When to look for the rapture of the church

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Taken

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I didn't say Jesus would descend to the Clouds.
.

Scripture says that, and I agree with Scripture.

That's your idea, and it is not written in God's Word.

1 Thes 4
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ...

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR :

Zechariah 14 reveals He will descend to the earth, His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1, like I showed.

Sure. He will descend FROM the CLOUDS TO EARTH.

Obviously, you're in no shape for an honest conversation.

You ignoring His Descent TO THE CLOUDS, has nothing to do with ME or your accusation of dishonesty toward ME.

If you seek the Truth of Scripture Follow the Order of what Scripture reveals.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Naomi25

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That would be possible except that Yeshua pretty much stated in Matthew 24 that Daniel's comments about the abomination in the temple should be seen as a literal occurrence. Yeshua was speaking to a Hebrew audience in that passage. They were not looking for allegorical esoteric meanings in what Yeshua said and there is no indication that Yeshua expected them to.

A literal occurance that is seen in 70AD. The context of the conversation is clear...if Christ is speaking of a literal temple, he is speaking about the one they are gazing upon then, and the one he is warning them will be torn down stone by stone.
And that "Hebrew" audience that Jesus was speaking to, by the way? They were the ones that began taking the OT prophecies and applying them 'spiritually'. For example: In Jeremiah 31:31, we have a verse that, if taken "literally" says that a 'new covenant' must be made with 'literal Israel'. However, when we come to the NT, we see that in Luke 22:20 Jesus, then again in Heb 8, this promise to 'Israel, and the house of Judah', is actually made to the Church. We see this happenig again and again in the NT...Paul, applying promises made to Abraham to the Church...to the 'heirs according to promise'.
So...I don't think "audience" means much. Especially since we know that until the Spirit descending upon them at Pentecost, the Disciples really didn't have much of a clue about anything.


Don't get so melodramatic. I stated that those passages, when compared and viewed in light of each other, there really is no way they can be seen outside of a literal context. And yes, I would question a person's brain oxygen level if they didn't. The only other excuse is holding to a unwavering agenda. At least the drug thing is a weakness. The unwavering agenda thing is malicious and intentional.
"Don't be so melodramatic that I stated you'd have to be on drugs to think that way. I only meant you'd have to be oxygen deficient".
Well, thanks. Clears that right up.
Let me just make this point: there is a difference between "allegorizing" something to make a point, and using images to portray deeper truths. For example: advertising agencies...they do their best work with images, right? Not just text? Text is hard to engage you...hard to envoke your emotions, your imagination, your wonder. Likewise, when we hear of some terrible tragedy on the news...it's terrible. But when we SEE the images on our TV, we understand something deeper about it...it becomes more real for us.
Using images does not make something less true. And describing something that is happening in the spiritual realm does not make it less true. Unless you want to admit that our faith does NOT have a spiritual element to it? No?
How much of Revelation is spent describing spiritual things? God, the throne around him, angelic beings, demonic beings, the judgements carried out by said spiritual beings? How is it, do you think, that such things would be portrayed with satisfaction, without some really good imagry going on? Do YOU know what an angel looks like? A demon? Who are you to say what is being described ISN'T what they actually...literally, look like. Who's to say that all these things going on "behind the curtain", where we cannot see, in heaven, are not, literally, happening?
So...it's not a straight forward manner of 'literal' or 'not literal'...and if you fall into the 'not literal' camp, you must be high or oxygen deprived.

You are correct! it will end up no better than what is going on now. To the point where, when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment a major rebellion of the nations. Psalms is very clear in supporting that idea...
Yes, I am correct. And where on earth is there this idea that we're going to have this "do-over"...only this time we'll actually have Christ ruling and reigning...apparently with a "rod of Iron"....and still everything goes to hell...literally. Where is this in scripture? What is it's purpose? It's not there...it has none!
Scripture teaches of 2 ages..."this age"...and "the age to come". "The age where we try again and stuff up again" doesn't fit into the picture.

Psalms 2 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.’ ”
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
The problem with quoting this Psalm is that...it's not really talking about the Millennium. This is the time when David and his rule extended over a good chunk of Gentile nations, and they were not happy, so they threatened revolt. David's Psalm, often called the "royal psalm", was one of supreme confidence. He rested in the promises of God...the promise that one of his descendents would forever be on the throne...he felt he was secure. But also, he knew that God sat in heaven and laughed at the workings of man. God's purposes would come about no matter what! God promised David a future King from his line...and David knew exactly that would happen.
But, as we know, Jesus Christ was often not the "Messiah" that was looked for from the OT writings. King...yes. Saviour, absolutely. Conqueror? Second time around, you better believe it. But...nothing here says we must have a 1000 year on earth reign which will ultimately end in a rebellion that Christ defeats. Sorry.

Compare that to Revelation 20.....

Revelation 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Ps 2 says nothing about Satan, his being bound or release. Nations always 'rage' against God...that is the nature of 'this age' and the sinful way of the unrighteous.
So...other than your attempt to link the two passages with 'the people got mad'....I see no correlation at all.

But the examples in the kingdom parables support this. The Parable of the Mustard Tree. The birds are nesting in the tree. In the previous parable of the Sower, the birds are the evil ones.
I'm not exactly sure what it is you're pushing at with these parables, but...I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Just because the birds were evil in the previous parable, doesn't mean there are here...it's a separate parable, we are not told the birds are evil, so to assume such is not wise. Birds, by their natures, are not evil. In fact, Jesus tells us that God cares for the birds. I think the only point Christ was making with the birds was that the tree, that had started so tiny, was now so large that birds were flocking to it's strong branches to build nests in.

And...it seems to me that if this was a parable about the Millennium kingdom, it would be the other way about, don't you? If this glorious Millennium starts with most sinners gone, just those of us Raptured or saved through the Trib, and with Jesus reigning, it'd be a pretty sweet place. Strong in unity and love, growing and blossoming. But then, as numbers grew, so would rebellion and sin. Like cancer, the blackness and death would spread.
However, if the parable is talking about the kingdom now, it makes much more sense....the Church began small, just a few Jews in Jerusalem. But it began spreading like a wildfire! Now it covers the planet! Yes, sinners grow along with us...but, we are to expect that...Jesus tells us that in the Parable of the Weeds. It shall be "fixed" at the "end of the age"...the harvest, when all the weeds shall be burned.
I don't know about you...but I'm still not seeing any space for a 1000 year 'do-over' of what we have now.

The Parable of the Leaven. A woman is hiding leaven in three measures of meal. Three measures of meal is the fellowship offering at the Temple. Leaven is always symbolic of sin and corruption. Remember how Yeshua told His disciples to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees? To hide leaven in the fellowship offering at the temple was a capital crime.
Yes, leaven is mostly used as sin and corruption...because sin and corruption can spread, just like leaven. But in this parables case, leaven is not used as evil, but in the case of the gospel, because the Kingdom has indeed spread, just like leaven.
Again and again Jesus tells us that the Kingdom starts small, but grows into something massive. He doesn't, in any place I'm aware of, tell us that he's gonna do it again. Kingdom 2.0.
 
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Naomi25

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Well, I do appreciate the honesty. It removes any suspicion. And it was a good chuckle.

But using Bible verses, you have failed to follow the Torah evidentiary requirement in establishing a matter as exampled to us by the Bereans in the Book of Acts. To be taken more seriously regarding your views, it would bolster your position if you adhered to that standard.
I suppose this is a sort of an ongoing problem. For me...I've posted SO many verses plotting out, painstakingly, my view. Usually getting me nowhere...but, you know, that's sort of par for the course, I suppose. But sure...maybe YOU haven't seen all those verses I posted...mostly to CoreIssue, and Enoch111 and Trekson, but they're there, and sometimes I just don't have the time to do 'em all over again. I've been a bit slammed, time wise, lately. It can be golly time consuming, can't it, doing some proper exegesis on a passage? I probably should cheat and have some big chunks down I can copy and paste. Hmmm, something to think about. Anyway...I just felt the need to say, I don't skimp of scripture. In point of fact I make a big point of insisting on it. If you can't back your opinion up with it, what's the point.
 

Naomi25

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Your problem is in defining Tereo you neglected ek. They are not just two words they are a phrase in phrases have different meanings than individual words. Translation Is kept from. From does not mean in and through. It means elsewhere. There is no elsewhere on the earth from the trib.

The sealed are the woman, not Church.

Revelation 12:6
6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Taken care of not Tereo ek from the world. Only the church is Tereo ek.

And of course you did exactly what I said you should not.

Lot was not removed from the whole world because the place of issue was not the whole world.

It does not matter what the issue or solution is for you. What the Bible says is what matters.

Same does not mean servant of God. It means set apart for God.

Angels are servants of God but they are not saints.

Even in heaven and the new Jerusalem Israel and the church are not identical. Nor are the saved who were neither.

I repeat, from the seventh to the second coming there is absolutely no mention of church or Christian revelation.

Those that turn to God in the tribulation are called tribulation saints. God does not protect them from wrath.

Revelation 7
, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10
13
Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You need to do a lot more study because what you're saying is simply wrong.

But that requires doing so in open-heart, mind and ears. Not sure you can do it,

:rolleyes:
I would LOVE to keep bashing my head against what is the best translation of Tereo Ek is, but to be perfectly up-front and honest with, it's just not worth my time or energy...and I'll tell you why. From my perspective...from the Amillennial view....we are already IN the Tribulation, and sorry, we are clearly being kept IN it. As per Christ's prayer to the Father. As per his promise that in this life we'll have tribulation. As per Rev 7:14...the great multitude from every nation and tongue and tribe, all wearing white robes. This is the great commission at work over the last 2000 years, which will continue until Christ's return.
And honestly, if we're talking open ears, heart and mind...I do...I did...that's why I WAS a Dispensationalists, and am no longer. A Pre-trib, Pre-Mil Rapture is not in scripture.
 
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Naomi25

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I may have to address your post in multiple replies, since you made a long post (which long posts are OK by me).

I don't see a problem at all with reading the end of Rev.19 with it then flowing right into Rev.20. The beast and false prophet are destroyed, but Satan as the dragon is not yet destroyed. That shows the beast and false prophet are only 'roles' for the end, and not literally flesh men.
It's not that there's a problem having Satan live past the beast and false prophet...not at all. Let me try and give you another example of why chronology is tricky in Revelation:

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” -Revelation 6:12–17

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” -Revelation 7:1–3


Ok...In Chapter 6 we have, really, a theophany...a visible manifestation of God to mankind. It is so terrible, so horrifying, the inhabitants of the world cry out of the very rocks and mountains to crush them. We see the sun blotting out, great stars falling, the sky vanishing, every mountain and Island being 'removed'. This happens when they "see" the face of the one sitting on the throne...the wrath of the Lamb. It is...clearly...Christ's return.
And yet, in the next Chapter we see that apparently the 'sky' is back, because we have wind. Islands and mountains and land...no problem, because now we're told to not harm even the trees or grass. And angel rises from the sun that was previously blocked out....

Now...Dispensationalists mostly says that if "God blocked out the sun, he can unblock it", and yes, that is true...but is that what's going on here, and the other times it happens? Does God play 'rewind' several times in the book, or do the many theophanies and 'world ending' judgements we see find a more realistic reading in a series of visions that are themselves repeating, rather than a series of disasters, repeating. If you believe one is possible, you have to believe the other is possible as well...the question becomes, which is the truth.

For me, it's Christ's return that's the answer. If people on earth see his face in 6:16, and in 11:15 we are told his the kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and then in 19:11-21 Christ comes to defeat his enemies, then potentially we have not only several different 'worldly apocolypses', but also several different Christ comings. That does't match up with anything else scripture reveals. So, we begin to consider recapitulation.

It's easy to know that simply because no flesh man is even judged and sentenced to perish until the Rev.20 "thousand years" is over. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perdition (I keep having to repeat this, I wonder why so few can remember it?).
Just curious, how do you understand this then? It quite clearly says that "when" Jesus comes, "then" he will sit on his throne and judge. And they "will go away into eternal punishment".

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32, 46


Since our Lord Jesus hadn't even yet died on the cross and raised from the dead when He spoke that to His disciples, that should have given you a huge clue of something. It shows that His Kingdom had then come only spiritually for His chosen servants that He chose to first preach The Gospel, and them who would believe by their word. Still today, Christ's LITERAL Kingdom has yet to come upon this earth. Church buildings are not The Father's promise to David that Christ would sit upon his throne, an earthly throne in Jerusalem. So understanding about Christ inheriting David's earthly throne when He returns settles men's doctrines on what Jesus meant by what kingdom has already come on earth (see Matthew 25:31).
I don't think it was a "clue" to anything. I think Jesus was saying it like it was. And, like normal, his Disciples didn't get it...they didn't get it until the Spirit came upon them. It was only then that they stopped asking for and expecting an earthly kingdom, and started going about growing Christ's spiritual kingdom through spreading the gospel.
When Jesus said his Kingdom was not of this earth, he meant it. When he said the Kingdom was among them, he meant it. When he said that the kingdom started small, like a mustard seed, and would grow to massive size, he meant it. When Paul said that Christ is ruling and reigning now, he meant it. When Paul said that in Christ, all of God's promises to Abraham have been fulfilled...find their yes and amen...he meant it. And if we, as Christ's followers, want that Kingdom and those promises, then we follow Christ, denying ourselves and taking up our crosses, no matter the tribulation we see.

Revelation is both chronological and non-chronological. There aren't timeline jumps after each verse in all Revelation chapters. But there are many timeline jumps to the past, future, and present, just as it is in the Old Testament Books of the prophets. Someone who studied the OT prophets will have a lot less problem in study of our Lord's Revelation. I kind of feel sorry for brethren reading Revelation that haven't first studied the OT prophets.

Revelation draws most of its imagry from the OT, so, yes, knowing the OT puts you at an advantage when reading the book. And no, not every chapter is non-chronological. There are a set of visions, and they are repeated. They are interrupted by parentheses visions (Rev 12, or Rev 18 for eg).
 

Taken

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When I say that these passages that talk of 'wrath' in terms of 'salvation and wrath', I am not saying that it speaks of 'obtaining salvation' in the form of...we get to the end and open up our 'kinder surprise' and see if we get salvation or wrath. No...we know now that we have salvation, but there is a very real day coming...the bible teaches in clearly in Matt 25 and Rev 20, when we shall stand before the Throne of God and be 'granted' that verdict which is already sure to us. And then we shall go away into everlasting life or torment, depending on which.

"WE" is totally subjective.

Lumping ALL together as WE...
When WE APPLIES exclusively to particular people.

Trying to make this issue a "Well, I already HAVE salvation" issue, is misleading and totally beside the point of the orginal argument.

The texts in question are speaking of that final 'determining'...everlasting life, or everlasting wrath.

The Everylasting IS:
WITH or WITHOUT God.

There is nothing in said texts, to suppose this 'wrath' must be a time of horrific chaos upon the earth, especially when spoken of in juxtaposition with 'everlasting life'.

You seem to be comparing:
Everlasting life "OR" Everlasting Wrath, as A choice of THIS or THAT.

I said no such thing, nor agree with that.

The final result for NOT WE.....but rather EVERY individual IS:
LIFE forever WITH GOD
OR
VOID of LIFE and FOREVER WIThOUT GOD

I wonder if you realise that in a way you're actually helping me build my argument.

Not at all.

Yes...our salvation IS in Christ and him alone. This is all and only what the bible teaches in terms of salvation and rescue. And when it teaches of 'escaping wrath' it teaches it in direct harmony with our salvation. In other words....our escaping the wrath of God IS our salvation.
I would say Salvation and Wrath are connected, but not how you are presenting it.

It is the securing of our soul and the escape from the second death. Physical suffering or death means nothing to those eternally secure in Christ.

ORDER, ORDER, ORDER.
Gods Word, and what God does is VERY ORERLY.....for Each Individual person.

Every person IS AN INDIVIDUAL, and what APPLIES to ONE Person, doesn't necessarily APPLY to another. INDIVIDUALS have FREEWILL to make their OWN CHOICES. I am not responsible for what ANY Other person chooses.

What another Chooses, What I Choose....and what EITHER OF US can EXPECT to be the RESULT of our Choices, IS clearly Revealed IN Scripture.

So...when you come to say things like "It's God's plan that I be lifted up above the destruction upon the Earth"....I ask...where's the bible verse for that?

It is a STUDY of multiple Verses. The Teaching IN Scripture, According to WHAT "YOU" do, and then WHAT "APPLIES to YOU".

I have the bible verses that say my soul is secure from God's wrath, that the second death will never touch me. I have the verses that say I will be persecuted, hated, killed. I have the verse that shows Christ praying to the Father to not take us out of the world. But I just don't have the verses that show us flying on out of here when things get bad. For many of our brothers and sisters, things are already bad.

For Me. Verses DO NOT Save me.
Scripture INFORMS ME of KNOWLEDGE.
God INFORMS ME of (His) UNDERSTANDING.

My SOUL "WAS" Corrupt.
It is the Lord who "SAVED" my SOUL "FROM" Corruption.
WHY?
My belief, My Submission TO Him.
WHY?
Lords gracious Offering TO me.
HOW?
My repentance, My Vow/Word of Submission.
HOW?
Lords POWER
WHAT?
RESTORED my SOUL, ----> to UNCORRUPT
WHAT?
His POWER
Result?
My SOUL is NO LONGER "APPOINTED" TO His WRATH (ANGER).
My SOUL IS RESTORED.
My SOUL SHALL NOT;
have the Lord ANGRY with me;
be EVER away From the Lord;
be PUNISHED by the Lord;
be WITHOUT the Lord WITH my SOUL;
have the Lord EVER take His Life from my SOUL.

SIMILAR goes for MY "spirit".
MY "spirit", was "NOT RESTORED",
my 'spirit" WAS "BORN AGAIN";
my "spirit" WAS BORN of Gods SEED;
my "new spirit" IS NOT subject to Gods anger;
my "new spirit" FOREVER has the Lord WITH me and me WITH the Lords Spirit;
my "new spirit" is NOT subject to Destruction or Death.

It's a strange argument? Okay...let's see...who is the 'wrath of God' upon and why? And how do we avoid it?

Not strange to me.
What is strange is your argument.

You give Scripture of Gods eternal Salvation, BUT THEN, When it comes Time for the Lord to Begin SHOWING HIS ANGER TOWARD the UNSAVED, and begins SEPARATING the Saved and Born Again.....FROM the UN-saved, and UN-born again...for some reason YOU THINK
His method for SEPARATING...is NOT Taught or Agreeable with you.

So, God's wrath is upon those who do not obey the Son, who are ungodly and unrighteous. And we are saved from God's wrath by the blood of Christ. So...how is it that my argument that "we are saved from the 'wrath of God' by salvation; by the blood of Christ,not by being Raptured away from the danger zone when the wrath goes down"...so strange? Is it not biblical?

You confuse DIVISION with SEPARATION.

DIVISION is "NOW", and has been since the Beginning.

Jesus UPPED the "DIVISION".
OT men KEPT their ALLEGIENCE TO GOD, by and through the Law and Works.
2,000 + years ago JESUS OFFERED men SALVATION "NOW", "WITHOUT" the Law, "WITHOUT" Works....and Solely ON ....
A mans EFFORT to Learn and Believe.
The Learning & Believing man Receiving FAITH "from the Lord"
A mans Heartfelt SUBMISSION of his Belief and gained Faith.
And the Lords ACCEPTANCE of the mans CONFESSION.
And the Lords POWER to "restore" the mans soul and "quicken" the mans spirit and Forever: BY HIS POWER ........KEEP the man Unto Himslf, and "SEPARATE" that man (soul and spirit AND BODILY "from" ALL OTHERS who REJECTED HIM.

It's strange to me. I would think that if the doctrine of 'heavenly escape' was indeed a 'thing', that scripture would get a little more specific over it.

It does. You simply do not APPLY to yourself, what ACTUALLY APPLIES.

IF you are saved and born again....WHY would the Lord BE ANGRY WITH YOU?

WHY would the Lord want YOU...to be ON EARTH suffering HIS ANGER, He has prepared for those who REJECT HIM?

The End of Days IS for MEN ON EARTH, who Rejected thee Lord God to experience HIS anger and REVENGE.

Saved and quickened men have been EXPERIENCING the "WRATH OF MEN" for centuries. Believers have been Persecusted, Hated, Tortured, Wrongly Accused, Killed....
BY MEN, for a mans Faith In thee Lord God.

And YOU want to BE ON Earth, WhILE God is angry and punishing and taking vengeance upon men Who Rejected thee Lord God, and persecuted the Fiathful? WHY?

Even the Lord God Himself WILL NOT BE ON EARTH....He will BE ABOVE the Earth PUNISHING the Earth and its Inhabitants.

Those who advocate for it have to duck and weave pretty hard, to my way of thinking.

I find your comments "duck and weave" and others comments, as if... Your disbeliefs are justified by your aloof comments.

Others were aloof about Gods Anger of mens Disbelief IN HIM, and His warning of a Great Flood for those WHO rejected Him.

Few were saved In that Great day of Gods Destruction UPON the Earth...

Gods Great Day of Destruction is COMING AGAIN....IF you choose to REMAIN ON EARTH; God is JUST, we all get what we CHOOSE.

Scripture has foretold of "another" Great time of Destruction...when the Saved shall BE 'LIKE NOAH"; LIFTED UP ABOVE THE EARTH, out of harms way of the Lord Destruction UPON the Earth.

FYI...FEW were saved in Noah's Day.
While the Destruction was first BY WATER...the Second shall Be by FIRE...and again FEW will be Saved.

They have to ignore Christ's 'do not take them out of this world'.

WHO is "THEM"?

Unbelievers?
Jews who do not believe in Christ the Messiah?
Christians who believe in thee Lord God?
Christians who believe but have not Confessed belief?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Of course I know how misunderstood Christianity is, but making up new names for us is not going to help.
And...your 'definition', whatever that may be, is so much clearer?
If it 'baffles you' to hear the term "In Christ", then you haven't read Paul at all, and that is distressing. And if you aren't aware that there are "fake Christians" you are behind the 8-ball, cause half the world knows it. It's sad and a bad witness and plenty will say "Lord, Lord" at the end, but that is just how things are.
As the Church, it is our job to do our best to walk as Christ walked: reach those lost (even in Church) and be Christ's witness and representative on earth. We'll never be perfect at it, but we should never stop trying, because each soul is precious and loved by God.


Unfortunately I don't hold the patent on silly remarks, or natural understanding. What I am aware of, however, is that if we, as fleshly people, don't constantly bring our ideas and doctrines back to scripture, things spiral away from God really quickly. So...if "looking for proof" from the bible is too far out there for you, or seems unreasonable or...how did you put it...'ignorant'...then dude...I think that's on you.



Then goodness know what on earth you were implying. That was the best I could wring from that...ah...pearl of wisdom, you tossed out. It made little sense and had no biblical backing in any form. So, I'm happy to let it slide into the waters of oblivion.



"Confucius say...."
I've never really been interested in fancy sayings that sound marvelous but fall flat.
The bible is not complicated, it's not disordered. I'm sorry if you can't see the obvious truth blaring out of it in some of these issues, but it's not really a cause to imply I'm stupid or ignorant.

I have no reservations whatsoever about what Scripture teaches, or it's ORDER.

I agree with Scripture.

It is men I disagree with.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Trekson

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For example: In Jeremiah 31:31, we have a verse that, if taken "literally" says that a 'new covenant' must be made with 'literal Israel'. However, when we come to the NT, we see that in Luke 22:20 Jesus, then again in Heb 8, this promise to 'Israel, and the house of Judah', is actually made to the Church.

Actually Naomi, this was a literal prophecy that became literally fulfilled. The NC was indeed made w/ Israel. Don't forget that for the first decade or so there were only Israeli believers. Prophecy fulfilled literally. The Gentiles became heirs to the same covenant but it came to Israel first. It' also not completely fulfilled until Heb. 8:11 happens at the beginning of the millennium.
 
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Taken

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Well then. It's now completely obvious, isn't it? God's church is going to be stuffed into an ARK and LIFTED above the earth...in the CLOUDS.
Eh gads! Why didn't I EVER see it BEFORE??

Typical. Make up NONSENSE, and then bash your own words with snarky remarks.

Noah and his family were the ONLY PEOPLE SAVED from the FLOOD.

Are you EXPECING another FLOOD, that an ARK would lift you up above the Earth?

Scripture says NO such thing!

How did you NOT GET, the ARK was not THE POINT?

The SAVED being UP ABOVE THE EARTH is the Point!

You Want to REMAIN ON EARTH WHILE satan is given Power to RULE the Earth and Thee Lord God is Destroying the Earth....??

Whoopie...ENJOY!

You should have Learned; in the Days of Gods Great Tribulation UPON the Earth and its inhabitants;
the Saved are NOT Appointed to Gods Wrath, and they themselves SHALL BE LIFTED UP Above the Earth.

If you think you are going to be LIFTED UP in an ARK.....LOL.....you have not learned the truth.

While you Believe you will be ON Earth suffering Gods Wrath...

I shall be WITH my Lord ABOVE the EARTH, "in HIS GLORY", '"Lifted UP", (by an Ark, LOL, no!).....clearly taught, "Lifted UP, by HIS POWER"(SPIRIT) !!

Glory to God,
Taken
 

VictoryinJesus

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No one has addressed Hebrews 12:27-29
In relation to the rapture? “And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.”

2 Thessalonians 2:8
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Matthew 24:25-27
[25] Behold, I have told you before. [26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. [27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

—to remove those things that are shaken.

—that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,...”
 
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CoreIssue

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:rolleyes:
I would LOVE to keep bashing my head against what is the best translation of Tereo Ek is, but to be perfectly up-front and honest with, it's just not worth my time or energy...and I'll tell you why. From my perspective...from the Amillennial view....we are already IN the Tribulation, and sorry, we are clearly being kept IN it. As per Christ's prayer to the Father. As per his promise that in this life we'll have tribulation. As per Rev 7:14...the great multitude from every nation and tongue and tribe, all wearing white robes. This is the great commission at work over the last 2000 years, which will continue until Christ's return.
And honestly, if we're talking open ears, heart and mind...I do...I did...that's why I WAS a Dispensationalists, and am no longer. A Pre-trib, Pre-Mil Rapture is not in scripture.

Linguists say it means what I said it means.

Linguists, not so called scholars.
 

Bobby Jo

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..
So you have Christians and Anti-Christ in the world nowadays only, end of story.
An incorrect "story", but certainly a "story".

There ARE Jews, and there ARE Christians (capital "C"), -- and there are a TON of christians (small "c"). And all will continue until the christians (small "c") fall away, leaving the other two until Jesus returns in about 2 1/2 years by my best understanding. And when Jesus returns, the Jews will accept HIM, and THEN all will will be one. -- And THAT's the "end of the story" for GOD's chosen & children.


Bobby Jo
 

CoreIssue

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An incorrect "story", but certainly a "story".

There ARE Jews, and there ARE Christians (capital "C"), -- and there are a TON of christians (small "c"). And all will continue until the christians (small "c") fall away, leaving the other two until Jesus returns in about 2 1/2 years by my best understanding. And when Jesus returns, the Jews will accept HIM, and THEN all will will be one. -- And THAT's the "end of the story" for GOD's chosen & children.


Bobby Jo

Today we are down to the 6th and 7th churches.

The 6th is born again believers in the 7th the apostate pretenders.

There are the Jews prophetic role to play who were not Christians.

At the rapture the 6th will be raptured in the 7th spit out into the trib.

During the tribulation there will be tribulation saints, but they are not church.

At the second coming of Israel will accept Christ and the new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel will begin.

Of all the others some will enter the MK and the rest will die.

During the MK there will be Jew and Gentile. Christ will rule with Israel from Jerusalem.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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An incorrect "story", but certainly a "story".

There ARE Jews, and there ARE Christians (capital "C"), -- and there are a TON of christians (small "c"). And all will continue until the christians (small "c") fall away, leaving the other two until Jesus returns in about 2 1/2 years by my best understanding. And when Jesus returns, the Jews will accept HIM, and THEN all will will be one. -- And THAT's the "end of the story" for GOD's chosen & children.


Bobby Jo
What's a Jew ? you will have to define what you mean in this regard.

Israel is Christianity in fact as Jesus Christ is the King their of.
Now anyone who claims that Jesus Christ is not the King of Israel then they are clearly an Anti-Christ and also clearly certainly not of Israel at all. as how can they be in fact ! ?

As to Judah, well we could call them Jews maybe.

But as to anyone claiming to be a Jew, well that would have to mean that they support the OT and nothing added to, like the Talmud books that only work to bastardise the OT in only leading the true OT faithful Jews astray with such insane works of satanic madness.

When one understands that the Jews have always had a to deal with Satanic grubs working to undermine them and enslaving them in mans works all through there history, now one can identify such in many of the history and when one understands such workings one can clearly see they don't have a hope, they are lost ! fact is if it was not for the he Prophets and one that is the Son of God, what hope do they have to reject him, Nothing !
If the world is going to turn their backs on Jesus Christ and come to the so called Jews like is being peddled full on nowadays, it will be hell on earth lead by Satanic foolish morons, yes the Talmud will rule and give hope to the Greenies so they can go ahead with their plan and wipe out 80% of the worlds people to save mother earth, the Talmud are total full on totally Satanist, there are no other Satanist that can match them, not even the moronic Greens that they created or the Socialist foundations that they created or the Communist that they created or the Nazis that they created, they sowed the seed for all such 3rd rate delusions that fools swallow, they played Capitalist for the demented fools that they can be, they pit one against another so the people are too involved in what the Talmud have set in motion that the people can not see who or what it is that is truly behind it all. hey they own 90% of the media and they are pissing in your ear 24/7 and you think that they are your friend when they are truly playing you for a fool.

Some bastard political mob can say out right that they are all for wiping out 80% of the worlds people and the media let this madness just slide by ! I would think that the media should be down their digging out such people and exposing them for what they truly are.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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We have the media peddling about the horror of the Nazis all the time, but are they truly genuine about such things, no they are not ! problem is that they are trying to indoctrinate you and not educate you at all.
I came across his indoctrinating hog wash back in my school days, I knew more about WW2 than the teacher did in grade 6, they were only indoctrinating us in boring dribble, but when I asked why this or that happened I want to see it under a microscope in detail not just dribble that idiots or fools are happy with, my dad's mum and dad were going to kill themselves and all their children if the Nazis won, they had planed what they were going to do. because they had a Jewish Blood line.
The Talmud so called Zionist Jews were in cahoots with the Nazis and anyone who recons they were not is a fool, they wanted to wipe out the true Jews that were a threat to them, because they knew who they were better than anyone did, the Talmud play their cards real well and they did bring true Jews to the State and the true Jews were in horror that the Zionist flag had that Star on it.

Every worthy Christian should know what St Stephen said about that Star truly represents in Acts 7.
Ever wondered why we do not have such a Star in Christianity ?
Most Christians do not know that he Cross is worthless unless it has Jesus on it, such a cross is a bad thing in fact, if you have read the Bible you would know what it says that that truly is. but with Jesus on it well that is a total different story. but sadly some don't like the Jesus on the cross, they think that it's a done deal and that the cross has just power of it's self some how, fact is that with God their is no done deals ever, God never makes deals, you obey or you don't. only Satan does deals. we see this at work when Jesus was talking to the Devil and in the end Jesus used the OT against the Devil and then told him to be gone.
People make out that Jesus defeated the Devil ? is the Devil dead ! no Jesus just pointed him out for what he truly was and the bastard had no power over Jesus at all. and we if we abide in Jesus we can deal with such temptations because one can see them for what they truly are.
Back in my school days the teacher would say that Hitler was a very bad man straight up, well ok but fact is there is a lot more to it than that, by peddling that bad man crap it does not educate anyone, fact is he was not seen to be a bad man at all by millions and it's the same with the Devil and his Satanist buddy's, they all come across as good people as well, but it's in their works that exposes them and that's what one has to perception to comprehend or you are at a lost to the gravity of such. it's better to be educated on a subject than to be ignorant.

Hey how's this were you educated as to what really goes on in depth totally when you lend money to buy your first house, do you have a handle on what it truly all is 100% without any doubt at all. how about the small print in many things like insurance, now how many just sign away ? Voting can come with a catch attached. now who is it that try's to peddle such deceptions ?
 

Naomi25

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Before I get into this, I have to say sorry if I don't get to all your posts or questions. I'm sort of really busy at the moment and finding it hard to find the time to spend here.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, so I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, nor that Christ takes His Church to Heaven to live for a thousand years while fleshy Israel re-lives a fleshy kingdom on earth. But there is enough Scripture to show there will be a literal, physical sanctuary setup in Jerusalem on earth when Jesus returns. And like I said before, David's throne which our Lord Jesus is to inherit when He returns, has always been an earthly throne. This is why we have many passages about our Lord Jesus presently sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne.
Dispensationalists or no, I think a point has still been missed. Christ IS David's heir. No one can deny that. And so, the question then becomes, does he only truly inherit that status when he sits on that 'earthly' throne? The answer must be no. And biblically, we see it supported. Christ established a Kingdom in his first coming (Matt 12:28), told those who would hear that his Kingdom was NOT of this world (John 18:36), took his place on the throne next to God when he ascended in glory and is now above all other powers and authorities(Eph 1:20-22). And upon his return, he will defeat the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:26).
Now...will Jesus have a literal throne on literal earth? I suppose he will. But it will be the new earth, in the "Age to Come". In "this age", everything in scripture points to Christ, as David's heir, ruling right now, in full legitamcy, from where he is. His seat of power is such that it extends over all the earth, thus, sitting in a literal palace or temple in a literal throne in a literal city, holds no sway over him....his seat of power is heaven, and he is "above all rule, all authority, over every name".


And I have to disagree with you about what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15...

Paul was very specific there that our flesh bodies of corruption must put on incorruption, AND our mortal (soul) must put on immortality in order to have eternal life in Christ Jesus. That will happen for Christ's elect He mentioned as the "resurrection of life", but not for those of the "resurrection of damnation" that are also raised on that day of His coming.

Ps 110:1-2
110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

KJV


If Christ's Kingdom has already come, i.e., that all His enemies have already been made His footstool, then when is this going to happen?

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV


Since when has Christ's elect ever had the "synagogue of Satan" come and worship Jesus at their feet???


That "synagogue of Satan" represents the chiefs of Satan's servants here on earth, even for today. Where is it they are bowing to worship Christ at His elect's feet??

I disagree...I think there is a far more simple reading of such a passage: these persecutors saw themselves as Jews...God's people...and as "God's beloved people" they could do no wrong. We know they persecuted the Christians horribly. Christ's message to his Church is this: be strong, be patient, soon these Jews will know that to be a 'son of the promise'...a true Jew, they must love me, as I love you. They will know I love you, and they will kneel before you just as the Gentiles once kneeled before them (Is 45:14, 49:23). And history tells us that this, indeed has happened. Christians have supported the Jews in numerous ways over the years. And as more and more Jews come to Christ, we see this promise come true...they truly acknowledge that God loves us...they are provoked to jealousy and moved into action to know their Messiah!

Zechariah 14 shows leftovers of the nations that came up against Jerusalem being required to come to Jerusalem and worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles, from year to year.

With those Scripture proofs of Christ's literal future reign over His enemies here on earth, it's awful difficult to proclaim the wicked are judged and destroyed on the day of His return.

Except I don't proclaim the wicked are judged and destroyed on the day of his return...the bible does. It proclaims it clearly and openly.
 

Naomi25

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Yes, the unsaved will have resurrection bodies as well; but still with mortal souls subject to the "second death". How can you even read Rev.20 and bypass the concept of the "first resurrection" and the "second death" as given there?
Again, sorry, I'm not quite sure of your point. Do you mean, with their "mortal soul" and the "second death", that they indeed cease to be at that second death?

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

KJV

What would a "resurrection of damnation" entail?

Well, we know what a 'resurrection' means. It means a raising of the dead. Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 explained in detail the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly", a body of incorruption. What you apparently don't understand is Ecclesiastes 12:5-7:

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.


7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

KJV

At flesh death (the first death), our flesh body is separated from our spirit. Our flesh material body goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our spirit, which our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.10:28 includes our 'soul', goes back to God Who gave it.

If you believe this "spirit" here in verse 7 is only about an animate spirit that even plants have, then it would mean when you die your soul, your personality, your id, all of it, is gone forever! That is exactly how the "synagogue of Satan" wants you to think of it, but their's is not the meaning. There literally is a "silver cord" linking our spirit-soul with our flesh body, even now as we breath. We are made up of 3 parts, a flesh body, a spirit image, and a soul. When our flesh dies, our spirit body image housing our soul is revealed in the Heavenly dimension. Our spiritual body is only an outward body image without flesh. It looks like flesh, feels like it, but is of that other dimension. It is the type body of the angels, and has the image of a young man (see Gen.19 about the two angels sent to Lot). The unsaved will have that body also. But their soul will still... be liable to die, like Paul showed with the Greek word for "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:54.
Ok...I was with you and agreed with pretty much everything up until the end. What happens if the the unsaved person's soul dies? Is that it for them? What happens to all the passages that speak of eternal punishment? How could their punishment be eternal if their soul dies and that's it for them?

Since God's Word declares there will... be a "resurrection of damnation", that means they will be raised from the dead also. Those who remain on earth and are alive must go through the 'change' at the twinkling of an eye that Paul mentioned. Paul even said we shall not all sleep, but we ALL shall be changed (1 Cor.15:51). That includes the unsaved alive on earth too. I mean you pointed to the sheep being separated from the goats at Christ's second coming? There it is, the "resurrection of damnation" that also happens when Jesus returns (John 5:28-29).

I do believe that at Christ's return we will see all these events happening more or less at once (within reason...not over a period of weeks or months). And yes, when he comes he does judge both 'sheep and goats'. However, the verses that speak of the 'Rapture', other than 1 Cor 15, make it clear that this event is specifically for those "in Christ". When the 'unsaved' are given bodies that will last an eternity...that is not done at the glorious 'reunion' in the sky of Christ and his body. See Matt 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17.
 

Naomi25

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No, the Scriptures as written did not change, how God touches our understanding by The Holy Spirit at the right time so we can fully... understand is what the difference is. How many times have you struggled with a Scripture, or where many in the Church have struggled with it, until the times came for it to be understood? Remember the OT prophets that Peter spoke of wanting to know about the mystery of Christ. We know that now since our Lord Jesus died on the cross and our Heavenly Father raised Him, and we believed their Testimony. But even His disciples while He was yet with them didn't know that yet. It wasn't time then for it be revealed. Today I believe our Lord's Book of Revelation is pretty much wide open to His servants who study.

And I assure you, Apostle Paul did not change the meaning of "the temple of God" in 2 Thess.2 to mean a spiritual temple. As I have said many times before, the spiritual temple idea by Paul can NEVER, EVER be about a false one corrupting it. Per Paul in Ephesians 2, the spiritual temple is made of a foundation of Christ's Apostles and prophets, with our Lord Jesus as its Chief Cornerstone. Now IF... you think that foundation can be corrupted by any... man, then it would mean you have believed on a false foundation with Jesus not even able to defeat His Own enemies! His Church foundation would be built on a false foundation! An Orthodox Jew who hates Christ Jesus would love... us to believe that baloney, and they will have their reward for teaching such falseness against Christ's Church! Even any believer fallen away trying... to corrupt the true spiritual temple, is simply 'cut off' from it! They do it to themselves by their own unrighteousness. What was it that Jesus will say to those who work iniquity? He will tell them to get away from Him, that He never knew them (Matt.7:22-23).

Well...let's just look at the progression of thought through the NT:

I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. -Matthew 12:6

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body. -John 2:19–21

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. -1 Corinthians 3:16–17

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, or you were bought with a price. -1 Corinthians 6:19–20

What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people. -2 Corinthians 6:16

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. -Ephesians 2:19–22

The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. -Revelation 3:12


So...I shouldn't need to say much, but basically, we have the idea that the Temple of God is...well, Christ. And in our union with Christ, we become the Temple of God. That means that individual Christians, with the Spirit dwelling within us, are the Temple and the Church as a whole, is the Temple. And we see from Revelation that the idea follows through...this image of a person being made a 'pillar' in the temple. It's an image of our union with Christ. Our being "In Christ".
From this point of view, and following this clear line of thinking from the scriptural passages, it's not at all hard to believe some wolf will set himself up in the Church. How many false teachers do we have now? Prosperity teachers? Emergent teachers...maybe even the current Pope.
So, while you are correct in asserting that no corruption could come to Christ, or the Spirit that dwells within us, that's not really the direction this is taking. If someone is to set himself up as a leader "proclaiming himself to be God", it would be in the Church, not to oneself, and as we know, the church is not foolproof against corruption.

Your terribly wrong with going against Bible prophecy about the gathering of His Church to go to Jerusalem and reign at His return. By refusing that you have just omitted much of future Bible prophecy.

Have I? And yet, I don't really see much of that 'future' bible prophecy presenting itself. I see a lot of NT promises telling me what will happen at Christ's return. And I see a few OT prophecies that people seem to mistake rather badly in light of Christ's first coming...and I see a lot of opinions. So...I suppose if it's all the same, I'll keep mine. I've done a fair bit of bible study and praying to get where I am and feel the Spirit's hand on where I've arrived at. I can live with that, even if you can't.

It's like I had said, you cannot pull a single Bible verse out of its context and apply a totally different meaning to it. It's done all the time in modern socialist Churches and beth-avens. Some preachers will pull one verse from The Bible and preach an hour on it never actually getting around to its meaning within... the flow of where's it's written. Many preachers out there preaching a business, not The Word of God. And your idea that since now we have The New Testament, then it means what was written in The Old Testament Books is now changed (with your real intent being that there's no longer need to study it), then there will be a lot of things to occur in our near future you will definitely be wondering what's going on.
Sure...that's totally what I'm suggesting. Take any verse in the OT, and make it say whatever you want now it's NT times. Go crazy! :rolleyes:
Look, here's what I mean:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.” -
Malachi 4:5–6


This is in the OT...and everyone fully expected Elijah...who didn't actually die, to come back from heaven. And yet, when we get to the NT, what does Jesus tell his Disciples:

And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist. -Matthew 17:9–13

I don't have time to show you what I had already shown, including the Scripture. Go through my posts and you will see. If you think Christ's LITERAL reign over ALL nations is happening now already, then I can't help you, because you would have to omit a good amount of Bible Scripture, especially the Scriptures I've covered to you already. And since you think His future thousand years reign of Rev.20 is a pet theory, then I wonder what His reaction towards you is going to be when He returns.

Likewise, if you are willing to totally ignore the verses that tell us that Christ IS ruling and reigning now....I ask you...over what... then I suppose we are at an impasse.
 

Naomi25

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Your problem is that you have been indoctrinated into a certain understanding of Bible prophecy (which is essentially to spiritualize everything prophetic), and no matter how much you are shown from Scripture, that mindset does not change.

To you a thousand years can mean whatever anyone wants. But to Christ a thousand years is literally a thousand years, since the Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ (who repeats a thousand year six times to address the naysayers).

Which does not mean that those who take Scripture literally cannot distinguish between metaphors and plain facts. That is just a straw man argument.
I'm sorry, but I can't help but point out how illogical most of what you've just said is. First...no matter "how much I am shown from scripture"? The biggest problem I have with Dispensationalism is that no one seems capable to back anything up with scripture...no matter how many times I outright beg for it. They parrot 'Rapture' and "Tribulation" verses, not really understanding the hows and why's behind the hermeneutics that supposedly got them there, thus leading them to a point where their incapable of truly explaining the big questions that are put to them. And there are...big questions...questions about holes in the doctrine that just don't add up. But instead of engaging in meaningful debate supported by strong scriptural basis and a good grounding in why and how they got there, they fall back on defensiveness and stubborn assurance.

Second, you lecture me about my 'loose' meaning of 1000 years, but in my previous conversations with you and Coreissue, I've discovered that you're happy for a day to be more than a day. You've also aggressively stood by the fact that NO numbers are used symbolically in Revelation, only to turn around and then say...sure they are...just not any of the ones you want to use in that manner....ie: 1000. And all this while completely ignoring Peter when he rather wonderfully points out for us that with God, 1 day is like 1000 years and a 1000 years is like a day....which I find slightly hilarious, given our earlier debate about a day being more than a day, and your stand on the 1000 years.
All in all, I'd say it earns you a solid: :rolleyes:

And last, but wonderfully not least, you point out the fact that literalists can also distinguish between metaphor and plain fact. To which I'd have to say...right back at ya. Us "spiritualizers"(which is a 'strawman argument' in and of itself, just in a term....so misleading!) have never claimed that Revelation is ALL symbolic...that too is a strawman argument.