Why Christians Disagree

[Nancy]

Wanting evidence is wanting proof. But, neither your evidence or proof leads you anywhere. You already said you can't know.

Why do I lack faith? I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I know God and Jesus Christ. Where is the lack of faith? Give me the verse if you want to quote the Bible. I know the verse, but you're the one saying it.

I'm not interested in providing evidence to others. And, I am not required to. I simply declare Jesus Christ to all.

You only guess your wife loves you also.

Stranger

Bah, it doesn't matter what anyone say's anyhow. Jesus The Christ came to us, bought Heaven down to us in the flesh, He did numerous miracles and men STILL did not believe. There is only one way to have a relationship with The Creator and that is through The Spirit. Otherwise it all sounds like drivel to those whom the god of this world blind.

 

[Nancy]

Good verses sister.

Stranger

Aren't they all? ♥

 

[Vince]

Your explanation of Venus makes your claim of insufficient evidence of God void.

Not at all. We just disagree that there is sufficient evidence.

As I said before, you have believed worldly things, but do not extend the same to God.

There are worldly things that I do not believe such as big foot, alien abductions, Elvis sightings etc. I am treating my belief in god consistent with my other beliefs.

 

[Vince]

Illogical to you. Not to God or to His people. Yes, I know. And I know God exists, and I know Jesus Christ is God the Son and Saviour.

A believer doesn't stop believing. It is not in his power to do so. So, yes, that would make you a liar. Ive listened to atheists for years whine how they used to believe but then quit as they saw the error of their ways.

And you call them all liars, right? This is what your faith has done to you. In order to keep your belief you must discount peoples own personal experience. You say I am a liar because I said I believed in god, so you think that the millions of people that have stopped believing in god at some point in their lives are all liars and never believed. Instead of denying reality on this issue be honest with yourself and at least admit that you don't know why people stop believing.

Yes you mock Christ, Christianity, and Christians. Your whole purpose is to cast doubt upon the Christians faith because of the lack of your evidence and proof.

Stranger

To you asking honest questions and asking for evidence to believe something is true is mocking god. Again, look at what your belief has done to your thinking.

 

[Stranger]

And you call them all liars, right? This is what your faith has done to you. In order to keep your belief you must discount peoples own personal experience. You say I am a liar because I said I believed in god, so you think that the millions of people that have stopped believing in god at some point in their lives are all liars and never believed. Instead of denying reality on this issue be honest with yourself and at least admit that you don't know why people stop believing.


To you asking honest questions and asking for evidence to believe something is true is mocking god. Again, look at what your belief has done to your thinking.

Of course I do. Christian faith and belief is not something you can turn on and off. You have it or you don't. If you don't now have what you had, what you had was not the Christian belief. You had your worldly belief which is based on your evidence and proof. Or you simply went along with how your parents believed. But you did not have the Christian faith.

You're questions are not honest. You're not looking for God and so are asking questions. You are asking questions to create doubt in the Christians faith. You're unbelief is most happy when in the presence of those you can cause to doubt as you do. You hope that the lack of evidence and proof that you are calling for will cause unbelief in the believer. But, the reality is, it won't.

Stranger

 

[Vince]

Wanting evidence is wanting proof. But, neither your evidence or proof leads you anywhere. You already said you can't know.

Nope again. Look at the definitions of evidence and proof that I posted. They are different things.

Why do I lack faith? I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I know God and Jesus Christ. Where is the lack of faith? Give me the verse if you want to quote the Bible. I know the verse, but you're the one saying it.

John 20:24-29 ESV
24 Now was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

This story illustrates that belief without good evidence is what Jesus is commending here verse 29. Thomas had good reasons to not believe, he had never seen anyone raised from the dead. He lacked sufficient evidence in his opinion. All the evidence he had was testimonial evidence from other apostles. From his knowledge about death he rightly had insufficient evidence to believe Jesus was dead and is now alive.

Noah heard a voice telling him to build an ark, he built it on faith not proof, Abraham heard a voice telling him to leave his home and he did on faith, Sarah believed she would have a child despite every piece of evidence she had was to the contrary. These people were commended for their faith in Hebrews 11 and did not have direct knowledge.

It seems that the bible indicates that believing without sufficient evidence is faith and Hebrews 11:6 says you cannot please god without faith. So if you know god exists somehow then you are like Thomas and lack faith and cannot please god.

Heb 11:6 ESV: And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

So this verse says that you must believe first, draw near to him first then he will reward you. This actually conflicts with John 6:44 where it says that no one comes unless the father draws them.

John 6:44 ESV: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

There are numerous other examples of the bible indicating faith is believing without sufficient evidence and it being commended.

You only guess your wife loves you also.

Nope, I have sufficient evidence that she does.

 

[ScottA]

Not at all. We just disagree that there is sufficient evidence.

There are worldly things that I do not believe such as big foot, alien abductions, Elvis sightings etc. I am treating my belief in god consistent with my other beliefs.

Yes, and that is the measure of insufficiency you now have. Such is the promise of God.

 

[Nancy]

Of course I do. Christian faith and belief is not something you can turn on and off. You have it or you don't. If you don't now have what you had, what you had was not the Christian belief. You had your worldly belief which is based on your evidence and proof. Or you simply went along with how your parents believed. But you did not have the Christian faith.

You're questions are not honest. You're not looking for God and so are asking questions. You are asking questions to create doubt in the Christians faith. You're unbelief is most happy when in the presence of those you can cause to doubt as you do. You hope that the lack of evidence and proof that you are calling for will cause unbelief in the believer. But, the reality is, it won't.

Stranger

Good post Stranger. Once I believe how could I possibly un-believe? Lack of true faith and, we all know He will not be pleased without it.
James 1:6-8
6 "But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind.
7 "Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8'Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.

 

[Vince]

Good post Stranger. Once I believe how could I possibly un-believe? Lack of true faith and, we all know He will not be pleased without it.
James 1:6-8
6 "But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind.
7 "Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8'Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.

How much faith in god alone must you have for god to give you anything? 100%, 90%, 51%? The Bible says that we are all sinners and fall short, so how can a sinner have 100% faith in god alone all the time? Seems to be an impossible standard.

 

[Nancy]

How much faith in god alone must you have for god to give you anything? 100%, 90%, 51%? The Bible says that we are all sinners and fall short, so how can a sinner have 100% faith in god alone all the time? Seems to be an impossible standard.

Ah yes, but NOTHING is impossible with God. Our faith can wane, or it can stagnate or grow stronger. One of the scriptures I used to use in my head allot is "God, I believe, help my unbelief" Mark 9:24.
I was a pew warmer for over 4 years in the 90's. Just didn't get it...went back into the world for many years and it has been about a good decade that I had been seeking Him but to no avail until, about 5 years ago I was rock bottom (will not get into that, lol) and for the very first time ever, I literally got on my face and opened my clenched fists and surrendered to Him...I have not looked back since. I was a bar fly...drink, drugs, sex...you name it, for the large part of my life. So, for me it was all in total surrender. I do fail in my faith many times but, boy has He grown it as I pray and watch Him work!
"Blessed is He who believes without seeing"! BUT-you WILL see the awesome fruits of true faith if you can bring yourself there...He has blessed me beyond measure and I am still pinching myself over what He has done for me just over the last 5 years alone. Nobody can "give you sufficient evidence" to believe in God...God will give that to you as you trust His, REALLY trust Him...even though you do not SEE Him...give Him an honest chance to show what true faith can do. He saved my house, He restored broken relationships, he saved my LIFE, he saved ME! I could never look back.
God Bless you in your endevours,
In Him
nancy

 

[Vince]

Nobody can "give you sufficient evidence" to believe in God...God will give that to you as you trust His, REALLY trust Him...even though you do not SEE Him...give Him an honest chance to show what true faith can do.

I did for 18 years. Although I have been called a liar by more than one person at this forum.

 

[Vince]

Yes, and that is the measure of insufficiency you now have. Such is the promise of God.

The evidence you give for your god is the same evidence others give for their different god such as Mormonism. With so many god claims how do you tell who is telling the truth?

 

[ScottA]

The evidence you give for your god is the same evidence others give for their different god such as Mormonism. With so many god claims how do you tell who is telling the truth?

Ask. Seek. Knock.

Only One will actually answer.

 

[Stranger]

Nope again. Look at the definitions of evidence and proof that I posted. They are different things.



John 20:24-29 ESV
24 Now was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

This story illustrates that belief without good evidence is what Jesus is commending here verse 29. Thomas had good reasons to not believe, he had never seen anyone raised from the dead. He lacked sufficient evidence in his opinion. All the evidence he had was testimonial evidence from other apostles. From his knowledge about death he rightly had insufficient evidence to believe Jesus was dead and is now alive.

Noah heard a voice telling him to build an ark, he built it on faith not proof, Abraham heard a voice telling him to leave his home and he did on faith, Sarah believed she would have a child despite every piece of evidence she had was to the contrary. These people were commended for their faith in Hebrews 11 and did not have direct knowledge.

It seems that the bible indicates that believing without sufficient evidence is faith and Hebrews 11:6 says you cannot please god without faith. So if you know god exists somehow then you are like Thomas and lack faith and cannot please god.

Heb 11:6 ESV: And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

So this verse says that you must believe first, draw near to him first then he will reward you. This actually conflicts with John 6:44 where it says that no one comes unless the father draws them.

John 6:44 ESV: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

There are numerous other examples of the bible indicating faith is believing without sufficient evidence and it being commended.

Nope, I have sufficient evidence that she does.

Yup again. Wanting evidence is wanting proof.

(John 20:24-29) and (Heb. 11) are good verses indeed. Do you believe them? Of course not. But I do.

The fact that God is working in the life of the believer, opening the eyes of his spirit to the things of God, convincing him of the truth of God and Christ to the degree that the believer exercises faith and knows these things are true, doesn't take away from it being faith. After all, look at yourself. I offer you my faith. You whine and moan and want evidence and proof. My faith brings with it a knowing. But it is a knowing by the Spirit. Not by your evidence and proof. Thus there is no problem with (John 6:44). (1 John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

God has chosen the way to Him to be by faith, so that He controls the way to Him.

Thomas doubted that Christ rose from the dead. Thomas did not doubt that there was God. Was it a disappointment to Christ? Of course. But because Thomas was a believer, Christ went out of His way to assure him.

And, why would you say I don't have faith when I believe all that is written about Christ in the Bible. Just as the verses you gave said. "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." I happen to be one of those. Just because faith brings with it a knowing, doesn't negate the faith.

I was just going by what you said. Post #(647) You can't know.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I did for 18 years. Although I have been called a liar by more than one person at this forum.

Sure you did.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

How much faith in god alone must you have for god to give you anything? 100%, 90%, 51%? The Bible says that we are all sinners and fall short, so how can a sinner have 100% faith in god alone all the time? Seems to be an impossible standard.

Our faith is from God. Thus He knows who has it. He gave it. Impossible? Of course. God does things like that.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

Nope. Evidence does not prove anything. Evidence leads to a belief that something is true. It must be evaluated. I believe my wife loves me because of a mountain of evidence that says she does. I cannot prove she loves me, I cannot know 100% that she does. In any court case evidence for and against is presented and a jury needs to evaluate the evidence to see if it is most likely true or not.

You keep harping about your rules, about what you do and do not find to be sufficient. The problem is, the world does not operate by your rules. That's not how things work here...maybe in your little world, but not in the real world. We have told you what the rules are, and who's rules they are. So has God. In fact, He says that looking for evidence is evil.

Why are you not getting this?

 

[bbyrd009]

Once I believe how could I possibly un-believe?

by changing your mind?

The first to tell his side in court seems right, until another comes and examines him

Love believes all things

see how simple it is to make Christians think belief = faith, and then change Beliefs into "Absolute Truths" as a counterfeit for "keeping the faith." And all you have to do then is ignore the same Scriptures he ignores, and voila I guess. May as well be singing When We All Get to Heaven

 

[Vince]

Ask. Seek. Knock.

Only One will actually answer.

Maybe. Mormons, Muslims say this same thing and they believe their god to be the true god. Just as you think you have the true god.

 

[Vince]

Yup again. Wanting evidence is wanting proof.

Just because you think this does not make it true. Can you explain this further? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. I gave the definitions of evidence and proof and they are not the same thing.

The fact that God is working in the life of the believer, opening the eyes of his spirit to the things of God, convincing him of the truth of God and Christ to the degree that the believer exercises faith and knows these things are true, doesn't take away from it being faith.

After all, look at yourself. I offer you my faith. You whine and moan and want evidence and proof.

You keep characterizing honest questions with whining and moaning etc. Why? You keep lying about me that I want proof. Why? I think its because to keep your theology n tact you must call others liars and false Christians. Why do you think it is?

My faith brings with it a knowing. But it is a knowing by the Spirit. Not by your evidence and proof. Thus there is no problem with (John 6:44). (1 John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

And there are verses that say the opposite as I have showed.

Thomas doubted that Christ rose from the dead. Thomas did not doubt that there was God. Was it a disappointment to Christ? Of course. But because Thomas was a believer, Christ went out of His way to assure him.

Ok, but Paul says without the resurrection we are to be pitied. So believing the resurrection is vital to the christian theology. He doubted that.

And, why would you say I don't have faith when I believe all that is written about Christ in the Bible. Just as the verses you gave said. "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." I happen to be one of those. Just because faith brings with it a knowing, doesn't negate the faith.

100% knowing that god exists is not faith as defined in the bible. I know you disagree.