylon is still an empty city. In times of peace tourists can go see the partially rebuilt ruins of Babylon that have remained empty for almost 2,000 years. The city is exactly like Isaiah predicted: “It will never be inhabited, nor will it be settled from generation to generation” (Isaiah 13:20).​

The word "Babylon" in the book of Revelation is a symbol - just like the rest of the book, according to Revelation 1:1, right?

The Statue prophecy also informs us that during the time of the kings that formed the Coalition of the Willing that God will form His Everlasting Kingdom on the earth and that the Foundation Stone with be the truth, that Jesus is the Messiah, who is also the Son of man and the Son of God.

What "coalition of the willing"? Daniel speaks only about "in the days of those kings" (the nations which came out of the fallen Roman Empire, namely the European) shall the Son of Man set up a kingdom." We are right on schedule, prophetically speaking.

When we consider Daniel 7 in the first couple of verses, were are informed that four spiritual entities from heaven, which are called beasts later in the chapter, who in reality are four fallen demonic and wicked heavenly hosts...

Uh, I'm pretty sure the angel told Daniel those four beasts are "four kingdoms".

I just don't have the time or energy to continue picking apart the rest of this ridiculous post, so let's agree to disagree, OK? Thanks

 

[Jay Ross]

My motivation for this thread has nothing to do with any failure to convince you of anything. It has to do with spreading the truth about end time prophecy, of which you choose to be willfully ignorant, which is OK because I respect your right as a person accountable to God alone to believe what you wish.
"Demonize"? Is that what you call it when the light of God's Word leads men to renounce a system that for over ONE THOUSAND YEARS kept the bulk of Christianity in almost total darkness and despair? It's like saying NOLA law enforcement "demonized" that racist Mark Essex with a barrage of .50 cal bullets when he climbed to the top of the Howard Johnsons and started sniping white people.
While you're obsessed with my affiliations, I could care less to what or who you are affiliated, just on what basis do you support your ideas, which basis I've shown to be of no substance by my Historicist interpretation of Scripture which destroys your Jesuit ideas.
According to A Prophecy About Babylon Confirms the Accuracy of the Bible

"But today, Babylon is still an empty city. In times of peace tourists can go see the partially rebuilt ruins of Babylon that have remained empty for almost 2,000 years. The city is exactly like Isaiah predicted: “It will never be inhabited, nor will it be settled from generation to generation” (Isaiah 13:20).​

The word "Babylon" in the book of Revelation is a symbol - just like the rest of the book, according to Revelation 1:1, right?
What "coalition of the willing"? Daniel speaks only about "in the days of those kings" (the nations which came out of the fallen Roman Empire, namely the European) shall the Son of Man set up a kingdom." We are right on schedule, prophetically speaking.
Uh, I'm pretty sure the angel told Daniel those four beasts are "four kingdoms".

I just don't have the time or energy to continue picking apart the rest of this ridiculous post, so let's agree to disagree, OK? Thanks

I have no US of A rights which you hold dear to your heart.

Within God's understanding we have a responsibility to speak the truth, we have the responsibility to either respond to God's Love towards us individually or to reject outright God's Love.

Now if you will not answer my question of you about your religious affiliations, then I can only assume that you are an SDA adherent or similar i.e. United Church of God, because of your expressed understanding of who the beasts are and the support you have received in this thread from known SDA members on this forum.

Also, Isaiah 13:20 if understood within the context that it was originally written, speaks of a time period when Babylon would be devastated and desolated for a period of two ages, i.e. a little longer than 2,000 years. The English translation that you are relying on is expressing a context that was not originally in the Hebrew text of Isaiah and this contextual understanding is contrary to God's prophecy through Isaiah.

The issue is in the understanding of H:5331 which has the short meaning of "goal." In other words, the Goal of God was for Babylon and that goal was for a period of time, namely around 2,000 years, that Babylon would not be inhabited until it was remembered once more in 1926 when a kingdom, namely Iraq, was established over the area of Babylon, i.e. the land of the Chaldeans, by the victors over Turkey's empire at that time, i.e. after WW1. What also happened after WW1, was that Jerusalem was also partitioned into three administrative districts, just like Revelation 16:17-21 also tells us.

But your rebuttal argument is that my post was ridiculous and that you do not have the time to pick my post apart. Where you attempted to offer a rebuttal apology against my post you attempted to do so with "evidence" outside of the time period that I had written about. In other words you simply presented a false argument to justify your position.

As you have said, people have a right to believe what they want but to then claim that your understanding is the "truth" is actually stretching the truth quite a bit without the actual proof that it is. Your claim of truth is based on an interpretational opinion that other people have also sadly accepted.

Yes we perhaps should agree to disagree, but please do not claim to be wise concerning this topic.

Shalom

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Do think it was the Roman Iron beast that destroy Jerusalem in 70AD just as Jesus was talking about it would happened in Matt.24. about 40 years later.

Only one Babylon in Rev. which is the revive Rome in Rev.17, 18 the false religious woman and daughters.
So for it to come into remembrance it must be a later date in the future when you read in Rev.16
The 7th vial is the last plaque of the wrath of God, so it has to be down at the near end of the millennium. Rev.15:1
Gog and Magog at that time must be a resemblance to Babylon a 1,000 years apart.

 

[Trekson]

Cannot understand how you Jesuit Futurists can just callously sweep aside the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. and just pretend it never happened so that you can keep what may or may not be a reconstructed temple in Jerusalem as pertinent to end time prophecy. It can never be. the "temple of God" is the church, over which the Antichrist power in Rome sits.

It's simple really, if a prophecy isn't 100% fulfilled, it's not fulfilled. There are six parts of Dan. 9:24 that are prophesied to occur. Of the six only two could be considered fulfilled without resorting to symbolic shenanigans. 2 out of 6 = no fulfillment!

 

[Trekson]

Do think it was the Roman Iron beast that destroy Jerusalem in 70AD just as Jesus was talking about it would happened in Matt.24. about 40 years later.

Only one Babylon in Rev. which is the revive Rome in Rev.17, 18 the false religious woman and daughters.
So for it to come into remembrance it must be a later date in the future when you read in Rev.16
The 7th vial is the last plaque of the wrath of God, so it has to be down at the near end of the millennium. Rev.15:1
Gog and Magog at that time must be a resemblance to Babylon a 1,000 years apart.

I don't think scripture supports that theory at all. I think the USA will become the Babylon of Rev. 17 & 18.

 

[Enoch111]

Cannot understand how you Jesuit Futurists can just callously sweep aside the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. and just pretend it never happened...

I like that. Guilt by association. *Jesuit futurists*. It so happens that the Jesuit who could see prophecies as being in the future was actually correct.

Getting back to the destruction of the temple 70 AD, no one sweeps it aside, but it is put in its proper context. Because that is according to Christ.

I. The Lord Himself predicted the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down...
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down...
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh...24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Mt 24:1,2; Mk 13:1,2; Lk 21:20,24)

II. AFTER THAT the Lord Himself predicted that another temple would be built, and the Abomination of Desolation would be set up within the Holy Place -- according to the prophecy of Daniel.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:... 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened...
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Mt 24:15,21,22,29)

The future temple, the Abomination of Desolation, the Great Tribulation, and the Cataclysmic Cosmic Events cannot be separated from each other. And since the sun, moon, and stars are still in their proper places, none of this has happened as yet. Therefore it was not any Jesuit who was a futurist, but Christ Himself.

Now that you know the truth, you need to go back to square one and thoroughly revise your understanding of Bible prophecies.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Rev.12 are those literal sun ,moon and stars
Maybe Matt 24 are not

 

[Bible_Gazer]

I don't think scripture supports that theory at all. I think the USA will become the Babylon of Rev. 17 & 18.

I dont see the iron in the USA
So i cant see that happening

 

[Phoneman777]

I have no US of A rights which you hold dear to your heart.

Within God's understanding we have a responsibility to speak the truth, we have the responsibility to either respond to God's Love towards us individually or to reject outright God's Love.

Now if you will not answer my question of you about your religious affiliations, then I can only assume that you are an SDA adherent or similar i.e. United Church of God, because of your expressed understanding of who the beasts are and the support you have received in this thread from known SDA members on this forum.

Also, Isaiah 13:20 if understood within the context that it was originally written, speaks of a time period when Babylon would be devastated and desolated for a period of two ages, i.e. a little longer than 2,000 years. The English translation that you are relying on is expressing a context that was not originally in the Hebrew text of Isaiah and this contextual understanding is contrary to God's prophecy through Isaiah.

The issue is in the understanding of H:5331 which has the short meaning of "goal." In other words, the Goal of God was for Babylon and that goal was for a period of time, namely around 2,000 years, that Babylon would not be inhabited until it was remembered once more in 1926 when a kingdom, namely Iraq, was established over the area of Babylon, i.e. the land of the Chaldeans, by the victors over Turkey's empire at that time, i.e. after WW1. What also happened after WW1, was that Jerusalem was also partitioned into three administrative districts, just like Revelation 16:17-21 also tells us.

But your rebuttal argument is that my post was ridiculous and that you do not have the time to pick my post apart. Where you attempted to offer a rebuttal apology against my post you attempted to do so with "evidence" outside of the time period that I had written about. In other words you simply presented a false argument to justify your position.

As you have said, people have a right to believe what they want but to then claim that your understanding is the "truth" is actually stretching the truth quite a bit without the actual proof that it is. Your claim of truth is based on an interpretational opinion that other people have also sadly accepted.

Yes we perhaps should agree to disagree, but please do not claim to be wise concerning this topic.

Shalom

What part of "sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John" do you not understand? The book of Revelation is given in signs and symbols, and Babylon is a SYMBOL. As stated earlier, your beliefs are so unBiblical and so bizarre that I'll not any further discuss them with you, lest I become a party to your folly.

 

[Trekson]

I dont see the iron in the USA
So i cant see that happening

Where do you see "iron" in the description of Babylon? It's not in Rev. 17 or 18 and that is the only context Babylon can be associated with.

 

[Phoneman777]

It's simple really, if a prophecy isn't 100% fulfilled, it's not fulfilled. There are six parts of Dan. 9:24 that are prophesied to occur. Of the six only two could be considered fulfilled without resorting to symbolic shenanigans. 2 out of 6 = no fulfillment!

What you call "symbolic shenanigans" I call legitimate exegesis:

1. Did Jesus finish the transgression?
"It is finished!" meaning sin and death no longer have power over humanity because the debt is paid.

2. Did Jesus make an end of sin?
"It is finished!" meaning sin and death no longer have power over humanity because the debt is paid.

3. Did Jesus make reconciliation for iniquity?
"To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself."

4. Did Jesus bring in everlasting righteousness?
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

5. Did Jesus seal up the vision and the prophecy?
"...I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." Daniel was horrified at the vision of a coming 2,300 year period of oppression of God's people, knowing that in his old age freedom from captivity was supposed to be just around the corner. So, 490 Years was cut off and fulfilled by Christ as a surety, a seal of promise, a stamp of assuredness that "the sanctuary shall be cleansed" at the end of the 2,300.

6. Was the Most Holy anointed?
"How God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power."

 

[Phoneman777]

I like that. Guilt by association. *Jesuit futurists*. It so happens that the Jesuit who could see prophecies as being in the future was actually correct.

Wow. Just wow. The entire institution in Rome is nothing more than a system of perfected Babylonian Sun worship with every stripe and type of heresy, Christianized pagan ritual, practice, belief, etc....but SOMEHOW they arrived at a correct understanding of end times prophecy, while thousands of devout, God fearing Protestant Reformers were barking up the wrong tree. Just wow.

 

[Enoch111]

...but SOMEHOW they arrived at a correct understanding of end times prophecy, while thousands of devout, God fearing Protestant Reformers were barking up the wrong tree. Just wow.

When you mentioned *Jesuit futurists*, you were referring primarily to Manuel Lacunza, who used the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra when he wrote The Coming of the Messiah in Majesty and Glory. He was writing against the eschatology of both the Catholics and the Protestants (who followed Augustine in this matter). He even correctly stated this below:
...nor are those who believe in Christ so unarmed, as not to be able to resist him, and put him to flight; seeing that by the merits of Christ, and by the virtue of his cross, are now granted unto us, and placed in our hands, excellent weapons where with to resist his assaults, and subdue him under our feet.

Regardless of his false Catholic beliefs, no one (other than Amillennialists) can find fault with these observations Lacunza made in that book:

In the first place; if the thousand years of which St. John speaks in this passage, and which he repeats six times, signify nothing else than the whole period of the Church’s duration, either from the day of the incarnation of the Son of God, or from the day of his death, until Antichrist; we are actually living in that blessed season.

Well, then; and do you believe, friend Christophilus, that, in this our age, (and I may say the same of the ages past,) the dragon is bound with a great chain, locked up or imprisoned in the abyss, the door of his prison shut and sealed that he may no longer deceive the nations? ...

My friend, be not so credulous, the devil is now as loose and free as ever; the only novelty, yet one most worthy to be noticed, which took place at the date of Messiah’s death, and still holdeth with respect to the devil, is this, that neither does God grant him so much licence as he would have, nor are those who believe in Christ so unarmed, as not to be able to resist him, and put him to flight; seeing that by the merits of Christ, and by the virtue of his cross, are now granted unto us, and placed in our hands, excellent weapons where with to resist his assaults, and subdue him under our feet.

The devil is indeed loose and free and will only be bound during the Millennium. So if Lacunza took the thousand years of Revelation 20 literally, so to hundreds and thousands of Christians.

One again, Christians are to judge righteously, not make wild accusations against others.

 

[Trekson]

What you call "symbolic shenanigans" I call legitimate exegesis:

1. Did Jesus finish the transgression?
"It is finished!" meaning sin and death no longer have power over humanity because the debt is paid. No that's not what it means, it simply means that His coming as Kinsman Redeemer and Sacrificial Lamb has been accomplished. Is sin and death still in the world? Yes! Not fulfilled!

2. Did Jesus make an end of sin?
"It is finished!" meaning sin and death no longer have power over humanity because the debt is paid. Is sin and death still in the world? Yes! Not fulfilled! Every Christian in the world including the 12 disciples struggles (d) with the temptation of sin.

3. Did Jesus make reconciliation for iniquity?
"To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." 1 of the 2

4. Did Jesus bring in everlasting righteousness?
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: 2 of 2

5. Did Jesus seal up the vision and the prophecy?
"...I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." Daniel was horrified at the vision of a coming 2,300 year period of oppression of God's people, knowing that in his old age freedom from captivity was supposed to be just around the corner. So, 490 Years was cut off and fulfilled by Christ as a surety, a seal of promise, a stamp of assuredness that "the sanctuary shall be cleansed" at the end of the 2,300. No! People still receive visions and prophecies today, so not sealed up. Not fulfilled.

6. Was the Most Holy anointed?
"How God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power."

Not what this "anointing" means. The word used for "holy" signifies an object, not a person. I believe it will have a two part fulfillment probably occurring right around the same time. When Israel anoints Jesus as Messiah and King and when the place He will rule from in the millennial temple is anointed as cleansed. Not fulfilled! So in my opinion, not proper exegesis at all, just struggling to fit the wrong parts into the wrong puzzle so you can justify an errant interpretation of scripture.