When to look for the rapture of the church

[Taken]

Where are you going?

Depends on where Jesus IS.
Depends on IF I am physically dead or not.

IF Jesus has descended to the CLOUDS...
IF I am physically alive....
My body, restored soul, quickened spirit;
....shall rise up to the CLOUDS.

IF Jesus has descended to the CLOUDS...
IF I am physically dead....
My restored soul, quickened spirit, shall be in Heaven.
My body shall rise up to the Clouds.
My restored soul, quickened spirit, shall descend from Heaven.
My restored soul, quickened spirit, risen glorified body shall be together with Jesus IN the CLOUDS.

Nobody goes to Heaven unless they die,short of that we living shall be here at His 2nd coming

I have NO expectation of MY BODY, (dead or alive) "GOING" to Heaven.

I have EVERY expectation of MY BODY, (dead) going to an earthly grave.

I have EVERY expectation of MY SOUL, MY SPIRIT going to Heaven, should my BODY physically DIE.

I have EVERY expectation of MY BODY, MY SOUL, MY SPIRIT, being UP IN the CLOUDS WITH MY Lord, IN THE CLOUDS....
"BEFORE"
The Lamb of God,
"BEGINS"
the end of days Tribulation.

Do you not see that the plaques mirror those that fell on Egypt? Were the Israelites raptured? No they were not ,they were protected by the blood.

Were "THOSE" days, the "END" days of this WORLD? No.

Our blood now is in Christ

Actually God REQUIRES the "BLOOD" of Every Man.
Actually the "BLOOD" of Every man IS that mans "BODILY LIFE".

I have already GIVEN MY LIFE, to the Lord.
He has already RESTORED MY SOUL.
He has already QUICKENED MY SPIRIT.

MY LIFE IS HID IN THE RISEN LIVING Lord.
I am IN HIM. He is IN Me.
When He DESCENDS TO THE CLOUDS,
He SHALL rise UP my Body to Him.
I shall BE WITH HIM, body, soul, spirit;
IN tHe CLOUDS....

The Lord "COMES" TO EARTH, "WITH" His saints.

Those remaining ON Earth, shall SEE HIM, COMING and being WAILING and CRYING....

Are YOU going to BE ON Earth, WAILING, (crying in PAIN and ANGER), when YOU SEE the Lord Coming?

I'm NOT. I shall BE WITH Him, IN joy and peace and comfort.

Psalms 91:7 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand, But it shall not come nigh thee."

What about Psalms 91:7 ?

Which are you? One of the thousands that fall, or not?

And what is your point of posting Psalms 91:7?

I already KNOW thousands shall fall, It is an event of the End days Wrath and Tribulation.
It does not apply to me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Focusing on this,some say Matthew 24 is written to the Jew's,my question to you,do Jew's get it both ways?Meaning if they convert,they will be raptured,if not,they will be saved anyway?

Do you see how absurd that sounds?

Do you know how absurd it sounds for you to CLAIM yourself a Believer, but yet challenge Gods Plan for His People Israel to be Absurd?

UNTIL "ALL" men "who SHALL be gathered together UNTO God", "ARE GATHERED TOGETHER"......... MEN are Divided in WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

MEN....."WHO" are Saved and Born Again NOW; ARE "CONVERTED" IN "CHRIST".
THEY BELONG "TO" CHRIST.

MEN...."WHO" are "GODS PEOPLE" "ISRAEL", and have "Continued" in belief and faith "IN GOD", "remain" Gods People.

They have NO teaching or Expectation to RISE UP to Christ Jesus, "IN THE CLOUDS", WITH Christ's Church! WITH Christ.

What do you think THE END of DAYS "WRATH OF THE LAMB" is ABOUT?
Christ Jesus, calling UP to Him, MEN WHO REJECTED HIM?

What do you think God is SENDING, "HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL" (144,000 Jews and Two WITNESSES to EARTH FOR ) in The End Days?

To PREACH "Christ Jesus" to Gentiles?
Preaching of "Christ Jesus" to Gentiles has been going on for 2,000 + years.

The JEWS (for the most part), have KEPT their allegience TO GOD, and REJECTED Christ Jesus.

Do you BELIEVE, GOD does not Remember His People ISRAEL? And have a PLAN, (you apparently think absurd) to SAVE and QUICKEN and BRING His People Israel UNTO HIM?

It is those "CONVERTED" in Christ Jesus, who believe BOTH IN GOD and CHRIST Jesus, who are RAPTURED UP to Jesus in the Clouds.
"THEY" are "Christ's Church", already Prepared to be Redeemed, WHEN Jesus descends TO THE CLOUDS.

"ALL" others, (including Gods People Israel), are SUBJECT TO, "portions of the end of days Wrath".

AS the Tribulation of the end days increases,
GODS PEOPLE ISRAEL are being PREACHED CHRIST Jesus. Those who CONVERT, become "soul saved", "spirit quickened", and their BODIES KILLED. WHEN ALL are Killed, who SHALL convert unto Christ Jesus, TOGETHER, their "souls and spirits" shall RISE UP TO HEAVEN.....TO God.

Their BODIES, raised UP, After the end days of the Great Tribulation.

BODIES did not COME "from" Heaven, nor Return to Heaven.

Souls and Spirits WITHIN a man Come from Heaven and "IF" a man BELONGS TO GOD, BELONGS TO CHRIST....his soul and spirit shall remain alive and his body raised up "according to GODS PLAN", and occupy the NEW earth in a NEW BODY, saved soul, quickened spirit.

Some NEW bodies, restored saved souls, quickened spirits.....

SHALL occupy the earth, IN Christ's Kingdom, during the 1,000 year reign...

Then satan is loosed to again reek havoc upon MORTALS occupying the earth.

Another Division, Another Separation...among men Who CHOOSE or Reject Christ Jesus...

The FINAL Evidence, Books, Judgement, Second Death, Division, Separation, of Evil and Wickedness, OF Angels, OF Men...
OFF the Earth commences.

Evil and Wicked go to Hell.
Saved and Quickened remain ON Earth...
And a New Heaven Opens UP its Presenst Separation FROM earth, that there shall be
NO MORE a division between Heaven and Earth. ALL on earth and heaven SHALL have faith IN Thee ONE Lord God Almighty, and He be their God.

FOR THAT ^^ to Become Manifested...
There shall FIRST BE...
Fallings Away, Inclusions, Divisions, Redeemings, Claimings, Separations, Punishments, Blessings,
........According TO Gods Plan, .....
for that which "applies to" every single man.

And no I do not believe Gods Plan is absurd.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

Depends on where Jesus IS.
Depends on IF I am physically dead or not.

IF Jesus has descended to the CLOUDS...
IF I am physically alive....
My body, restored soul, quickened spirit;
....shall rise up to the CLOUDS.

IF Jesus has descended to the CLOUDS...
IF I am physically dead....
My restored soul, quickened spirit, shall be in Heaven.
My body shall rise up to the Clouds.
My restored soul, quickened spirit, shall descend from Heaven.
My restored soul, quickened spirit, risen glorified body shall be together with Jesus IN the CLOUDS.



I have NO expectation of MY BODY, (dead or alive) "GOING" to Heaven.

I have EVERY expectation of MY BODY, (dead) going to an earthly grave.

I have EVERY expectation of MY SOUL, MY SPIRIT going to Heaven, should my BODY physically DIE.

I have EVERY expectation of MY BODY, MY SOUL, MY SPIRIT, being UP IN the CLOUDS WITH MY Lord, IN THE CLOUDS....
"BEFORE"
The Lamb of God,
"BEGINS"
the end of days Tribulation.
....

But our Lord Jesus' destination from Heaven is out of the clouds to upon the earth, specifically touching down upon the Mount of Olives outside of Jerusalem where He ascended to The Father from:

Acts 1:9-12
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

Zech 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

That is the same day when He will gather His Church. It is not before the time of great tribulation He warned us about. It will actually end that tribulation.

Matthew 24 shows the Church being gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt.24:29-31).

Mark 13 shows the Church being gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:24-27).

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed this same gathering of the Church when Jesus comes. Paul said don't worry about the 'asleep' brethren that have already died, because Jesus will bring those with Him when He comes. The Matt.24 version covers those. Then Paul said those of us who remain alive when Jesus comes will be "caught up" to Him in the 'air', which is covered by the Mark 13 version. Thus, those two differences in Christ's Olivet discourse is another proof that our Lord Jesus was speaking to His Church while there upon the Mount of Olives, and not to just Jews.

Moreover, those our Lord Jesus spoke to upon the Mount of Olives were all believers... on Him. That right there is enough to prove His discourse is for His Church, and not for the non-believer.


HEAVEN when Jesus comes:

A mistake in thinking many brethren make about the rapture idea, is forgetting about the event of God's consuming fire on that day (2 Peter 3:10-12).

This flesh world will end on that day when Jesus comes. That is what Peter foretold will happen on that "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night" upon the world. No more flesh death will happen right after that. We all, including the unsaved, will be in resurrection type bodies, the "spiritual body", a body of incorruption which Paul proclaimed in 1 Cor.15.

John 5:28-29 by Jesus reveals on the day of His appearing, both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" will occur. That is when the wicked dead are raised, and will have a spiritual body also.

We all... will see Jesus as He is (like Apostle John said). All knees will bow to Him. Jesus said those of the "synagogue of Satan" will even bow at the feet of His elect (Rev.3).

So when that happens, what does it mean for this present material earthly dimension we now live in? When Jesus comes, the veil of this flesh world will be lifted off, for everyone. That is what God's consuming fire which Peter spoke of, will do on earth. It will occur very quickly, fast as a 'twinkling of an eye' per Paul (1 Cor.15). That's the change he was talking about on that day, on the "last trump".

All this means that the heavenly is going to be revealed... right here, on earth, when Jesus comes.

 

[Taken]

But our Lord Jesus' destination from Heaven is out of the clouds to upon the earth, specifically touching down upon the Mount of Olives outside of Jerusalem where He ascended to The Father from:

Jesus descending to the Clouds, is not Jesus Returning to Earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Copperhead]

This flesh world will end on that day when Jesus comes.

Then when does Yeshua reign on the earth with a rod of Iron as per Revelation 2 and Revelation 12? And if He is ruling with a rod of iron per those passages, it would seem that He is having to punish those that get out of line. And what of the redeemed that rule with a rod of iron along side Him as Revelation 2 also states? What would they be ruling over if there is not a kingdom to rule over that includes folks who are not part of the redeemed that are ruling?

If the flesh world will end, then who is Yeshua and the redeemed ruling over with a rod of iron? And there are passages in scripture that show that when the Messiah is ruling, there will still be death and sin in the kingdom. Do we then still have our sin nature in our glorified bodies that we would still rebel against Yeshua?

 

[Davy]

Jesus descending to the Clouds, is not Jesus Returning to Earth.

I didn't say Jesus would descend to the Clouds. That's your idea, and it is not written in God's Word.

Zechariah 14 reveals He will descend to the earth, His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1, like I showed.

Obviously, you're in no shape for an honest conversation.

 

[Bobby Jo]

To be clear:

Daniel 8
3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the river. It had two horns; and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. 4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward; no beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power; he did as he pleased and magnified himself.

20 As for the ram which you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.​

The commentators assert that this "Ram" represents the Medo/Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great. However they couldn't be further from the truth. Cyrus' Empire NEVER had a dual monarchy:

539 - 530 Cyrus the Great
530 - 522 Cambyses
522 - 486 Darius I (Hystaspes)
486 - 465 Xerxes
465 - 423 Artaxerxes I
423 Xerxes II - few weeks
423 Sogdianus - six months
423 - 404 Darius II
404 - 359 Artaxerxes II
359 - 338 Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
338 Arses
338 - 330 Darius III (Codomanus)

Huot, Jean-Louis, Persia I - From the Origins to the Achaemenids, World Publishing Co., NY, 1965-67, pp. 12, 153-156
Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp 353-354, 381-382​

however the Romans did:

46 - 31 BC both Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus or Octavian and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony)
​

The historical record apparently doesn't change the minds of religious people. Their doctrines apparently supersede BOTH Scripture and History, and there's no amount of FACTS that can change their mind. It my be analogous to being brain washed, -- with WILLING PARTICIPANTS. But GOD calls us to "reason" both in our relationship with GOD and man:

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord ...​

... and to "reason" we must use facts, -- not our imagination and not FALSE doctrines!



Bobby Jo

That's what it was supposed to be, and I have fixed it up. But your posts are always good for a laugh.

I guess while you were busy laughing, your false account of history goes unacknowledged. -- I think they call that "Intellectual Dishonesty". But don't don't let that bother you, there are PLENTY of DISHONEST people in "christianity", who haven't quite attained Christianity ...



Bobby Jo

 

[Davy]

Then when does Yeshua reign on the earth with a rod of Iron as per Revelation 2 and Revelation 12? And if He is ruling with a rod of iron per those passages, it would seem that He is having to punish those that get out of line. And what of the redeemed that rule with a rod of iron along side Him as Revelation 2 also states? What would they be ruling over if there is not a kingdom to rule over that includes folks who are not part of the redeemed that are ruling?

If the flesh world will end, then who is Yeshua and the redeemed ruling over with a rod of iron? And there are passages in scripture that show that when the Messiah is ruling, there will still be death and sin in the kingdom. Do we then still have our sin nature in our glorified bodies that we would still rebel against Yeshua?

I recommend you continue Bible study in 1 Corinthians 15 where Apostle Paul described the resurrection, of what type body it is, which he also pointed to with those still alive on earth being changed on the day of Christ's second coming. Then I recommend you look more closely at His Revelation in Revelation 20 where He described the only 'type' death remaining after His return, i.e., a "second death" for the wicked cast into the "lake of fire."

 

[Enoch111]

But don't don't let that bother you, there are PLENTY of DISHONEST people in "christianity", who haven't quite attained Christianity.

Bobby Jo,
You are another one of those obnoxious people who has nothing worthwhile to contribute. I would like to know precisely what was dishonest about my posts. And if you can't show that, you owe me an apology.

 

[Copperhead]

I recommend you continue Bible study in 1 Corinthians 15 where Apostle Paul described the resurrection, of what type body it is, which he also pointed to with those still alive on earth being changed on the day of Christ's second coming. Then I recommend you look more closely at His Revelation in Revelation 20 where He described the only 'type' death remaining after His return, i.e., a "second death" for the wicked cast into the "lake of fire."

you must provide both NT and OT support for any assertion you make. That is the standard set in scripture.

Then who are the 10 virgins of Matthew 25 and the Sheep and Goats, also of Matthew 25? Just a basic reading of the passage implies they are not the redeemed of the church (Body of Messiah)

 

[Bobby Jo]

Bobby Jo,
You are another one of those obnoxious people who has nothing worthwhile to contribute.

The ONLY thing worse than what you accuse, is what you do!

I would like to know precisely what was dishonest about my posts. And if you can't show that, you owe me an apology.

What is the significance of the Medo-Persian Empire in biblical history?
"What is the significance of the Medo-Persian Empire in biblical history?"​

Your citation is FULL of FALSE statements, here's one:

God had pronounced judgment on Babylon, and the kingdom would be divided. By morning, “Belshazzar, king of the Babylonians, was slain, and Darius the Mede took over the kingdom” (Daniel 5:30-31).
​

Pray tell, what Scriptural citation or Historical evidence do you have that the "kingdom would be divided"?!? Yeah, -- there's NONE.

... and another:

Daniel was prominent in the Medo-Persian Empire and a trusted advisor to King Darius. However, after being placed as head of the satraps (governors, of sorts), Daniel was hated by some of them for his quick ascent. They laid a legal trap for Daniel that should have gotten him killed, for he was thrown into the infamous lions’ den. He survived, however, by God’s intervention, and he continued to prophesy, rule, and provide counsel in that foreign land (Daniel 6:28).​

This event was NOT under the Medo/Persian Empire as implied, -- it was STILL under the Babylonian Empire.

In fact, Daniel DIED in the FIRST year of King Cyrus (Ref. Dan. 1:21). And also he was ALVE in the THIRD year of Cyrus, king of the Persians. It's kind of like the riddle: What has four tires and flies? A garbage truck. Solve the FIRST and THIRD years of Cyrus, and then proceed to the rest of the Prophecies of Daniel (especially the 11th Chapter).


Learn a little History. It might help to go a little further toward your understanding of Scripture, but I doubt it. You're too busy accusing those who know the TRUTH! And while YOU want an apology from me, having defended Scripture and History, I don't really expect to receive one from you. And if it doesn't show up. then we call that hypocrisy.



Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

You forgot an important factor beginning at Christ's 2nd coming. And that is His testimony through John about the devil being locked in his pit prison for a thousand years, and death not over yet, because those of the "resurrection of damnation", i.e., the unsaved after Christ's return, will still be subject to death, a spiritual death called the "second death" in Rev.20, which means being cast into the future "lake of fire" when death is finally destroyed.

I think this depends on whether or not Revelation is a book that is meant to be read in chronological order or not. If the events that happen in Rev 20 happen in time after Christ's physical return in Rev 19, then yes, there is a problem.
However, I don't believe Revelation is supposed to be read in a chronological manner, for many reasons. Rev 20 is not something that happens 'after' Rev 19. There are many things that lead us to this conclusion, and to go through them all would take up too much time and space here, but I'll point out a few things briefly: Rev shows Christ's return happening several times (theophany: Rev 6:16-17; Rev 11:15; Rev 19:11). We also see several 'world ending events' (sky rolling up like a scroll, great comet/stars falling to earth, mountains and Islands fleeing away) and yet in the next chapters, there they all are again! Sky, mountains, etc.
And then we comes to these verses:

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:28–29


The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. -Luke 10:17–19

Jesus is telling his Disciples, and any who would listen, that the Kingdom had come. That Satan was indeed bound, and powerless to stop the spread of the gospel. And I think we all must agree that these two verses fall before Christ's second coming.

Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

That final destruction of 'death' happens after... that "thousand years" period of Rev.20, not at Christ's return.

And yet, we see, in Matthew 25, that this judgement, of both just and unjust, happening AT Christ's second coming. If, as you say, that happens 'after' the 1000 years, would that not actually be more evidence that the bible points to the Millennial Kingdom being now?



The Final Judgment
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left....And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–33

Apparently you don't realize that Apostle Paul taught this also in 1 Corinthians 15...

1 Cor 15:24-26
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
KJV

Paul gave a condition there before death is destroyed and the end comes. It's dependent upon Christ's reign over all His enemies first. And that's exactly what Rev.20 reveals, Christ and His elect reigning over all nations, including the unsaved. That certainly has not happened during this present world, for that will only begin with His future return.

Actually, the condition that is usally sat down, is by Dispensationalists who seem to demand that 'ruling and reigning' must be a certain something that the bible doesn't lay claim to. Its iteresting, actually, because it's the same mistake the Jews made at Christ's first coming. The all missed him as the Messiah, because they had the mistaken notion that the Messiah had to be this earthly, political ruler. And yet Jesus confounded them, by saying that his Kingdom was not of this world. By teaching that one overcame by submitting and serving.

So...perhaps you might say that 1 Cor 15 says he must rule over all his enemies first, which has not happened...but...let's look at it, and other scripture:


that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22


who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22


But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” -1 Corinthians 15:23–27



When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:54

What shall we make of these scripture? Well...it's actually pretty simple. Jesus has been exalted now. He rules and reigns now. Everything has been subjected to him now.
When will he exercise final and absolute control and 'ending' of these things? At his return. And it is at his return that death is defeated and he delivers the Kingdom to the Father. You see...there is nothing vague about 1 Cor 15. It doesn't give us a condition of death before it is destroyed. It outright tells us that "the end" will come AT Christ's return and that this is the moment he delivers the Kingdom. This means that the conditions will be met...it tells us what they are: all rule and authority defeated, last enemy defeated. And it all ties back to "at his coming", which is also then tied to the moment we receive our new 'imperishable' bodies. You cannot unravel it.

 

[Naomi25]

Here's more info from Apostle Paul many have looked over...

1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

"corruptible" = phthartos = perishable, our flesh
"incorruption" = aphthrsia = incorruptibility, unending existence
"mortal" = thnetos = liable to die
"immortality" = athanasia = deathlessness

Most often, that passage is not taken back to the Greek to discover those 4 different meanings by Paul. It is usually misinterpreted to mean only for the Church, and only involving the resurrection of life unto Christ Jesus. But Paul is covering the "resurrection of damnation" there also, because he pointed to TWO separate changes being required to be of the resurrection of life in Jesus. And it's a simple matter, because our Lord Jesus in The Gospel showed the difference between a believer on Him being "born again" (i.e., means born from above in the Greek), vs. the unsaved as being like dead men walking around, because of having dead souls inside them that do not believe on Him.

That's 4 different words above that Apostle Paul used which have 4 different meanings. There's TWO different changes involved there for death to be swallowed up in victory. The flesh must put on incorruptibility (a "spiritual body" Paul taught there which is the resurrection body), and one's mortal, liable to die soul must put on immortality through Faith on Christ Jesus. The unsaved will not be in the latter condition when Jesus returns. Their souls/spirit will still be subject to the "second death" of Rev.20, which is the future casting into the "lake of fire". That's the idea of the "resurrection of damnation" our Lord Jesus spoke of in John 5:28-29 when He returns.

I'm not really sure of your point here. Are you saying that Paul is covering both redeemed and unredeemed here? That, in essence, even unsaved people will have a new, everlasting body as well?
Because...sure, I'm not arguing the fact that unsaved people will 'last forever' in their judgement. But, equally, I don't think this point helps your argument along.
Either way (or both) this passage teaches that AT Christ's return, death, as it stands now, will be no more. That still means that death, the final enemy, will be defeated, AT Christ's return.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That event is for after Christ's second coming.

Indeed it is, but not in the manner you believe. The NT coming of Christ changed how we read OT prophecies significantly. Just as we see Paul referring to the Church as the 'temple of God', we also see the feasts of Israel being fulfilled in Christ. Indeed, we know that Christ IS the new, true Israel. John 11:52 (and 4:35, 10:16; Rev 5:9, 7:9) makes it clear that Jesus is gathering his people. However, his gathering does not involve geographical relocation to Israel or Jerusalem. Jesus said that his being lifted up by his death on the cross is what "will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). So, basically, Jesus, not the 'promised land', is now the focus of this long-awaited 'ingathering'. Thus, the true fulfillment of Zech 14:16 is not people flocking to a particular earthly city to worship Christ. That rather misses the point of the torn curtain.

If one understands what God showed through Isaiah, then they should realize that our Heavenly Father has always been in control, and He uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the wicked and rebellious. Satan has no power of his own. God showed how Satan is metaphorically like whipping stick to be thrown into the fire when done punishing with it. So in reality, our Lord Jesus Who is God, has always been in control too. So that verse does not disprove His times and seasons that He showed us in His Word. You can't pull out a single verse that must align with the rest of His Word and try to apply a totally different meaning to it.

I'm....not entirely sure what you're trying to argue here. It sounds like a cirular sort of argument...perhaps you could clarify?

Well, what Paul showed in 1 Cor.15:23-28 contains a 'condition'. I pointed it out above; it's that Jesus must first reign over all His enemies. Then the end will come. Technically, His future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved is part of this world timing, the new heavens and new earth time will not begin until His reign over the wicked is over, and those who reject Him are finally cast into the "lake of fire". And it is impossible to say our Lord Jesus is de facto reigning over all His enemies today in this present world, even though some don't care how foolish their false theories look.

You might have pointed out your thoughts on it, but I showed bible verses showing that Christ IS, in fact, doing those things now. So...not impossible, nor foolish.
But, you know, feel free to try and find some bible verses that show otherwise...

The Millennial Kingdom is NOT now; like I said, Paul gave a condition in 1 Cor.15 for that Millennial Kingdom to manifest, and it's Christ and His elect reigning over ALL His enemies, which of course has not happened yet in this world, and won't until His return. This is why Zechariah 14 even shows those left of the nations will have come up against Israel on the last day of this world will be required to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him from year to year.

And again, while it was nice to hear your pet theories, I'll take what the bible clearly states. When it says he rules NOW over ALL, I believe it. When it says his return will bring the end and he'll deliever the Kingdom to the Father, I believe it. When it says that this time shows his reign over ALL enemies, including death, has been completeled, I believe it.
I'm not sure how you can dodge or miss such blatant, outright statements....

 

[Naomi25]

Disagree with pretty much how you see Reveleations.

Glory to God,
Taken

I can live with that.

 

[Copperhead]

The NT coming of Christ changed how we read OT prophecies significantly.

Only in terms of seeing Yeshua in the OT. Unless something is shown to be meant as an allegory or is clearly new revelation "mystery" never before revealed, it is not proper to allegorize passages to fit one's idea of what the NT says. The is nothing in the NT or OT to show that Zechariah 14 is meant to be anything other than viewed literally.

Isaiah 65 implies that there will be death in the millennial kingdom. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 show us that sin will still be a problem in the millennial kingdom. And Zechariah 14 regarding those that will not go up to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles. And sin becomes such a problem that when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment a major rebellion that the nations will try to throw off the reign of Yeshua. Revelation 20 talks of that as does Psalms 2.

And all that fits into the statement in Revelation 2, Revelation 12, and Psalms 2 that Yeshua (and the Body of Yeshua) would rule with a rod of iron. Unless there is some getting out of line, there is no reason to rule with such severity.

I am not sure how one can allegorize all that away without taking illegal substances and having a serious mind altering experience. The only way to limit stepping all over one's self regarding scripture interpretation of these things is to follow the prescription given in the Torah which requires the testimony of two or more witnesses to establish a matter. The Bereans gave us the model for following that and were commended by the HS. They searched the scripture (OT) daily to see if what Paul (NT) taught them was true. So any matter requires equal, independent support from both OT and NT. Just like a court of law. One testimony does not conform to the other testimony, it either does or does not support the other testimony.

 

[Naomi25]

I have NO expectation to BE ON earth during the Lambs Wrath UPON the earth, or during the WOES, or during Gods Wrath UPON the earth.

I quoted 42 months and 42 months. If you think that is drawn out and yourself not in agreement, you can counsil God on His plan.

Can't speak for you, however, the last half of that verse does not APPLY TO ME. Nor does any portion of any verse APPLY TO ME, that has ALREADY been Accomplished.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but "to obtain" salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Thessalonians 5:9

~ "TO OBTAIN"...would not apply to ANY person who is ALREADY saved and born again.

Again, you seem to miss the point. Do we have salvation now? Of course. We are indeed 'in Christ' now, with all that implies. However, do we have everything that Christ's death on the cross accomplished...for us, or for the whole creation? No. We see this quite clearly in scripture:

Future Glory
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. -Romans 8:18–25

The bible is a story of redemption...of God's plan to redeem mankind and show his glory. And this story keeps pointing us to an inevitable conclusion, where what Christ won on the cross will either be bought to final victory in those who love him (salvation, glorification) or in ultimate judgement and wrath on those who reject him.
When I say that these passages that talk of 'wrath' in terms of 'salvation and wrath', I am not saying that it speaks of 'obtaining salvation' in the form of...we get to the end and open up our 'kinder surprise' and see if we get salvation or wrath. No...we know now that we have salvation, but there is a very real day coming...the bible teaches in clearly in Matt 25 and Rev 20, when we shall stand before the Throne of God and be 'granted' that verdict which is already sure to us. And then we shall go away into everlasting life or torment, depending on which.
Trying to make this issue a "Well, I already HAVE salvation" issue, is misleading and totally beside the point of the orginal argument. The texts in question are speaking of that final 'determining'...everlasting life, or everlasting wrath. There is nothing in said texts, to suppose this 'wrath' must be a time of horrific chaos upon the earth, especially when spoken of in juxtaposition with 'everlasting life'.

Again, You seem Unknowing, "WHAT PEOPLE" will be saying...."peace and safety"...and "WHY" and "NOT WHISKED AWAY" <--- paraphrasing "your words".

FYI, "I shall not be among "those people".
That verse does not APPLY to me.

"MY" salvation in Christ, is because He offered it to "ME" and I accepted His offer. PERIOD.
Gods PLAN, that "I" be with my Lord, lifted UP above Destructions UPON the Earth, is "PART" of "MY" blessing, for having BeCOME Converted.

I wonder if you realise that in a way you're actually helping me build my argument. Yes...our salvation IS in Christ and him alone. This is all and only what the bible teaches in terms of salvation and rescue. And when it teaches of 'escaping wrath' it teaches it in direct harmony with our salvation. In other words....our escaping the wrath of God IS our salvation. It is the securing of our soul and the escape from the second death. Physical suffering or death means nothing to those eternally secure in Christ.
So...when you come to say things like "It's God's plan that I be lifted up above the destruction upon the Earth"....I ask...where's the bible verse for that?
I have the bible verses that say my soul is secure from God's wrath, that the second death will never touch me. I have the verses that say I will be persecuted, hated, killed. I have the verse that shows Christ praying to the Father to not take us out of the world. But I just don't have the verses that show us flying on out of here when things get bad. For many of our brothers and sisters, things are already bad.

That is a strange argument ^^.

Salvation is offered, and either accepted or rejected. PERIOD.

Not being subject to Wrath is His Protection FOR those WHO ARE Saved.

It's a strange argument? Okay...let's see...who is the 'wrath of God' upon and why? And how do we avoid it?

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. -John 3:36

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. -Romans 1:18

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. -Romans 5:9

So, God's wrath is upon those who do not obey the Son, who are ungodly and unrighteous. And we are saved from God's wrath by the blood of Christ. So...how is it that my argument that "we are saved from the 'wrath of God' by salvation; by the blood of Christ,not by being Raptured away from the danger zone when the wrath goes down"...so strange? Is it not biblical?

It's strange to me. I would think that if the doctrine of 'heavenly escape' was indeed a 'thing', that scripture would get a little more specific over it. Those who advocate for it have to duck and weave pretty hard, to my way of thinking. They have to ignore Christ's 'do not take them out of this world'. They have to ignore 'in this world you will have persecution and death'. They have to ignore all the times the bible speaks of 'eternal life' as opposed to wrath. I would think that those writing scripture could have gone in for a little more specificity, don't you? Like, "those who believe in the Son don't have to worry about persecution or wrath, because the Lord will descend with a shout". Why use this language elsewhere to describe other things, but not your "heavenly escape?" Could it be because it was never meant to imply a heavenly escape?

Does ^^ that APPLY to you?
Because it does NOT APPLY to me.

Now, see...this makes me wonder if you understood a single thing I said. You get that when Jesus comes back, and divides the sheep and the goats...the just and unjust...that the unjust are going to go away into eternal torment, yeah? Now...thinking about that moment...a moment that Matt 25 tells us happens AT Christ's return, now read this verse again:

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. -Romans 2:5

So...no...no I don't think that applies to me, or to any Christian...we would be in the 'sheep' category, and this verse is clearly talking to the goats.

I have other things to think about, rather than Scripts that do not Apply to me.

Glory to God,
Taken

Eh....from how you're taking some of these scriptures....you could stand to think about them some more. You seem to be missing the point of many of them.

 

[Enoch111]

But I just don't have the verses that show us flying on out of here when things get bad.

Not "when things get bad" but when the Church is complete, and the full number of Gentiles has entered into the Church.

And "when things get bad" is not even the issue, and that is why you keep stumbling over this matter. God has a designated time for His wrath to be poured out upon this world, and that wrath is NOT for the saints. Once you understand that very simple truth, everything else will fall into place.

 

[Naomi25]

Do you grasp how misunderstood Christianity is to the World?
It would baffle me too, to hear Christian says, well, uh, there are only two states:
In Christ and not in Chirst....and
In Christ is a Christian....and BTW there are "Fake Christians"...

Of course I know how misunderstood Christianity is, but making up new names for us is not going to help.
And...your 'definition', whatever that may be, is so much clearer?
If it 'baffles you' to hear the term "In Christ", then you haven't read Paul at all, and that is distressing. And if you aren't aware that there are "fake Christians" you are behind the 8-ball, cause half the world knows it. It's sad and a bad witness and plenty will say "Lord, Lord" at the end, but that is just how things are.
As the Church, it is our job to do our best to walk as Christ walked: reach those lost (even in Church) and be Christ's witness and representative on earth. We'll never be perfect at it, but we should never stop trying, because each soul is precious and loved by God.

When speaking of spiritual things, according to spiritual understanding and another continues to lean on natural understanding, maks silly remarks and is looking for proof, I tend to think, hey, that's not me.

Unfortunately I don't hold the patent on silly remarks, or natural understanding. What I am aware of, however, is that if we, as fleshly people, don't constantly bring our ideas and doctrines back to scripture, things spiral away from God really quickly. So...if "looking for proof" from the bible is too far out there for you, or seems unreasonable or...how did you put it...'ignorant'...then dude...I think that's on you.

No, not "this place". And No, not repopulated by the Converted.

I neither said or implied such.

Then goodness know what on earth you were implying. That was the best I could wring from that...ah...pearl of wisdom, you tossed out. It made little sense and had no biblical backing in any form. So, I'm happy to let it slide into the waters of oblivion.

Start over and follow the detailed Order, if knowledge is your interest. Thereafter comes the understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

"Confucius say...."
I've never really been interested in fancy sayings that sound marvelous but fall flat.
The bible is not complicated, it's not disordered. I'm sorry if you can't see the obvious truth blaring out of it in some of these issues, but it's not really a cause to imply I'm stupid or ignorant.

 

[Copperhead]

God has a designated time for His wrath to be poured out upon this world

And it is not limited to when the word "wrath" shows up in Revelation. YHVH has used secular individuals and empires to execute His wrath many times in history. The Assyrian Empire is a classic example.

And not once was the word for "wrath" used regarding the Flood event of Noah's time, yet it seems pretty clear that it was the wrath of YHVH that destroyed all life upon the earth except Noah, his family, and the animals in the ark.

And not understanding that is what trips up so many so that they only see the wrath occurring at the Sixth Seal.

 

[Naomi25]

Already Considered:
Temple is a reference to Jews.
Already Considered:
Jews (for the most part), do not YET believe Christ Jesus is their Messiah.
Already Considered:
God has a plan for HIS People, Israel, who are faithful TO GOD.
Already Considered;
What applies to the Jews at large and their Salvation does not apply to me.

Factually ALL men were taken "OUT" of the Earth.
Factually I said nothing about Noah's natural birth or being TAKEN OUT OF THE EARTH.
Factually I specifically said Noah was Lifted UP above the Earth.
Factually Noah was NOT ON THE EARTH.
Factually Scripture says:

Gen 7
[13] In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.

Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Gen 7
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

them

Pretty handy, that the disciples of Jesus were protected from evil and able to accomplish what Jesus had taught them, and sent them to do. Eh?

Fact is all are sentenced to BODILY death.
But good to know, disciples of Christ Jesus, have God to protect them from evil...and so also from destruction upon the earth....as in the days of Noah.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well then. It's now completely obvious, isn't it? God's church is going to be stuffed into an ARK and LIFTED above the earth...in the CLOUDS.
Eh gads! Why didn't I EVER see it BEFORE??