When to look for the rapture of the church

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Naomi25

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"WE" is totally subjective.

Lumping ALL together as WE...
When WE APPLIES exclusively to particular people.
Seriously?

You seem to be comparing:
Everlasting life "OR" Everlasting Wrath, as A choice of THIS or THAT.

I said no such thing, nor agree with that.

The final result for NOT WE.....but rather EVERY individual IS:
LIFE forever WITH GOD
OR
VOID of LIFE and FOREVER WIThOUT GOD


Not at all.

I'm sorry...but its late, and your disjointed sentences are just too hard to make much sense of. We? This or that? Not We? Not at all? See how that sort of jumps. Maybe you can run it all together as you're answering in your head, but for me, reading it on a page...it just comes out jerky and confused...so...sorry...but I don't understand, so thats why I'm not answering.
 

Naomi25

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Actually Naomi, this was a literal prophecy that became literally fulfilled. The NC was indeed made w/ Israel. Don't forget that for the first decade or so there were only Israeli believers. Prophecy fulfilled literally. The Gentiles became heirs to the same covenant but it came to Israel first. It' also not completely fulfilled until Heb. 8:11 happens at the beginning of the millennium.

It depends on how you look at it. I actually agree that Israel was in sight for this prophecy...and so would Paul. However, how Israel saw itself and expected it's future to unfold...and how many people now see Israel and expect Israels future to unfold, is not what we see happening in the NT and with the NC.
Paul painstakingly shows in the NT how 'true Israel'...Abrahams true children of promise, were never "all" Israel. There were always a small, 'elect' group within 'National' Israel. When the NC promises were made to Israel, it was made to true Israel, and true Israel recieved it...the elect....which most certainly were Jewish people. And yes, Gentile believers were 'grafted in' to this group, welcomed into this NC.
The problem was, the expectation back then was if you were a Jew, you were "in". God gave the Law of Moses to every person with Jewish blood, so they thought that this NC would apply to every person who could claim 'sonship' from Abraham. Like now, many people think that the Jewish nation is special because they are God's chosen people. The problem with that is that is that was never how God defined his 'children of promise'. Paul tells us in Romans 9-11 that for the sake of the 'children of promise'...the Patriarchs, that he will, in the end, save "all Israel"...so...I do believe he still holds a sovereign hand over the Nation of Israel, but it is not because they are special in their own right, chosen and holy. That, Paul tells us, is only the elect, the children of promise.
 
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Taken

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Seriously?



I'm sorry...but its late, and your disjointed sentences are just too hard to make much sense of. We? This or that? Not We? Not at all? See how that sort of jumps. Maybe you can run it all together as you're answering in your head, but for me, reading it on a page...it just comes out jerky and confused...so...sorry...but I don't understand, so thats why I'm not answering.

No problem.
You and I are not on the same page.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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When to look for the rapture of the Church
^ OP

First of all ~ Spot on, the rapture "applies to" members of Christ's Spiritual "Church".

Some thoughts per the OP ~

Jewish homeland established.

Northern and Southern Established powers (Nations & leaders) against Jews and its homeland.

Modern European nations gathering together in Union, excluding of Israel.

Mans ability to exterminate itself.

Increase frequency and magnitude of world disasters. And instant knowledge the world is informed of such disasters, perpetuating world fear.

Gospel being preached world wide.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Trekson

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It depends on how you look at it. I actually agree that Israel was in sight for this prophecy...and so would Paul. However, how Israel saw itself and expected it's future to unfold...and how many people now see Israel and expect Israels future to unfold, is not what we see happening in the NT and with the NC.
Paul painstakingly shows in the NT how 'true Israel'...Abrahams true children of promise, were never "all" Israel. There were always a small, 'elect' group within 'National' Israel. When the NC promises were made to Israel, it was made to true Israel, and true Israel recieved it...the elect....which most certainly were Jewish people. And yes, Gentile believers were 'grafted in' to this group, welcomed into this NC.
The problem was, the expectation back then was if you were a Jew, you were "in". God gave the Law of Moses to every person with Jewish blood, so they thought that this NC would apply to every person who could claim 'sonship' from Abraham. Like now, many people think that the Jewish nation is special because they are God's chosen people. The problem with that is that is that was never how God defined his 'children of promise'. Paul tells us in Romans 9-11 that for the sake of the 'children of promise'...the Patriarchs, that he will, in the end, save "all Israel"...so...I do believe he still holds a sovereign hand over the Nation of Israel, but it is not because they are special in their own right, chosen and holy. That, Paul tells us, is only the elect, the children of promise.

I agree and they will be the 144,000, imho. Have you gotten around to reading the Prophecy vs. Apocalyptic post yet?
 

Davy

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Scripture says that, and I agree with Scripture.


1 Thes 4
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ...

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR :


Sure. He will descend FROM the CLOUDS TO EARTH.


You ignoring His Descent TO THE CLOUDS, has nothing to do with ME or your accusation of dishonesty toward ME.

If you seek the Truth of Scripture Follow the Order of what Scripture reveals.

Glory to God,
Taken

I am not ignoring His descent IN... the clouds. His descent is to the earth where Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 reveals His return to this earth.

Your description of His return ends... in 1 Thessalonians 4, and omits Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. I've already been falsely accused of dumping Scripture in favor of some pet doctrine. Should that be said of you?
 
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CoreIssue

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I am not ignoring Hid descent IN... the clouds. His descent is to the earth where Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 reveals His return to this earth.

Your description of His return ends... in 1 Thessalonians 4, and omits Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. I've already been falsely accused of dumping Scripture in favor of some pet doctrine. Should that be said of you?

But do you agree the dissent into the clouds as a separate event from the second coming to the earth?
 

Taken

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I am not ignoring Hid descent IN... the clouds. His descent is to the earth where Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 reveals His return to this earth.

Your description of His return ends... in 1 Thessalonians 4, and omits Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. I've already been falsely accused of dumping Scripture in favor of some pet doctrine. Should that be said of you?

I did not OMIT, what I was NOT speaking of.

When I am speaking of the Lords Descent, TO the CLOUDS, I am not speaking of the Lords RETURN to the EARTH. <-- entirely two Different events.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Davy

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It's not that there's a problem having Satan live past the beast and false prophet...not at all. Let me try and give you another example of why chronology is tricky in Revelation:

Well, I think you're barking up the wrong tree, I'm not new at studying Revelation, nor the whole Bible for that matter.

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” -Revelation 6:12–17

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” -Revelation 7:1–3


Ok...In Chapter 6 we have, really, a theophany...a visible manifestation of God to mankind. It is so terrible, so horrifying, the inhabitants of the world cry out of the very rocks and mountains to crush them. We see the sun blotting out, great stars falling, the sky vanishing, every mountain and Island being 'removed'. This happens when they "see" the face of the one sitting on the throne...the wrath of the Lamb. It is...clearly...Christ's return.
And yet, in the next Chapter we see that apparently the 'sky' is back, because we have wind. Islands and mountains and land...no problem, because now we're told to not harm even the trees or grass. And angel rises from the sun that was previously blocked out....

The flow of Revelation is not always chronological. The Seals of Rev.6 are the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. And the first part of the 6th Seal is not the time of Jesus' coming, although the rest of the 6th Seal is. The Rev.7:1 verse is declaring a new subject of those sealed with God's seal before the end, so of course the end of Rev.6 does NOT flow into Rev.7. And the later 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial is the same timing as the latter part of the 6th Seal, i.e., the day of Jesus' second coming and the cup of wrath.

Now...Dispensationalists mostly says that if "God blocked out the sun, he can unblock it", and yes, that is true...but is that what's going on here, and the other times it happens? Does God play 'rewind' several times in the book, or do the many theophanies and 'world ending' judgements we see find a more realistic reading in a series of visions that are themselves repeating, rather than a series of disasters, repeating. If you believe one is possible, you have to believe the other is possible as well...the question becomes, which is the truth.

I'm not a Dispensationalist. And I don't interpret Revelation like 'paint by numbers'. It is written much like how the Old Testament Books of the prophets are written, changing between past, present, and future very quickly. Only by study in the whole Bible can one know how the order of all Revelation events flow.

For me, it's Christ's return that's the answer. If people on earth see his face in 6:16, and in 11:15 we are told his the kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and then in 19:11-21 Christ comes to defeat his enemies, then potentially we have not only several different 'worldly apocolypses', but also several different Christ comings. That does't match up with anything else scripture reveals. So, we begin to consider recapitulation.

God's Word is written in simplicity. There is only one second coming, and that is the same time Jesus gathers His Church, after the the tribulation time He mentioned in His Olivet discourse.

Just curious, how do you understand this then? It quite clearly says that "when" Jesus comes, "then" he will sit on his throne and judge. And they "will go away into eternal punishment".

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32, 46

I've already explained that Matt.25 Scripture once. Revelation was given after... the Gospel of Matthew witness. In a study of electronics, would you build an AC circuit board of electrical components before you even understood basic electricity? Our Lord's Revelation is like 'the rest of the story'. It cannot be omitted when reading about the sheep and goats in Matt.25. We know there is a "thousand years" period prior to the Great White Throne Judgment and casting into the lake of fire.

I don't think it was a "clue" to anything. I think Jesus was saying it like it was. And, like normal, his Disciples didn't get it...they didn't get it until the Spirit came upon them. It was only then that they stopped asking for and expecting an earthly kingdom, and started going about growing Christ's spiritual kingdom through spreading the gospel.

Well, you're wrong about that, as Acts 1 right before He ascended to The Father they asked Him if He was then going to restore the kingdom of Israel. They weren't talking about a spiritual kingdom with their question.

I think the problem many have, is with building sand castles in their minds when speaking of Bible topics most likely because of how there are so many preachers out their in the pulpits that can preach The Gospel, but with the rest of the majority of The Bible they're simply wingin' it. The example they set trickles down to how their congregations study God's Word.

When Jesus said his Kingdom was not of this earth, he meant it. When he said the Kingdom was among them, he meant it. When he said that the kingdom started small, like a mustard seed, and would grow to massive size, he meant it. When Paul said that Christ is ruling and reigning now, he meant it. When Paul said that in Christ, all of God's promises to Abraham have been fulfilled...find their yes and amen...he meant it. And if we, as Christ's followers, want that Kingdom and those promises, then we follow Christ, denying ourselves and taking up our crosses, no matter the tribulation we see.

There's that wingin' it type thinking I was speaking of. A whole lot of Bible Scripture has to be discarded to omit the fact that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles never... dumped the idea of a literal, physical kingdom here on earth. Some go way too far with Paul's Epistles in thinking he was discarding the idea of a literal physical kingdom on earth that our Lord Jesus will literally reign over upon David's literal throne on earth. Matthew 19:28 by our Lord Jesus reveals those who wingin' it have built a sand castle with thinking of the kingdom in a spiritual sense only.


Revelation draws most of its imagry from the OT, so, yes, knowing the OT puts you at an advantage when reading the book. And no, not every chapter is non-chronological. There are a set of visions, and they are repeated. They are interrupted by parentheses visions (Rev 12, or Rev 18 for eg).

Not everything written in allegory in the OT prophets is meant spiritually. Allegory is simply a tool to describe literal things, like God's eternal Kingdom to come here on a cleansed earth. I'm well aware of the parallels between Revelation and the OT Books, especially with Genesis. There's a section of chapters in the Book of Isaiah that scholars call 'The Apocalypse of Isaiah' because it parallels the events in Revelation.
 

Davy

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Dispensationalists or no, I think a point has still been missed. Christ IS David's heir. No one can deny that. And so, the question then becomes, does he only truly inherit that status when he sits on that 'earthly' throne? The answer must be no. And biblically, we see it supported. Christ established a Kingdom in his first coming (Matt 12:28), told those who would hear that his Kingdom was NOT of this world (John 18:36), took his place on the throne next to God when he ascended in glory and is now above all other powers and authorities(Eph 1:20-22). And upon his return, he will defeat the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:26).
Now...will Jesus have a literal throne on literal earth? I suppose he will. But it will be the new earth, in the "Age to Come". In "this age", everything in scripture points to Christ, as David's heir, ruling right now, in full legitamcy, from where he is. His seat of power is such that it extends over all the earth, thus, sitting in a literal palace or temple in a literal throne in a literal city, holds no sway over him....his seat of power is heaven, and he is "above all rule, all authority, over every name".

I keep hearing that 'not of this world' misinterpreted. It simply means His future physical Kingdom to come on earth is not of this present world time. There are actually 3 world ages taught in God's Word, in 2 Peter 3. We are still in the second one. God's eternal Kingdom is the third one to come, which begins when Jesus returns to take reign over all nations with "a rod of iron" like Revelation says. This present world will be destroyed by fire according to Peter. This is what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed.

Per Rev.20, when Jesus returns, His saints that remained faithful will reign over the nations with Him, for a "thousand years". The end will happen right after the 1,000 years, and that is when Satan is destroyed, and the GWT Judgment happens with death and the wicked cast into the lake of fire. All one need do is open up their Bible to Revelation 20 and read to understand that.

I disagree...I think there is a far more simple reading of such a passage: these persecutors saw themselves as Jews...God's people...and as "God's beloved people" they could do no wrong. We know they persecuted the Christians horribly. Christ's message to his Church is this: be strong, be patient, soon these Jews will know that to be a 'son of the promise'...a true Jew, they must love me, as I love you. They will know I love you, and they will kneel before you just as the Gentiles once kneeled before them (Is 45:14, 49:23). And history tells us that this, indeed has happened. Christians have supported the Jews in numerous ways over the years. And as more and more Jews come to Christ, we see this promise come true...they truly acknowledge that God loves us...they are provoked to jealousy and moved into action to know their Messiah!

With that view, it would mean to discard the OT histories of the Canaanite peoples that crept in among Israel, and even the Kenite foreigners having becomes scribes in Israel by the time of Jesus' 1st coming. Even some of the high priests in Israel's history were not born of Israel (per Jewish historian Josephus). So no, the "synagogue of Satan" isn't about true Jews at all, meaning bloodline Israel. It's about foreigners who took the religion and ancestry of Judah, which is why the last verse of Zech.14 says in that future time after Jesus' coming there will be no more the Canaanite in the house of God. The children of darkness is who the "synagogue of Satan" represents, for they are even against bloodline Judah! Or have you forgotten about the crept in unawares of Jude 1, the tares of Matt.13?


Except I don't proclaim the wicked are judged and destroyed on the day of his return...the bible does. It proclaims it clearly and openly.

Not if you read Revelation 20. And it was given after... that Matt.25 example of the sheep and goats.
 

Davy

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Again, sorry, I'm not quite sure of your point. Do you mean, with their "mortal soul" and the "second death", that they indeed cease to be at that second death?

The phrase "this mortal" is pointing to the soul. That's what is inside the flesh body. It continues after flesh death per Matt.10:28. How is it you are not aware that it is still mortal until one accepts Jesus as their Savior? and that those who's soul is still mortal when Jesus comes are still not destroyed yet? (like those required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship the King, The LORD of hosts? (Zech.14).

Ok...I was with you and agreed with pretty much everything up until the end. What happens if the the unsaved person's soul dies? Is that it for them? What happens to all the passages that speak of eternal punishment? How could their punishment be eternal if their soul dies and that's it for them?

Surely you are not thinking of old Jewish fables like the soul requiring a flesh body just to manifest. Psalms 37 reveals the wicked will perish. Rev.20 with death and hell thrown into the "lake of fire" reveals those things 'destroyed'. So if the wicked are also cast into that "lake of fire" like it says.... So no, I do not believe the actual burning in fire like a piece of bacon forever; I believe it means they are gone everlasting. I actually see the wicked choosing... to perish, because if they can't be their own gods, they don't want to worship The True GOD, and they'd rather perish. God doesn't wish for any to perish, but that all come to repent, like Peter said. That is also why it was Paul's hope that there will be both a resurrection of the just, and the unjust (meaning he wanted the wicked to have opportunity to know the Truth and repent. Not all will be able to hear The Gospel during this present world time.)

Ps 37:9-10
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

KJV

Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV



I do believe that at Christ's return we will see all these events happening more or less at once (within reason...not over a period of weeks or months). And yes, when he comes he does judge both 'sheep and goats'. However, the verses that speak of the 'Rapture', other than 1 Cor 15, make it clear that this event is specifically for those "in Christ". When the 'unsaved' are given bodies that will last an eternity...that is not done at the glorious 'reunion' in the sky of Christ and his body. See Matt 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17.

I don't see the "lake of fire" event yet until after Jesus reigns with His elect on earth for the "thousand years" of Rev.20, as written. I choose not to ascribe that chapter to men's philosophy.

The division of His sheep from the goats is simply a dividing of God's children apart from the children of darkness when He comes. It is the end of this 'present' world, but not God's eternity yet.

It's wishful thinking to believe that Paul was only talking about the Church when speaking of God's order for this world and the world to come. It's even a bit conceited to think that way, especially since our Lord Jesus revealed a "resurrection of damnation" for the wicked dead per John 5:28-29.
 

Davy

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Well...let's just look at the progression of thought through the NT:

I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. -Matthew 12:6

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body. -John 2:19–21

Nothing against what I've said so far. There was a standing temple in Jerusalem when Jesus said that.


Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. -1 Corinthians 3:16–17

How is that in red not... what I've been saying? The true spiritual temple CANNOT be corrupted by any man. But a physical temple can!
 

Naomi25

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No problem.
You and I are not on the same page.

Glory to God,
Taken
That's not necessarily a bad thing! You know...the whole 'someone's an arm, another person's a leg' thing. I suppose we have to trust that God has made us how and who we are. :)
 

Naomi25

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I agree and they will be the 144,000, imho. Have you gotten around to reading the Prophecy vs. Apocalyptic post yet?
Ha...sorry, no! I hope to this afternoon. How do people find the time to post so much here, I wonder? Maybe I'm just lousy at time management....
 

Taken

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That's not necessarily a bad thing! You know...the whole 'someone's an arm, another person's a leg' thing. I suppose we have to trust that God has made us how and who we are. :)

Notwithstanding ADAM, I am confidant God made each human in the womb "good", and once born each human is "born" in SIN.

And Gods desire is that ALL will Believe IN Him, and ALL "Will Believe", but ALL will NOT be restored to Good and Reconcilled unto God.

Few will be raised IN Glory.
Many will be raised IN Damnation.

It is Gods Desire ALL IN BELIEF; come to the SAME "Understanding"...
"Gods Understanding" ...
"not mans understanding".

God has a PLAN "for" GREAT DESTRUCTION / GREAT SEPARATION "FROM" God "of" CORRUPTION;
Corrupt Heavens
Corrupt Celestial bodies
Corrupt Earth
Corrupt Terrestrial bodies

If you believe YOU ARE (divided) ie; Saved and Born Again, YOU simply need to study the Word of God, Whereby, Thee Lord God, (Separates) YOUR, (saved soul and born again spirit) from all things to BE Destroyed/Separated "from" God;
Corrupt heavens
Corrupt celestial bodies
Corrupt earth
Corrupt terrestrial bodies

Tribulation IS about a humans daily trials and hardships BECAUSE the Divided SAVED occupy this earth WITH, corrupt (terrestrial) men, and corrupt (celestial) bodies.

Gods "GREAT" Tribulation IS about GODS intervention to SEPARATE those DIVIDED "with" God; "away from" those "without God".

Thee Lord God has Already "prepared" me,
to be in a PLACE, He has Already "prepared" for me to BE,
BEFORE the DAY,
The Lord God Begins His Great Tribulation;
Upon;
The corrupt earth
The corrupt terrestrial bodies
The corrupt heavens
The corrupt celestial bodies

And THAT PLACE is the CLOUDS,
Below the heavens,
Above the earth,
WITH HIM and His protective supreme Power.

You simply need to Discover where you will be and why. Because you seem to be without understanding where you will be and why.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Davy

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....

So...I shouldn't need to say much, but basically, we have the idea that the Temple of God is...well, Christ. And in our union with Christ, we become the Temple of God. That means that individual Christians, with the Spirit dwelling within us, are the Temple and the Church as a whole, is the Temple. And we see from Revelation that the idea follows through...this image of a person being made a 'pillar' in the temple. It's an image of our union with Christ. Our being "In Christ".

There's no questioning that there is a spiritual temple metaphor presented in New Testament Scripture. But there also is direct revelation about a literal physical sanctuary for the future also, just more in the Old Testament Books.

Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

John 14:2
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
KJV


The "Father's house" is what the sanctuary of Ezekiel is describing:

Ezek 47:1
47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
KJV


Ezek 47:9-12
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

KJV

Ezekiel 47:12 is pointing directly to the Tree of Life described in Revelation:

Rev 22:1-2
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV


That is that same event of the many trees on either side of the Ezekiel river, bearing its fruits each month that will not be consumed, and its leaves are for medicine. That river flowing out of the sanctuary in Ezekiel 47 is this same "river of water of life" here in Revelation 22.

In Ezekiel 47, we are given a location on earth where that River will flow:

Ezek 47:7-10
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

KJV

If the Ezekiel river and Father's house are just spiritual metaphors, then so is our Lord Jesus' promise to prepare a place for us in His Father's house per John 14, and also that River in Revelation 22 would not be real either but only a fanciful whim, and likewise with the River in Genesis 2 flowing out of God's Garden of Eden:

Gen 2:10-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
KJV


The two rivers of Hiddekel (Tigris) and Euphrates we still know their locations upon the earth today. That is definite evidence this River flowing out of God's Eden is real, and not some fictitious myth. Likewise with the River of Revelation 22, and also the River of Ezekiel 47 that will flow out of The Father's House, also called a "sanctuary" there.

The following is where Apostle Paul quoted from about God shaking this earth once more in final, and setting up His Kingdom to come on earth. Notice Haggai 2:7 speaks of The Father's "house", which is that same "Father's house" of John 14 and Ezekiel 40 thru 47:

Hag 2:6-7
6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

KJV

Heb 12:25-28
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, 'Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.'
27 And this word,' Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
KJV


So there's Scripture evidence of our Lord Jesus coming to reign on earth involving a Millennial sanctuary with God's River being established upon the earth... again! Not only that, but Jesus' promise exists per The New Covenant involving His preparing a place (abode in the Greek) for His elect in His Father's house!
 

Davy

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So...I shouldn't need to say much, but basically, we have the idea that the Temple of God is...well, Christ. And in our union with Christ, we become the Temple of God. That means that individual Christians, with the Spirit dwelling within us, are the Temple and the Church as a whole, is the Temple. And we see from Revelation that the idea follows through...this image of a person being made a 'pillar' in the temple. It's an image of our union with Christ. Our being "In Christ".

The Scripture evidence for a future sanctuary existing for Christ's future reign with His elect, what He called "My Father's house" in John 14, shouldn't be doubted as being a literal structure on earth, even though more of the details for it are given in the Old Testament Book of Ezekiel. Same goes for God's River returning that was once upon this earth.

But there are certain men crept in that play upon Biblically ignorant minds, teaching that these things written in God's Word are but myths, mystic spiritualizations, and they instead seek to change what The Father and His Son are going to establish upon this earth and instead replace it with their dreamed up castles in the sand organizations that on the day of Christ's return will perish like the wind. Many brethren in a lot of today's Churches don't realize how they're being setup for the coming one-world religion and one-world government under the Antichrist. For that to be successful they have... to downplay the Scripture evidence I gave in my previous post about the future Millennial sanctuary ("house") our Lord Jesus and His elect will reign over all nations from when He returns.


From this point of view, and following this clear line of thinking from the scriptural passages, it's not at all hard to believe some wolf will set himself up in the Church. How many false teachers do we have now? Prosperity teachers? Emergent teachers...maybe even the current Pope.
So, while you are correct in asserting that no corruption could come to Christ, or the Spirit that dwells within us, that's not really the direction this is taking. If someone is to set himself up as a leader "proclaiming himself to be God", it would be in the Church, not to oneself, and as we know, the church is not foolproof against corruption.

No false one can sit in the spiritual temple that Apostle Paul described. Like I said, for anyone being able to do that, whether a pope, a king, or a president, it would mean the very 'foundation' of Christ's Salvation, which is what the spiritual temple idea represents, would fall to the ground! That theory you present of the true spiritual temple being able to be corrupted simply is a white-washed wall that when the rains come it falls to the ground. Christ's Salvation is True, and that is what the spiritual temple represents, for ONLY those worthy that remain in Jesus Christ will be a part of it joined with Jesus and His Apostles and prophets.


Sure...that's totally what I'm suggesting. Take any verse in the OT, and make it say whatever you want now it's NT times. Go crazy! :rolleyes:

Those little prep false statements don't really work. Just because you're Biblically ignorant of OT and NT Scripture like what I presented in my previous post doesn't mean you can just assign it all as 'making it say whatever one wants'. That's a very Biblically illiterate assumption. It has to be proven. The Biblical fact is, both the idea of a literal future sanctuary on earth is presented, and the idea of a spiritual temple with our Lord Jesus, His Apostles, and prophets as the spiritual foundation, also exists in Scripture. Yet the spiritual foundation of Apostle Paul's Epistles never denies the Scriptures I showed about The Father's house our Lord Jesus mentioned, and that OT Scriptures reveals in more detail for the future.

Thus the real difference between those like you and me, is that you've been taught to scrap any Scripture evidence pointing to the future literal sanctuary to be established on earth, while I recognize Scripture about it being established in the future beginning our Lord Jesus' return, and that being the idea of the foundation that Apostle Paul was speaking of... spiritually. Now in God's future eternity, the new heavens and a new earth which He will establish after... Jesus reigns with His elect over the nations for a thousand years, in that time, there will be no more sanctuary or temple (Rev.21:22). But notice there even, the 12 tribes of Israel will still exist on earth, as also the new Jerusalem and its walls and 12 gates. Christ's Apostles will rule sitting upon 12 thrones like He promised them also.

Therefore, this pretty well disproves men's suppositions of Christ's kingdom being about just some mystical state inside our minds. Christ's Salvation per God's Word will manifest as a literal Kingdom in the future at His return. His name is "King of kings, and Lord of lords", meaning He will rule in His Kingdom over the nations with a rod of iron, as He was promised (Ps.2, Rev.2).

More on the mystical state idea of trying to spiritualize Christ's future Kingdom in the world to come. When Apostle Paul used the idea of a spiritual temple to represent Christ's Salvation, it was because during THIS world, we only have the 'hope' and His 'promise' of the Kingdom to come. It is NOT... to be established in the outward literal sense on earth until He returns. That is why Paul used such figure of speech when speaking of a spiritual temple idea. The danger with loosing focus on that point is with listening to crept in unawares who practice mysticism...

Mysticism is a 'practice', an attempt to use spiritual exercises to awaken one's psychic, hidden things of the spirit. Those have taken what our Lord Jesus said in Luke 17 about the kingdom of God being 'within you', and turned it into some idea of ascetic mystic occult practice. The occult secret fraternities of initiation even teach their students that our Lord Jesus Himself was one of them, and that He was so attuned... to the Cosmic, that He had the Kingdom inside Himself! They also say that Buddha, Zoroaster, etc., all did the same thing! In reality, those occultists follow the Devil himself who wants to trick people into denying that Jesus is GOD The Son, and instead think that our Lord Jesus was only just a prophet like Moses, etc., and not at all God in the flesh (Immanuel).
 

Davy

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I did not OMIT, what I was NOT speaking of.

When I am speaking of the Lords Descent, TO the CLOUDS, I am not speaking of the Lords RETURN to the EARTH. <-- entirely two Different events.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well, I presented the Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 evidence to you in my post #403, so what you say here is meaningless, since you failed to address the Scripture I posted in reply already.
 

Naomi25

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God's Word is written in simplicity. There is only one second coming, and that is the same time Jesus gathers His Church, after the the tribulation time He mentioned in His Olivet discourse.

I've already explained that Matt.25 Scripture once. Revelation was given after... the Gospel of Matthew witness. In a study of electronics, would you build an AC circuit board of electrical components before you even understood basic electricity? Our Lord's Revelation is like 'the rest of the story'. It cannot be omitted when reading about the sheep and goats in Matt.25. We know there is a "thousand years" period prior to the Great White Throne Judgment and casting into the lake of fire.

You "know" there is 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne Judgement how? You've admitted previously that Revelation is not all chronological. You say above that there is only one coming of Christ. Matt 25 says that "when he comes, then" he will sit on his throne and judge. About the only argument left to you is that the jugdements for the 'living' and the 'dead' are at different times...thus Matt 25 judgement and the GWT judgement are different. Except then we read this verse:

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1

This verse puts the judgement of living and dead AT the appearance of Christ. So...that doesn't give a lot of wiggle room in my opinion.

Well, you're wrong about that, as Acts 1 right before He ascended to The Father they asked Him if He was then going to restore the kingdom of Israel. They weren't talking about a spiritual kingdom with their question.
Ah...now your not getting it. Acts 1 is before Pentecost. That's before the Spirit descended and they understood the real nature of Christ's Kingdom. So...at Acts 1 they were still expecting, like all the other Jews, that when Messiah came, it would be as this great political leader who would expell the Romans and set up this earthly kingdom and sit on David's throne. Jesus told them his Kingdom was not of this earth. And, as I pointed out, even at his ascention, the Disciples still didn't understand. But, come Pentecost...which is Acts 2, by the way, we never hear them talking about an earthly kingdom again, or Christ coming to sit on Davids throne. Instead, they throw all their energies into the great commission....growing the kingdom that way. Paul, who tells us was taught all his doctrine from Christ himself, teaches us that Christ is even now ruling and reigning...which fits perfectly with "my kingdom is not of this earth". It also fits perfectly with 1 Cor 15, which tells us that when he returns, it will be because he has put every power and authority under his feet, and on his return, the last enemy, death, will also be defeated.


There's that wingin' it type thinking I was speaking of. A whole lot of Bible Scripture has to be discarded to omit the fact that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles never... dumped the idea of a literal, physical kingdom here on earth. Some go way too far with Paul's Epistles in thinking he was discarding the idea of a literal physical kingdom on earth that our Lord Jesus will literally reign over upon David's literal throne on earth. Matthew 19:28 by our Lord Jesus reveals those who wingin' it have built a sand castle with thinking of the kingdom in a spiritual sense only.
They never dumped the idea? How would you know, if they never spoke of it? They did, however, speak of Christ ruling and reigning now. We do have scripture telling us, clearly, that Christ says his kingdom is "not of this world"...sort of clear, yeah? Wouldn't that mean, then, that's its people like you who are ignoring or wiggling around scriptures to make your thoughts and doctrines fit? Because...what else do you do with these verses? Why is Christ ruling now? Over what? What is the purpose of his ruling now? What Kingdom is he ruling over, and which kingdom is it that he delievers over to the Father at his return, when he's conquered all powers and enemies?