What wonders do you think could fool the elect?

[Helen]

Yes, and then comes the question again of just who exactly are the elect... and how are they selected? Were they really preselected as some apparently believe?

John...those three points would make an excellent New Thread would they not ... Go for it!!

Maybe we all need a refresher on what we really believe on this points.

I have not 'weighed' them for a while now.

 

[CoreIssue]

John...those three points would make an excellent New Thread would they not ... Go for it!!

Maybe we all need a refresher on what we really believe on this points.

I have not 'weighed' them for a while now.

The answer is simple. Read Romans 8.

 

[Helen]

The answer is simple. Read Romans 8.

Well, that would be a pretty short thread!!

 

[CoreIssue]

Well, that would be a pretty short thread!!

God keeps it simple. No one going to the lake be able to say you made it to complicated.

 

[Copperhead]

The answer is simple. Read Romans 8.

If you stop at Romans 8, that leads one to conclude one thing. But if one throws in Romans 9, 10, and 11 and then tosses in Isaiah 45, then one comes to another conclusion.

And if we take all instances in scripture of "elect", there are 4 different assignments of elect. One to Yeshua, one to the Hebrews, one to those in the Body of Messiah, and one to certain angels.

Now it then becomes a question of which elect is being referenced in Matthew 24. Since the start of the discourse in Matthew 23:37 onward the theme has been Jerusalem, the Temple, Shabbat, Judea, etc, my money is on the elect of Jacob (Judah and Israel) as per Isaiah 45 and affirmed by Paul in Romans 11. Sure isn't Yeshua or the angels.

I know that some equate anything Yeshua talked about as having something to do with the church, but I don't. And when one gets a real grasp on what the main purpose of the Tribulation period is for, then it clears up any conflicts. Some seem to desperately want to go thru the GT period. Not sure how they see that as comforting, but they must.

 

[CoreIssue]

If you stop at Romans 8, that leads one to conclude one thing. But if one throws in Romans 9, 10, and 11 and then tosses in Isaiah 45, then one comes to another conclusion.

And if we take all instances in scripture of "elect", there are 4 different assignments of elect. One to Yeshua, one to the Hebrews, one to those in the Body of Messiah, and one to certain angels.

Now it then becomes a question of which elect is being referenced in Matthew 24. Since the start of the discourse in Matthew 23:37 onward the theme has been Jerusalem, the Temple, Shabbat, Judea, etc, my money is on the elect of Jacob (Judah and Israel) as per Isaiah 45 and affirmed by Paul in Romans 11. Sure isn't Yeshua or the angels.

I know that some equate anything Yeshua talked about as having something to do with the church, but I don't. And when one gets a real grasp on what the main purpose of the Tribulation period is for, then it clears up any conflicts. Some seem to desperately want to go thru the GT period. Not sure how they see that as comforting, but they must.

No, same conclusion.

There is only one assignment of election at a time.

Before the cross one would be declared righteous and if they stayed righteous to death they were born again at the resurrection of Christ.

In the church age one is born again when they repent.

That will change after the rapture again.

Angels Fall into two groups. Ones that never left God and the fallen Angels. The fallen Angels spend eternity in the lake. Demons are all lost for eternity. No blood for them.

 

[Copperhead]

No, same conclusion.

There is only one assignment of election at a time.

Before the cross one would be declared righteous and if they stayed righteous to death they were born again at the resurrection of Christ.

In the church age one is born again when they repent.

That will change after the rapture again.

Angels Fall into two groups. Ones that never left God and the fallen Angels. The fallen Angels spend eternity in the lake. Demons are all lost for eternity. No blood for them.

If there is only one assignment of election at a time, then does that mean since the church is now elect that Yeshua isn't? After all, YHVH said that Yeshua was His elect in Isaiah 42.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

And does that mean also that there are no elect angels anymore as per Paul in his letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 5:21)?

And regarding whether the Hebrews are still elect or not, Paul seemed to settle that issue in Romans. He starts the discourse on the Hebrews specifically in Chapter 9 and carries it thru Chapter 11.

Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Pertain is present tense. The church was in existence at the time Paul wrote this.

Romans 11:28-29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Now if is irrevocable according to Paul, then how is it as you state that there is only one assignment of election at a time? If the church is the only elect in this present age, then that would mean Israel's election was revoked. And Paul was a liar.

No, I'll stick with the idea that the elect of Matthew 24 is pertaining to the Hebrew people. To many conflicts otherwise. In the present age there is Yeshua the Elect of YHVH, Jacob (Judah and Israel) the elect of YHVH, the Ekklessia (church) the elect of YHVH, and per Paul the elect angels. All 4 elect but distinct. Don't confuse justification and sanctification with election. They are not always synonymous.

 

[Dan57]

People are fooled by nearly anything, especially when they're already looking for and hoping for miracles. Consider those fake evangelistic meetings where the lame get out of wheelchairs and walk. Deception and tricks are eagerly accepted by the gullible.. jmo

 

[CoreIssue]

If there is only one assignment of election at a time, then does that mean since the church is now elect that Yeshua isn't? After all, YHVH said that Yeshua was His elect in Isaiah 42.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

And does that mean also that there are no elect angels anymore as per Paul in his letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 5:21)?

And regarding whether the Hebrews are still elect or not, Paul seemed to settle that issue in Romans. He starts the discourse on the Hebrews specifically in Chapter 9 and carries it thru Chapter 11.

Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Pertain is present tense. The church was in existence at the time Paul wrote this.

Romans 11:28-29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Now if is irrevocable according to Paul, then how is it as you state that there is only one assignment of election at a time? If the church is the only elect in this present age, then that would mean Israel's election was revoked. And Paul was a liar.

No, I'll stick with the idea that the elect of Matthew 24 is pertaining to the Hebrew people. To many conflicts otherwise. In the present age there is Yeshua the Elect of YHVH, Jacob (Judah and Israel) the elect of YHVH, the Ekklessia (church) the elect of YHVH, and per Paul the elect angels. All 4 elect but distinct. Don't confuse justification and sanctification with election. They are not always synonymous.

Only one assignment of election at a time? Where in the world did you get that from?

If you want to go that direction, the Angels who did not rebel were created elect.

Did not take you long to go off topic what Romans 8 says,

Typical Calvinism attempted diversion.

YeshuaIs not elect, he is God incarnate.

The church as individuals. Elect as individuals, not as a group. Same with Israel.

Now try getting back on topic.

Righteousness and justification are indeed distinct. So is salvation.

 

[Copperhead]

Only one assignment of election at a time? Where in the world did you get that from?

No, same conclusion.

There is only one assignment of election at a time.

Suffering from short term memory loss? I think you might want to go get looked at.

I am most definitely not in the Calvanist camp. Now not only do you have a memory loss, but you choose to slander as well. I really shouldn't be surprised.

I showed you the verse from the Tanahk that said without reservation that YHVH stated that Yeshua was His Elect. Isaiah 42 is a well known messianic passage. You choose to ignore it. That is ok too.

One would think you might want to sweep your own porch before you tell others how to sweep theirs.

 

[CoreIssue]

Suffering from short term memory loss? I think you might want to go get looked at.

I am most definitely not in the Calvanist camp. Now not only do you have a memory loss, but you choose to slander as well. I really shouldn't be surprised.

You sure sound like a Calvinist.

 

[CoreIssue]

You sure sound like a Calvinist.

Unless you haven't noticed we live in the church age, not OT Israel. We speak English, not Hebrew. We read a English translation Bible.

 

[Copperhead]

You sure sound like a Calvinist.

in what way? I support the concept of a physical Hebrew people that still yet have a purpose. Calvinist teaching doesn't support that. Calvinist teaching robs the Hebrew people of their own covenants and promises. Paul supports the Hebrew people still having the covenants and promises that were given to their patriarchs, as do I.

Actually, I fall into neither in the Arminian or Calvinist camps. Both positions are somewhat right is what they assert, but both are wrong in what they deny. Like most things, the reality is in the middle.

You would be wise to go study the theology of both camps and get a real handle on that before you decide to label someone as to which camp they are in.

 

[Copperhead]

Unless you haven't noticed we live in the church age, not OT Israel. We speak English, not Hebrew. We read a English translation Bible.

Indeed, the church is the main focus, but that doesn't mean that the Hebrew people are not also in view according to YHVH. The reality is not an either/or thing. There is only one way of salvation, that is for sure, but election is not a synonymous word with justification. It is just what the word means.... elect / chosen / selected / set apart... for a purpose. The Hebrew's purpose has not been annulled just because the entity of the church came on the scene. The Hebrew's purpose has yet to be fully realized. And the culmination of that purpose will be the return of Yeshua. The stage is being set for Israel to fulfill its destiny. The redeemed of the church will not be here to get in the way of that happening like it is now. That is what Daniel's 70th week is all about.

But even with the main focus on the church now, the election of the Hebrew people remains as it has since Abram's name was changed to Abraham and the unconditional covenant given him. Paul clearly stated that in Romans 11.

So then, since the Bible was translated into Latin (during the church age) long before English, does that mean that the English speaking / reading crowd is a bunch of interlopers? Get real. The translated language has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.

 

[Enoch111]

I've always suspected it could be one of or a combination of three things that causes the apostasy.

The apostate will not be among the elect. But the true children of God will not be deceived by Satan's signs and lying wonders.

There are many bogus miracles and miracle workers today. But Christians should not be deceived. The teachings of these miracle workers generally expose them. And their greed for gain is a sure sign that they are not from God.

 

[CoreIssue]

in what way? I support the concept of a physical Hebrew people that still yet have a purpose. Calvinist teaching doesn't support that. Calvinist teaching robs the Hebrew people of their own covenants and promises. Paul supports the Hebrew people still having the covenants and promises that were given to their patriarchs, as do I.

Actually, I fall into neither in the Arminian or Calvinist camps. Both positions are somewhat right is what they assert, but both are wrong in what they deny. Like most things, the reality is in the middle.

You would be wise to go study the theology of both camps and get a real handle on that before you decide to label someone as to which camp they are in.

Israel has a future purpose. But it does not justify you acting like an OT Jew.

Study? 58 years worth.

 

[Copperhead]

Israel has a future purpose. But it does not justify you acting like an OT Jew.

Study? 58 years worth.

Oh, boy. How is it I am acting like an OT Jew? Just because as a Gentile believer in the Jewish Messiah who believes that YHVH is a God who delights in making and keeping His promises? What, because I like using the Messiah's Hebrew name... Yeshua? I don't go to temple on Shabbat so I guess that would count me out.

And while I am not an OT Jew or even remotely act like one, I am honored that you lumped me in with King David, Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. Man, that is heavy duty company right there. Oh, forgot John the Baptist who was an OT Jew that Yeshua said none greater had come before Him. That would include Moses, David, and all the prophets. You say "acting like an OT Jew" as if it were a bad thing. Do you have something against OT Jews? And how did they act that was so bad? David and all the prophets looked forward to Yeshua. All of them recognized salvation was by grace thru faith. Habakkuk really was clear on that.

Years of study doesn't impress me. Quality of study does. Tons of folks study subjects like Economics and still end up with Socialist ideas, which are counter to anything considered sound economics. I know all sorts of folks who have a laundry list of academic titles behind their name who have about as much intelligence and common sense as a lamp post. In the Army we called such folks PX War Heroes. In Texas they say such a person is all hat and no cattle. Clint Eastwood said such folks are a legend in their own mind.

 

[n2thelight]

Mark 13:11
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

The time of this verse is before Pentecost. It is not about tongues. It is to the apostles by Christ before his crucifixion.

Are you serious?Do you not understand (that hour ?)Let me help you,it's the hour of temptation

The verse is ALL about tongues,for that is the next time it shall be spoken,through the Holy Spirit

When all shall hear,this is how those who have been deceived will "come out of her"

 

[Acolyte]

Hmmm.. guess the teaching of the 3 earth ages didn't get out. The elect stayed with our Father when satan and his band of rebel angels rose/fell. They proved their love and loyalty to Him.

If anyone knows of this, could you point me to scripture. In my head I can think of several instances where He says I knew you before you were formed, but the address(es) escape(s) me.

Once I was lost, but now I am found! GIVE GOD THE GLORY!

ps. No need to tear down what I believe, it's past my mind and in my heart. Right beside His HolySpirit.

 

[n2thelight]

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.