The Proof of Salvation

[marks]

Having come from no pagan or other belief systems...

The "confusion and chaos" simply comes from thinking as men think, which you now also do by rationalizing what seems right according to men's thinking and understanding. But in doing so, you have effectively dismantled the eternity of both God and man. We are not born of God to be subordinate, neither was Jesus...except for "a time, times, and half a time." Of these things you lack understanding, and show yourself to be a mere student, and no teacher, except in prolonging the "time."

On the contrary, we are not born to be subordinate forever, but rather to be eternal with God and One, as God expands his own territory. Which unlike the life we (including Jesus) have or had in the world, which passes away, the life we have in Christ and God, does not pass away. By definition, none who are eternal as God is eternal, are subordinate. No part of God is subordinate to himself, and if we are born of him, we are born of and into his eternity, no less than himself. One.

Nevertheless, those who think like men will also talk like men, and teach like men.

Hi Scott,

How do you understand this part;

Revelation 21:2-4
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Much love!
Mark

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

How do you understand this part;

Revelation 21:2-4
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Much love!
Mark

You must mean chapter 22:2-4.

This speaks of the times in which we now live. In which those who are "in Christ" reign with him as kings and priests, who, "though they die, shall live." This is the time of the fulfilling of every promise, which things were all "sealed" at the cross. The "middle of the street" is the middle of the Way, whom is Christ. "Either side of the river" is the Life (whom is Christ) that flows to the dead, which is the house of Israel, and to the living, the other fold of the gentiles. And those who receive him in the glory of the spirit of God, "see His face", for they "are like Him", for they walk not in the flesh, but in the spirit also.

 

[marks]

You must mean chapter 22:2-4.

This speaks of the times in which we now live. In which those who are "in Christ" reign with him as kings and priests, who, "though they die, shall live." This is the time of the fulfilling of every promise, which things were all "sealed" at the cross. The "middle of the street" is the middle of the Way, whom is Christ. "Either side of the river" is the Life (whom is Christ) that flows to the dead, which is the house of Israel, and to the living, the other fold of the gentiles. And those who receive him in the glory of the spirit of God, "see His face", for they "are like Him", for they walk not in the flesh, but in the spirit also.

OK, thank you, and thank you for the correction! You were right, of course!

So on the passage, then, we have different ways of reading this. I take it as that there will be this river of water, which has the Tree of Life on either side, and that this is a place, and we will be there.

So, I can see where you would come to different conclusions from mine.

Much love!
Mark

 

[ScottA]

OK, thank you, and thank you for the correction! You were right, of course!

So on the passage, then, we have different ways of reading this. I take it as that there will be this river of water, which has the Tree of Life on either side, and that this is a place, and we will be there.

So, I can see where you would come to different conclusions from mine.

Much love!
Mark

What is manifest are images of things on high, which makes the images a parable, not what is real, but in it's likeness...just as we are made also in His image. So, then, to fully understand God, we must accept that He has translated a higher language into manifest children stories, not fully understood without spiritual maturity. Which is to say, without interpretation or explanation, just as it is with tongues. And likewise, the scriptures are otherwise clanging cymbals, not easily discerned. But this was done for our protection, for we are wheat among tares and lambs among wolves. As such, it is impossible to come to the knowledge of all truth promised by Christ, without the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

it is impossible to come to the knowledge of all truth promised by Christ, without the Holy Spirit.

With this I most certainly agree!

But to the rest I would ask for the Scriptural references where we are to understand these in a symbolic sense, and what specifically these symbols then stand for.

And example would be from Ezekiel 4. The prophet is to make a model of Jerusalem under seige, and is to lie on this side, then that side. And these are explained as meaning particular things, and what they mean.

When I see that, I know the meaning is Scripturally authorative.

Let's take this part, for instance:

"Either side of the river" is the Life (whom is Christ) that flows to the dead, which is the house of Israel, and to the living, the other fold of the gentiles.

Where in Scripture tells me that this river is not an actual river, but a symbol? And which is the passage which explains that two sides of the river are to the dead Jews and living gentiles?

Much love!
Mark

 

[Helen]

What is manifest are images of things on high, which makes the images a parable, not what is real, but in it's likeness...just as we are made also in His image. So, then, to fully understand God, we must accept that He has translated a higher language into manifest children stories, not fully understood without spiritual maturity. Which is to say, without interpretation or explanation, just as it is with tongues. And likewise, the scriptures are otherwise clanging cymbals, not easily discerned. But this was done for our protection, for we are wheat among tares and lambs among wolves. As such, it is impossible to come to the knowledge of all truth promised by Christ, without the Holy Spirit.

Excellent.....I am noting that Scott...I have tried saying that myself...but it doesn't come out as clearly as this above.

The best I can do is.."God speaks down to us in mouse-talk " ( ant talk is too smart...they are smarter than mice!!) ... our own comprehension is almost zero..impossible without the Holy Spirit.

I am putting that in my file...

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Reggie,
Thanks for your post…Let me try to respond to it..

You said, “ Well Jesus is not God the Father we all know that he did not create.”

Yes on both counts….Jesus is not God who is the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus never created the earth and the matter/ universe…God who is our Father did all this.

You said, “ Can one communicate past Jesus now ?”

I think you mean if one can speak to God without going through Christ’s spirit given to us. Yes! Have to go through Jesus

You said, “ I thought everything has to be done in Jesus Name to be worthy of God and if it's outside of that such will be burnt up because it's not worthy.”

Again, yes indeed

You said, “Jesus is the God of the Living not the dead he said, so that means it's all about us humans living in the Holy Spirit and that he is our Lord and Saviour, so nothing can go past that or around such at all ever and it never ever did from when humans were formed.”

Jesus is not God. God is one and only true living eternal being, alone and unique, and the Father of Jesus per scripture.

You said, “The Prophets were sent from God and God sent his only begotten Son to deal with the situation.”


Yes


You said, ” In Genesis 1:1-2 we see that the Spirit of God moved upon the waters and Jesus did the same as he is the Holy Spirit as well. that's what walking on the Water represents.”

I believe Jesus was propelled on the surface of the water by his Father; with his spirit embracing Jesus' own spirit. Jesus did not have this power in himself, independently. Jesus said he could not do anything without his Father as per scripture.


You said, “ No one can mess with God the Father because he created all.”

Yes, God, the Father of Jesus created all, not Jesus.


You said,” So all must come to Jesus Christ or you may as well not of been born, as all who are not worthy of him are only worthy of Hellfire as there works only led to such, as they are a curse or a pox on all.”

Jesus our Lord is our high priest and advocate to his Father and ours. So in this sense at least all believers come, and are in Christ.


Bless you,


APAK

I agree with you but I see the three, all as one united body so to speak, that can not function outside of this, without our understanding of Jesus being Emmanuel (God with us) as you say our high priest and advocate as to God and us. they can not be separated alone on there pat Malone as separate identity's outside it's universal concept as they all come back and binding in as one, to be sure to be sure.
We can see them as separate identity's but at the end of the day they are all united as one.
One could look at how oil and water that they can mix but they will always separate on their own accord, so they are not the same thing but with God such does not ever separate as it's binding in all ways, such as it can not be identified as outside of it's function, so all the function truly is the same in all. one can not add to it and one can not take away from it's function.
And such is all Gods creation and this is how I can see it all fitting together.

Now some talk of Jesus being God the Father some how, well he is clearly not as Jesus himself says so, but fact is he is God Emmanuel as to us because we can not function without him. so he is our God for us and for our Salvation, no one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son ? so Jesus knows the Father and no one truly did until Jesus came, all were lost but they only knew of God but they never knew God.
Not to mention that the Holy Spirit is the vehicle that always abounds in all such and you can't take it out of the picture ever because it is bound in all. so that's why all three are identified as one, all tho the three have different functions.

I hope that goes some way to explaining such.

 

[ScottA]

With this I most certainly agree!

But to the rest I would ask for the Scriptural references where we are to understand these in a symbolic sense, and what specifically these symbols then stand for.

And example would be from Ezekiel 4. The prophet is to make a model of Jerusalem under seige, and is to lie on this side, then that side. And these are explained as meaning particular things, and what they mean.

When I see that, I know the meaning is Scripturally authorative.

Let's take this part, for instance:



Where in Scripture tells me that this river is not an actual river, but a symbol? And which is the passage which explains that two sides of the river are to the dead Jews and living gentiles?

Much love!
Mark

I would suggest that instead of unfolding the scriptures, that this we have already done, and it is time rather to fold them again. By this I mean, that you should know that Christ is called many things, among them "the Tree of Life", "the Life", and "a life-giving spirit." As well, surely you also know already that there are "waters below" and "waters above", and that it is Christ alone who has "ascended and also descended." So, knowing that you know these things already - since He is life, is there anything that has life that is not of Christ?

As for the symbolic nature of the word, you also should know that it is His Way to have created "in His image" and "in His likeness", that His "words are spirit." But perhaps you have missed that in His fulfillment of "opening His mouth in parables" it says of Him also, that He "spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them." I ask you, can this be said of the Word only in the local immediate context? That would be shortsighted, to say the least, when it should be insightful in coming to know the fullness of the Word which has no such limit. For certainly, from before the foundation of the world and the eve of Eve, to His being the manna come down from heaven, the lamb of God, the bread of life and the Light of the world, He is nothing if literally those actual things.

As for the two sides (of the river, as it were)...does Christ bring three "folds?" Is His sacrifice taken away in the beginning, at the end...or in "the middle?" Is Christ and the cross, the apex of all things, the old and the new, the house of Israel, and the times of the gentiles...or not? Surely, He is. Thus, if Christ came for the house of Israel, "that they may have life and have it more abundantly", surely they "were dead in there trespasses", "the dead in Christ" whom He gave His life for, which makes them "the first who would be last." The other side of which is "the other fold which He must also bring", who are "the living in Christ", "the last who would be first."

But these things you know...and need only take them to heart.

 

[marks]

I would suggest that instead of unfolding the scriptures, that this we have already done, and it is time rather to fold them again. By this I mean, that you should know that Christ is called many things, among them "the Tree of Life", "the Life", and "a life-giving spirit." As well, surely you also know already that there are "waters below" and "waters above", and that it is Christ alone who has "ascended and also descended." So, knowing that you know these things already - since He is life, is there anything that has life that is not of Christ?

As for the symbolic nature of the word, you also should know that it is His Way to have created "in His image" and "in His likeness", that His "words are spirit." But perhaps you have missed that in His fulfillment of "opening His mouth in parables" it says of Him also, that He "spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them." I ask you, can this be said of the Word only in the local immediate context? That would be shortsighted, to say the least, when it should be insightful in coming to know the fullness of the Word which has no such limit. For certainly, from before the foundation of the world and the eve of Eve, to His being the manna come down from heaven, the lamb of God, the bread of life and the Light of the world, He is nothing if literally those actual things.

As for the two sides (of the river, as it were)...does Christ bring three "folds?" Is His sacrifice taken away in the beginning, at the end...or in "the middle?" Is Christ and the cross, the apex of all things, the old and the new, the house of Israel, and the times of the gentiles...or not? Surely, He is. Thus, if Christ came for the house of Israel, "that they may have life and have it more abundantly", surely they "were dead in there trespasses", "the dead in Christ" whom He gave His life for, which makes them "the first who would be last." The other side of which is "the other fold which He must also bring", who are "the living in Christ", "the last who would be first."

But these things you know...and need only take them to heart.

So the entire Bible is a parable? Don't you know where that leads?

Much love!
mark

 

[ScottA]

So the entire Bible is a parable? Don't you know where that leads?

Much love!
mark

Yes. And yes, it leads to God, to heaven rather than the world.

 

[marks]

Yes. And yes, it leads to God, to heaven rather than the world.

Rather it leads to every one interpreting according to their own hearts.

What is the Scriptural authority for your interpretations?

Much love!
mark

 

[ScottA]

Rather it leads to every one interpreting according to their own hearts.

What is the Scriptural authority for your interpretations?

Much love!
mark

Don't misunderstand. Everyone does indeed interpret according to their own will, which is the will of God in the judgement.

But that does not mean I condone other incorrect interpretations, or that I am promoting my own interpretation...I am just stating what should be clear and obvious if one is inline with the Holy Spirit according to God and His word. That is why I said, "You should already know these things."

On the other hand, many who are empowered by the Holy Spirit are not in alignment with God and His word. Which, by the power of God, is to their demise.

 

[marks]

Don't misunderstand. Everyone does indeed interpret according to their own will, which is the will of God in the judgement.

But that does not mean I condone other incorrect interpretations, or that I am promoting my own interpretation...I am just stating what should be clear and obvious if one is inline with the Holy Spirit according to God and His word. That is why I said, "You should already know these things."

On the other hand, many who are empowered by the Holy Spirit are not in alignment with God and His word. Which, by the power of God, is to their demise.

So then you have no Scriptural authority?

How would we possibly know your interpretation is correct? Oh, right, If I'm empowered by the Spirit, I'll must know. So if I disagree, that means I'm not in alignment with God.

Either I just know you're right, or else I'm out of touch.

Is that what you are saying?

Much love!
Mark

 

[ScottA]

So then you have no Scriptural authority?

How would we possibly know your interpretation is correct? Oh, right, If I'm empowered by the Spirit, I'll must know. So if I disagree, that means I'm not in alignment with God.

Either I just know you're right, or else I'm out of touch.

Is that what you are saying?

Much love!
Mark

Of course I do (have scriptural authority).

The rules have not changed: The scriptures are the truth from God, but must be spiritually discerned. But the Holy Spirit being poured out upon all flesh according to prophecy for our time, does not say on all "good" flesh, or all "for good." "All" then means the power of God poured out on both the good and the evil, which I say is unto judgement...which I do according to the scriptures, for it is written: "whatever a man sows, that he will also reap."

Also, if you know the truth of the scriptures, do not expect quoting or chapter and verse, which only serve those who don't know. If you know, you should not have to ask. Those who have to ask, may have the Holy Spirit, but have not come to know Him fully, and therefore are in no position to comment. Such, should only have questions...not statements, or challenges, as if to test God. Quotes are given sparingly, but only for those who do not know the truth: "Faith comes by hearing", etc.

So then, if you hear a word and do not know if it is from God or not, go then to the source, whom is God - but in spirit, not by the scriptures alone, because even the demons know the scriptures.

 

[marks]

Those who have to ask, may have the Holy Spirit, but have not come to know Him fully, and therefore are in no position to comment.

So then those who disagree with you should just keep quiet about it?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

All" then means the power of God poured out on both the good and the evil, which I say is unto judgement...which I do according to the scriptures, for it is written: "whatever a man sows, that he will also reap."

You know this is non-sequitor, right?

A man reaps what he sows, yes. The Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh, yes.

You say unto judgment.

But where is the link?

Jesus said the Spirit would convict the world of sin, and righteousness, and judgment. Not that the Spirit would judge Himself.

1 Peter 1:17 "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Peter speaks of the Father judging everyone's work.

Paul wrote to Timothy:

2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Where is the Scripture that teaches the Holy Spirit judging the good and evil men?

Much love!
Mark

 

[ScottA]

So then those who disagree with you should just keep quiet about it?

Much love!
Mark

No, but those who do not know, should indeed remain silent. Can you tell me the scripture I am now quoting?

 

[ScottA]

You know this is non-sequitor, right?

A man reaps what he sows, yes. The Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh, yes.

You say unto judgment.

But where is the link?

Jesus said the Spirit would convict the world of sin, and righteousness, and judgment. Not that the Spirit would judge Himself.

1 Peter 1:17 "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Peter speaks of the Father judging everyone's work.

Paul wrote to Timothy:

2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Where is the Scripture that teaches the Holy Spirit judging the good and evil men?

Much love!
Mark

Really? I gave you the scriptures - I quoted them...and so did you!

A man reaps what he sows, yes. The Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh, yes.

 

[marks]

No, but those who do not know, should indeed remain silent. Can you tell me the scripture I am now quoting?

Let's actually talk about the Scriptures germain to the point.

Except, if you really really actually think I should remain silent, why do you encourage me?

I know that you are the arbitor of those who know and those who don't.

Just the same, I still maintain that if you declare Scripture to be symbols, but lack the clear definition of those symbols in Scripture, then your interpretations by definition lack Scriptural authority.

I think we're just going to go in circles now.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

Really? I gave you the scriptures - I quoted them...and so did you!

Make like I'm dense and actually show the link. I don't see it.

We sow, and we reap. The Spirit is poured out on all flesh.

But in another man's understanding, the Spirit is poured out on all flesh for the purposing of drawing all men to Christ, to save them from judgment. Why should that not be so?

Much love!
mark