When to look for the rapture of the church

[CoreIssue]

You "know" there is 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne Judgement how?

Because the Bible states there is 1000 years between the first and second resurrection.

 

[Naomi25]

I keep hearing that 'not of this world' misinterpreted. It simply means His future physical Kingdom to come on earth is not of this present world time. There are actually 3 world ages taught in God's Word, in 2 Peter 3. We are still in the second one. God's eternal Kingdom is the third one to come, which begins when Jesus returns to take reign over all nations with "a rod of iron" like Revelation says. This present world will be destroyed by fire according to Peter. This is what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed.

Curious. I would think that if Christ meant "my Kingdom is not of this time" he would have said it like that. He could have even been more specific for your purposes, I suppose...'my kingdom is not of this present earth'. 'My kingdom is not of this age', 'my kingdom is not of this old earth' (as opposed to the new earth). But...he said none of that. Instead "my Kingdom is not of this earth" is fairly specific. So...you can claim we're 'misinterpreting' it all you want, but it says what it says. When backed up with verses like Eph 1:20 and even 1 Cor 15:24-25, then I'd say it's you the onus is upon to prove anything differently.

If we are in 'the second age', and there is only one more age to come, it must be the eternal age, not the Millennium. And yes, that fits with scripture. Any reference you find to "this age" is to things temporal, fallen, sinful, passing away. And any reference found to "the age to come" is to things eternal, things imperishable.

Per Rev.20, when Jesus returns, His saints that remained faithful will reign over the nations with Him, for a "thousand years". The end will happen right after the 1,000 years, and that is when Satan is destroyed, and the GWT Judgment happens with death and the wicked cast into the lake of fire. All one need do is open up their Bible to Revelation 20 and read to understand that.

Except, you yourself have exluded this possibility. You say that there is only one more age after this one....where does this 1000 years fit in?
And if, as previously discussed, upon Christ's single return, both just and unjust, both living and dead, are judged and sent into everlasting life or torment, again, where does 1000 years of 'non-eternal, still having sin and death and rebellion' fit into the agenda? It doesn't.

With that view, it would mean to discard the OT histories of the Canaanite peoples that crept in among Israel, and even the Kenite foreigners having becomes scribes in Israel by the time of Jesus' 1st coming. Even some of the high priests in Israel's history were not born of Israel (per Jewish historian Josephus). So no, the "synagogue of Satan" isn't about true Jews at all, meaning bloodline Israel. It's about foreigners who took the religion and ancestry of Judah, which is why the last verse of Zech.14 says in that future time after Jesus' coming there will be no more the Canaanite in the house of God. The children of darkness is who the "synagogue of Satan" represents, for they are even against bloodline Judah! Or have you forgotten about the crept in unawares of Jude 1, the tares of Matt.13?

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. You think the 'synagogue of satan' is people...Gentiles...who came into the Jewish nation and began practicing Jewish faith. You say they are false, children of darkness. Correct?
Because I have to disagree, strongly, with you. Do we not see that even in the OT, that God bought Gentiles into Israel? And as long as they fully observed the law and worshipped YHWY, then they were accepted by God and the Jews. And then, of course, we have the promise to Abraham, right from the start...that the Jews would be a blessing to the Nations. Christ came and told his Disciples to take the good news to the Gentiles. Paul spent chapters and chapters breaking down the wall that stood between Jew and Gentile when it came to being spiritually acceptable in the eyes of God. A Jew, he said, was allowed to keep his observances, as long as he was clear it was Christ alone who saved...and as long as he knew that the Gentiles without said observances were saved by Christ just the same.
This is why this 'synagoge of satan'...who 'thinks they are Jews but are not' points to Jews who still hold to law over faith. Think Pharisees. After all Christ taught and did...after all Paul taught about what it was to be a true Jew...to be a child of promise...a true descendant of Abraham...you still had Jews insisting that bloodline and law was the only thing that put a person in right standing with God. Such a thing in the face of Christ's sacrifice and God's offer of grace is worthy of being called 'synagogue of satan'.

Not if you read Revelation 20. And it was given after... that Matt.25 example of the sheep and goats.

And yet we are still told this judging of living and dead will happen at the same time:

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1

 

[Naomi25]

The phrase "this mortal" is pointing to the soul. That's what is inside the flesh body. It continues after flesh death per Matt.10:28. How is it you are not aware that it is still mortal until one accepts Jesus as their Savior? and that those who's soul is still mortal when Jesus comes are still not destroyed yet? (like those required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship the King, The LORD of hosts? (Zech.14).

Again, let me check what you are saying: mortal is in, if dead, ceases to be? As in, if one does NOT accept Christ, their 'mortal'...soul, ceases to be upon death?
Because, if that's what you're saying, the reason "im not aware" of it, is because it's not biblical.
For example:

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. -Luke 16:22–23

For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption. -Acts 2:27

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:46

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. -Revelation 20:13

So, we can see that the unjust, when dead, are still somewhere...somewhere where they are in torment, being kept for judgment and final 'eternal torment'. So...I see nothing that says that those outside Christ, when they die, cease to be, either before his second coming or after it.

Surely you are not thinking of old Jewish fables like the soul requiring a flesh body just to manifest. Psalms 37 reveals the wicked will perish. Rev.20 with death and hell thrown into the "lake of fire" reveals those things 'destroyed'. So if the wicked are also cast into that "lake of fire" like it says.... So no, I do not believe the actual burning in fire like a piece of bacon forever; I believe it means they are gone everlasting. I actually see the wicked choosing... to perish, because if they can't be their own gods, they don't want to worship The True GOD, and they'd rather perish. God doesn't wish for any to perish, but that all come to repent, like Peter said. That is also why it was Paul's hope that there will be both a resurrection of the just, and the unjust (meaning he wanted the wicked to have opportunity to know the Truth and repent. Not all will be able to hear The Gospel during this present world time.)

Ps 37:9-10
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
KJV

Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV

It's got nothing to do with "requiring" a 'flesh' body to manifest. It's got everything to do with how God made us. He made us to be spirit and flesh. That is why, upon the resurrection, we have a new flesh, reunited with our spirit.
I have no idea what sort of 'flesh' the unjust will have, or need...that's not in my wheelhouse...I don't need to know that. All I know, is what scripture tells me...they do not cease to be. You can throw verses like the ones above at me, but they do nothing to address all the ones that speak of 'eternal torment' or 'eternal punishment'.

I don't see the "lake of fire" event yet until after Jesus reigns with His elect on earth for the "thousand years" of Rev.20, as written. I choose not to ascribe that chapter to men's philosophy.

The division of His sheep from the goats is simply a dividing of God's children apart from the children of darkness when He comes. It is the end of this 'present' world, but not God's eternity yet.

You 'choose not to ascribe it to mens philosophy'? How very...enlightened...of you. But...doesn't change what it says, sorry. We know from 2 Tim 4:1 that the living and dead are judged together at Christ's coming...which merges Matt 25 and Rev 20 together. We also know that in Rev 20 'death' is tossed into the lake of fire...one could say that death is defeated forever. Which we know from 1 Cor 15:23-26 is, again, when Christ comes.
You might want to fall back onto your "Rev 20 is written last" argument, but anyone who can read critically can put these things together and realise they're speaking of the same event.

It's wishful thinking to believe that Paul was only talking about the Church when speaking of God's order for this world and the world to come. It's even a bit conceited to think that way, especially since our Lord Jesus revealed a "resurrection of damnation" for the wicked dead per John 5:28-29.

It's conceited to think Paul was only speaking to the Church? Let me ask you a question....the 'books' Paul wrote....what were they?

 

[Naomi25]

Nothing against what I've said so far. There was a standing temple in Jerusalem when Jesus said that.


How is that in red not... what I've been saying? The true spiritual temple CANNOT be corrupted by any man. But a physical temple can!

If you will recall, I said two things: that indeed, when it comes to Christ, or the Holy Spirit within us, they cannot be corrupted. I also said that, per the scripture below, the Church as a whole is also considered 'the temple of God'...and in that respect, the angle changes considerably:

What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people. -2 Corinthians 6:16

So, we know that even though we have the Spirit within us, it does not make us perfect, and it does not stop us from making mistakes, or following or believing those we should not. That of course does't corrupt the Spirit, it just means we are not yet perfect. And when we are talking about the Church as a whole, we compound that. How easy it is, at times, for a wolf to slip in amongst the sheep. It's enough of a danger that Paul had to warn about it. We see such things and it's effects every day...far more damage is done to the Church by people from the inside...through sin, unrepentant or just by mistakes....goodness knows the effect of an outright enemy!...than from the outside.

 

[Naomi25]

Those little prep false statements don't really work. Just because you're Biblically ignorant of OT and NT Scripture like what I presented in my previous post doesn't mean you can just assign it all as 'making it say whatever one wants'. That's a very Biblically illiterate assumption.

Thus the real difference between those like you and me, is that you've been taught to scrap any Scripture evidence pointing to the future literal sanctuary to be established on earth, while I recognize Scripture about it being established in the future beginning our Lord Jesus' return, and that being the idea of the foundation that Apostle Paul was speaking of... spiritually.

How can I be both biblically illiterate and have been taught to scrap scriptural evidence?
I'm tired of playing word tag with you, we're not coming to any real conclusions and I simply do not have the time to spare on the long posts required to answer. Let's agree to heartily disagree.

 

[Naomi25]

Because the Bible states there is 1000 years between the first and second resurrection.

This might be a validation of your doctrine if the first resurrection in Christ's second coming. However, your problem is that scripture points to the first resurrection being either new birth in Christ, or that moment of death when our spirits go into the presence of the Lord. Either way, that leaves the second resurrection as the event described at Christ's second coming...and that means that the 1000 years is the time before his return.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6

Who are those who 'share in the first resurrection'? Those who escape the second death. Christians.
We know that those who put their faith in Christ pass from death to life:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24

And we know that Christ's Kingdom is now:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

So...if we pass from death to life now...if Christ's Kingdom is now, and we know those In Christ don't suffer the second death are those who participate in the first resurrection....there is a very good biblical argument that the second resurrection is the Rapture...the event when Christ comes and gives us imperishable bodies. That means the millennium is now.

 

[CoreIssue]

This might be a validation of your doctrine if the first resurrection in Christ's second coming. However, your problem is that scripture points to the first resurrection being either new birth in Christ, or that moment of death when our spirits go into the presence of the Lord. Either way, that leaves the second resurrection as the event described at Christ's second coming...and that means that the 1000 years is the time before his return.

Not his second coming, but his coming at the end of the world.

There is another rapture event, another thief in The night and another attack on Jerusalem, this time the Army led by Satan, not the AC.

Followed by the destruction of the heavens and the earth, white throne judgment and the new heaven and earth.

I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beThenheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Second coming Christ.
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Who are those who 'share in the first resurrection'? Those who escape the second death. Christians.

Not what the passage says. These are the marytered tribulation saints.

Weknow that those who put their faith in Christ pass from death to life:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24

And we know that Christ's Kingdom is now:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

So...if we pass from death to life now...if Christ's Kingdom is now, and we know those In Christ don't suffer the second death are those who participate in the first resurrection....there is a very good biblical argument that the second resurrection is the Rapture...the event when Christ comes and gives us imperishable bodies. That means the millennium is now.

Another failed effort to deny the rapture.

 

[Naomi25]

Not his second coming, but his coming at the end of the world.

There is another rapture event, another thief in The night and another attack on Jerusalem, this time the Army led by Satan, not the AC.

Followed by the destruction of the heavens and the earth, white throne judgment and the new heaven and earth.

Oh...I'd just love to see you try and prove that biblically.

 

[Jay Ross]

Because the Bible states there is 1000 years between the first and second resurrection.

Plus the little while Satan is tearing around the globe doing his thing because his time is short, possible 20-30 years in duration. Therefore we have to say that between the first and the second resurrection will be 1020-1030 years. It really depends on the urgency that Satan has.

 

[CoreIssue]

Oh...I'd just love to see you try and prove that biblically.

I and others have already proven. You just refused to listen.

 

[Davy]

You "know" there is 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne Judgement how?

Surely you're not serious with such a question. To know there is a "thousand years" period prior to the GWT Judgment one only needs to read and heed the Rev.20 Scripture which declares it.

You've admitted previously that Revelation is not all chronological. You say above that there is only one coming of Christ. Matt 25 says that "when he comes, then" he will sit on his throne and judge. About the only argument left to you is that the jugdements for the 'living' and the 'dead' are at different times...thus Matt 25 judgement and the GWT judgement are different.

You're obviously making some assumptions in that, things I never said. The 'way' the Book of Revelation is written, it does not have all the events in the chronological order that they happen. That's all I said about that. I didn't say there was no chronological order at all.

Apparently, you don't understand use of the word 'judge' in Scripture. You appear to be wrongly assuming that 'judgment' always means condemnation to being cast into the "lake of fire". Christ's rewards to His servants represents judgments. Just as with a court of law, one who is wronged that sues may be awarded, which is a judgment. So the word doesn't always mean a punishment or sentencing.

When Jesus returns, there will be a judgment involving separation of His sheep from the goats. In John 5:28-29 He said that would involve the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation". The resurrection of life is called the "first resurrection" in Rev.20. Those will reign over the nations with Jesus for that "thousand years" when Satan is locked in his pit prison. All others during that thousand years represents the unsaved, and will be subject to the "second death". Those of the resurrection of damnation will be subject to that "second death". Some souls will then for their first time hear The Gospel, and will believe on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior. Teaching them will be one of the duties of Christ's elect priests (Ezek.44:23). Those unsaved are the "dead" that live not again (spiritually) UNTIL the thousand years is over, as their names WILL later be found in the Book of Life, because they became believers during the thousand years.

Except then we read this verse:

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1

This verse puts the judgement of living and dead AT the appearance of Christ. So...that doesn't give a lot of wiggle room in my opinion.

John 5:28-29 Jesus showed the "resurrection of damnation" also occurs on the day of His coming. When Jesus returns, flesh death is over. The only type of death remaining is the "second death" as written, which is the casting into the future "lake of fire". The resurrection is NOT about getting new flesh bodies. It's about being raised to a "spiritual body", a body like the angels, and heavenly image Paul called it. All... will be in that kind of body after Jesus' return. The difference is that there will be different places of separation after His coming. Satan and the kings will be in the pit. And those in hell will still be there. When the books are opened, all the unsaved are judged, and those who believed on Jesus during the thousand years will be joined to the resurrection of life. But the unsaved that still reject Him will be cast into the "lake of fire" along with hell and death.

I showed you the Zechariah 14 Scripture where those left of the nations that come up against Jerusalem will be required after Christ's return to come up to Jerusalem and worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. You replied nothing... about that proof of the wicked STILL EXISTING AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN.

Ah...now your not getting it. Acts 1 is before Pentecost. That's before the Spirit descended and they understood the real nature of Christ's Kingdom. So...at Acts 1 they were still expecting, like all the other Jews, that when Messiah came, it would be as this great political leader who would expell the Romans and set up this earthly kingdom and sit on David's throne. Jesus told them his Kingdom was not of this earth.

It's the other way around, you're the one not 'getting it'. Jesus promised His 12 Apostles they each would sit upon a throne over one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The very last verse of Ezekiel 48 says the name of the future holy city on earth will be, "The LORD is there." The new Jerusalem is to DESCEND out of Heaven to this earth, which of course has NEVER happened yet. In Ezekiel 48 is the layout of Christ's Kingdom of Israel, the exact future location of each of the 12 tribes of Israel! The end of Isaiah 19 reveals that Egypt, Israel, and Assyria will each be one-third in God's future Kingdom on earth, and that God's Highway will run between them.

Those kind of detailed descriptions are not given in God's Word so people on men's doctrines can just throw them away or turn them into men's philosophy. One who wants to be part of that future Salvation in Christ can agree to it, or be cut off from it. It's each person's choice. There won't be a rebellion a second time.

And, as I pointed out, even at his ascention, the Disciples still didn't understand.

No, they understood what He said to them, that it wasn't for them to know the times or seasons that The Father has put in His Own power (Acts 1:7). In other words, Jesus did not correct them as if His future Kingdom would not be a literal kingdom involving Israel. He only pointed to its re-establishing being something only The Father knows, and why do think that is? It's because it will only happen after Jesus and His elect have reigned over the nations of unsaved with a rod of iron for a thousand years per Rev.20.

But, come Pentecost...which is Acts 2, by the way, we never hear them talking about an earthly kingdom again, or Christ coming to sit on Davids throne. Instead, they throw all their energies into the great commission....growing the kingdom that way. Paul, who tells us was taught all his doctrine from Christ himself, teaches us that Christ is even now ruling and reigning...which fits perfectly with "my kingdom is not of this earth". It also fits perfectly with 1 Cor 15, which tells us that when he returns, it will be because he has put every power and authority under his feet, and on his return, the last enemy, death, will also be defeated.

That idea is pretty much baloney. Christ's Apostles continued teaching about the 'kingdom' after Acts 2. And what Paul said here just dissolves your argument of thinking God's Kingdom is just in the spiritual sense and not in the literal resurrection body sense also:

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Now I put that in bold red to make sure you can see it, so don't just pass over it.

The fact that flesh and blood cannot... inherit "the kingdom of God", with us still being alive in flesh bodies today, means the literal kingdom of God has not yet come on earth. Moreover, Paul directly pointed to a literal, physical kingdom of God by that. It will begin manifesting on earth when Jesus returns and His elect of the "first resurrection" are manifested in eternal bodies like His.

They never dumped the idea? How would you know, if they never spoke of it? They did, however, speak of Christ ruling and reigning now. We do have scripture telling us, clearly, that Christ says his kingdom is "not of this world"...sort of clear, yeah? Wouldn't that mean, then, that's its people like you who are ignoring or wiggling around scriptures to make your thoughts and doctrines fit? Because...what else do you do with these verses? Why is Christ ruling now? Over what? What is the purpose of his ruling now? What Kingdom is he ruling over, and which kingdom is it that he delievers over to the Father at his return, when he's conquered all powers and enemies?

That's right, Christ's Apostles never discarded the idea of a literal, physical restoration of the kingdom of Israel. How stupid would doing that make them right after our Lord Jesus had promised that each one of them would sit upon a throne judging over the 12 tribes of Israel per the Matt.19:28 verse? You're just not thinking, but are drunk on a doctrine of men.

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

That verse Jesus even revealed WHEN Jesus will sit in the throne of His glory. It will be when His Apostles also sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel! That of course means, He is NOT yet at present sitting upon His throne He is heir to! (And it's because that throne is David's throne, and is still here on earth).

 

[Davy]

Curious. I would think that if Christ meant "my Kingdom is not of this time" he would have said it like that. He could have even been more specific for your purposes, I suppose...'my kingdom is not of this present earth'. 'My kingdom is not of this age', 'my kingdom is not of this old earth' (as opposed to the new earth). But...he said none of that. Instead "my Kingdom is not of this earth" is fairly specific. So...you can claim we're 'misinterpreting' it all you want, but it says what it says. When backed up with verses like Eph 1:20 and even 1 Cor 15:24-25, then I'd say it's you the onus is upon to prove anything differently.

I'm not just claiming you are misinterpreting what He said in that, you are doing just that. And it's similar to the Matt.25 sheep and goats that you do the same kind of misinterpretation with, i.e., you leave out relevant Scripture witnesses, like Jesus' future reign over the nations (and His enemies) with His elect with the "rod of iron" (Psalms 2; Rev.2:27; Rev.12:5; Rev.19:15; Rev.20 for the actual time of that reign).

So is our Lord Jesus reigning over all nations today with His elect? Someone would have to be very deluded to think that, especially in many nations outside the Christian west where Islamic radicals are murdering Christians! Even Christians in the west are being subjected to more and more ridicule for their beliefs verifying anyone who says we Christians are NOW ruling with Jesus in His Kingdom over the nations with a rod of iron are a definite nut case!

If we are in 'the second age', and there is only one more age to come, it must be the eternal age, not the Millennium. And yes, that fits with scripture. Any reference you find to "this age" is to things temporal, fallen, sinful, passing away. And any reference found to "the age to come" is to things eternal, things imperishable.

Did you forget about what Paul said in 1 Cor.15:23-28 again? Jesus must... reign, until He has put ALL His enemies under His feet. That has not... happened yet today. And it won't begin until after His second coming. But when He does return, that is when the "day of the Lord" happens, and what did Apostle Peter say will happen on that "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night" (2 Pet.3:10)? He said God's consuming fire will burn the elements of this world along with man's works off the earth. The Millennium sanctuary Jesus will build in Jerusalem on earth, and bring His River and Tree of Life back to earth, and begin healing this earth. But after the thousand years, Satan and the wicked will not see God's eternal new heavens and a new earth. That is when there will be no more temple with the full Godhead having returned to earth.

And you still apparently do not understand about the idea of the resurrection, that the wicked are included in that also. Like Paul said, as in Adam all die, through Christ all shall be made alive. The difference with the raised wicked on the day of Christ's return is that their mortal souls will still be 'liable to die' (actual Greek meaning) at the "second death" after the thousand years reign over all nations by Christ and His elect Church.

Except, you yourself have exluded this possibility. You say that there is only one more age after this one....where does this 1000 years fit in?
And if, as previously discussed, upon Christ's single return, both just and unjust, both living and dead, are judged and sent into everlasting life or torment, again, where does 1000 years of 'non-eternal, still having sin and death and rebellion' fit into the agenda? It doesn't.

The "thousand years" of Rev.20 is for right after Christ's 2nd coming, but before the 'new heavens, and a new earth'. It's not God's Word that is trying to make a requirement that the three world ages fit exactly according to a doctrine of men, which is what you're trying to do. How is it you don't understand that when this present world of flesh bodies is over, with Christ's return, that's not about the world to come? If you want to get technical, the Rev.20 "thousand years" is part of this 2nd world age, but it definitely is not part of this present world, simply because we have not been 'changed' to our spiritual body yet, nor has Jesus returned, nor has God's consuming fire burned man's works off this earth yet, and nor has the resurrection on the last day of this present world happened yet. And nor has the Ezekiel sanctuary ever been built yet, nor has God's River and Tree of Life returned yet spoken of in Ezek.47 with His house manifested in the holy lands. Are you still confused? You shouldn't be if you heed 1 Cor.15:25 and Scripture I showed about Jesus ruling with His elect over the nations with "a rod of iron".

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. You think the 'synagogue of satan' is people...Gentiles...who came into the Jewish nation and began practicing Jewish faith. You say they are false, children of darkness. Correct?
Because I have to disagree, strongly, with you. Do we not see that even in the OT, that God bought Gentiles into Israel? And as long as they fully observed the law and worshipped YHWY, then they were accepted by God and the Jews. And then, of course, we have the promise to Abraham, right from the start...that the Jews would be a blessing to the Nations. Christ came and told his Disciples to take the good news to the Gentiles. Paul spent chapters and chapters breaking down the wall that stood between Jew and Gentile when it came to being spiritually acceptable in the eyes of God. A Jew, he said, was allowed to keep his observances, as long as he was clear it was Christ alone who saved...and as long as he knew that the Gentiles without said observances were saved by Christ just the same.
This is why this 'synagoge of satan'...who 'thinks they are Jews but are not' points to Jews who still hold to law over faith. Think Pharisees. After all Christ taught and did...after all Paul taught about what it was to be a true Jew...to be a child of promise...a true descendant of Abraham...you still had Jews insisting that bloodline and law was the only thing that put a person in right standing with God. Such a thing in the face of Christ's sacrifice and God's offer of grace is worthy of being called 'synagogue of satan'.

Deny it all you want. The "synagogue of Satan" represents Satan's servants, not ignorant, rebellious Jews whom God blinded away from Jesus per Romans 11, that Paul said will eventually be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles is completed.

And no, I'm not talking about all Gentiles. I pointed you to our Lord Jesus' parable of the tares of the field, and to Jude 1, and to Judges 2 & 3, but you apparently don't know that OT history, or you're simply denying it.

God told the children of Israel when they entered the lands of Canaan to completely wipe out certain Canaanite nations, including all their stock. Reason was because of a second irruption of the "sons of God" (Satan's angels in Gen.6) that caused another manifesting of the hybrid race of giants (Rephaim) dwelt among those Canaanites. And Jude 1 reveals God has ordained certain men crept in to the condemnation of working against Christ.

Matt 13:36-39
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
KJV

That's who the "synagogue of Satan" is.

And yet we are still told this judging of living and dead will happen at the same time:

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1

That verse does not specifically tell you all are judged (to perish) on that day of our Lord Jesus' second coming, unless... we account for that 'day' being the idea Peter said in 2 Pet.3 that to God a day is as a thousand years!

 

[Davy]

Again, let me check what you are saying: mortal is in, if dead, ceases to be? As in, if one does NOT accept Christ, their 'mortal'...soul, ceases to be upon death?
Because, if that's what you're saying, the reason "im not aware" of it, is because it's not biblical.
For example:

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. -Luke 16:22–23

For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption. -Acts 2:27

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:46

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. -Revelation 20:13

So, we can see that the unjust, when dead, are still somewhere...somewhere where they are in torment, being kept for judgment and final 'eternal torment'. So...I see nothing that says that those outside Christ, when they die, cease to be, either before his second coming or after it.

You've gone way off the path. The KJV "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:54 per the Greek (thnetos) simply means 'liable to die' (2349). Two changes are involved per 1 Cor.15:54 for death to be swallowed up in victory through Christ. Our flesh (corruptible) must put on incorruption ("spiritual body"), AND... "this mortal" (a liable to die soul) must put on immortality. It's as simple as that, because once the "spiritual body" of Paul is manifest, it doesn't have any other change, because it is the "image of the heavenly" that Paul said we shall also have per 1 Cor.15:49.

So can a "spiritual body", a resurrection body, be subject to die? Yes, that's why for the wicked raised their being raised is a 'resurrection of damnation'. But what's making their 'resurrection' TYPE one involving 'a liable to die' damned condition? Something they have is obviously still subject to death and is still mortal. And per Rev.20, there is a "second death". That is not a death of the flesh, because this flesh age will be over when Jesus comes. Satan and his angels are cast into the future "lake of fire" at the "second death", and they don't have flesh bodies. You ought to be able to understand this.

It's got nothing to do with "requiring" a 'flesh' body to manifest. It's got everything to do with how God made us. He made us to be spirit and flesh. That is why, upon the resurrection, we have a new flesh, reunited with our spirit.
I have no idea what sort of 'flesh' the unjust will have, or need...that's not in my wheelhouse...I don't need to know that. All I know, is what scripture tells me...they do not cease to be. You can throw verses like the ones above at me, but they do nothing to address all the ones that speak of 'eternal torment' or 'eternal punishment'.

Well, the orthodox Jews believe it does. They treat the soul as only being able to manifest as flesh, which of course denies the Eccl.12:5-7 Scripture. Even in John 3 our Lord Jesus showed that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And Eccl.12 shows that when a "silver cord" is severed at death, our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That reveals spirit and flesh are two separate things, and that God made a "silver cord" that joins them together while we are alive, and then separates our spirit from our flesh upon flesh death. So no... we do NOT have a new flesh body in the resurrection. The resurrection is a "spiritual body" type like Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God Paul also taught there.

So you can believe your Jewish traditions all you want, but that don't always make it so.

 

[Davy]

If you will recall, I said two things: that indeed, when it comes to Christ, or the Holy Spirit within us, they cannot be corrupted. I also said that, per the scripture below, the Church as a whole is also considered 'the temple of God'...and in that respect, the angle changes considerably:

What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people. -2 Corinthians 6:16

So, we know that even though we have the Spirit within us, it does not make us perfect, and it does not stop us from making mistakes, or following or believing those we should not. That of course does't corrupt the Spirit, it just means we are not yet perfect. And when we are talking about the Church as a whole, we compound that. How easy it is, at times, for a wolf to slip in amongst the sheep. It's enough of a danger that Paul had to warn about it. We see such things and it's effects every day...far more damage is done to the Church by people from the inside...through sin, unrepentant or just by mistakes....goodness knows the effect of an outright enemy!...than from the outside.

Problem is, you're saying the Church, even in the sense of Christ and The Holy Spirit within us, (actually you mean the foundation of Christ's Church that Paul proclaimed in Eph.2 made up of the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus as The Conerstone), you're actually saying that CAN be corrupted!

No, it cannot! That Foundation, i.e., Christ Himself, is the 'basis' for His Salvation He promised to those who believe on The Father through His Blood shed on the cross. Now if you think that... can be corrupted by ANY man, or angel, or even Satan himself, then you have no place in Christ Jesus, and you are not one of His!

1 Cor 3:17
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
KJV

Paul or course is speaking of the spiritual temple and foundation of Ephesians 2. It is IMPOSSIBLE for any man to corrupt that, and to say it is... is to say that Christ Himself can be corrupted! That's equal to blasphemy against The Holy Spirit, and I feel sorry for those who do that, even in ignorance as you have done!


BEWARE BRETHREN of those with that doctrine of thinking the spiritual temple with Christ Jesus as its foundation can be corrupted by Satan or any other!

Those are not of Christ. They are of the "synagogue of Satan" who make up lies against Christ Jesus!

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

THIS "temple of God" Paul speaks of is NOT the same idea he taught of in Ephesians 2 and 1 Corinthians 3. This 'temple of God' is about a literal, physical Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world during the coming "great tribulation" timing. The false Jews don't want you to understand Paul's warning about their building another temple in today's Jerusalem to fulfill the Daniel 11 and Matthew 24 prophecies of the coming Antichrist that will play Messiah. They want you to believe that coming pseudo-Christ will be our Lord Jesus. It won't be!

 

[Davy]

How can I be both biblically illiterate and have been taught to scrap scriptural evidence?
I'm tired of playing word tag with you, we're not coming to any real conclusions and I simply do not have the time to spare on the long posts required to answer. Let's agree to heartily disagree.

Should you really be asking me that scrap subject, since you obviously scrap the Rev.20 chapter about a literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect over the nations?

Your posts are too long. I agree with you on that.

And I've shown well enough Bible Scripture that proves the Rev.20 "thousand years" of the future after Christ's return, is literal.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

 

[Keraz]

The question is: When to look for the rapture of the church?
The answer is: Never.
A rapture to heaven of the Church is the prevalent belief of the Western Christians today. This is very unfortunate as when it doesn’t happen, many may lose their faith.
The ‘rapture’ is a belief based on assumptions, inferences and pure guesswork:

The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is not Biblical.
1/ Such an idea is not found in the Bible.
2/ Jesus refutes it five times; John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
3/ Unprecedented, why should God remove His people today, when all up until today have been persecuted and martyred.
4/ The prophets have told us what will happen in the end times and how we must endure until the end.
5/ The ongoing dispute of pre, mid, post or anytime rapture, is evidence enough of there being no proper scripture about a 'rapture'.
6/ Jesus said that we Christians could be deceived. He was right!
7/ Peter said that Satan is prowling around looking who he can devour with his lies and Paul says that people will listen to 'nice' stories, turning away from sound teaching.

God has given us the information so we know His Plans for the end times, great Promises of protection and Blessings to His people as they stand firm in their faith thru all that must happen.

 

[Naomi25]

I and others have already proven. You just refused to listen.

Really? You've proven there is two Raptures? To do that, you would have to take the verses that actually speak of the Rapture event...say...1 cor 15:51-55, 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Matt 24:30-31, and prove that they were speaking of DIFFERENT events.
The problem with that is that they don't specify that at all. In point of fact they tell us that this will happen AT Christ's second coming. The time when he judges the living and dead, the just and unjust, defeats death and disolves the heavens.
So...in point of fact, not only have you NOT proven that there are 2 different Raptures, I'd say that the verses you attempt to hang your supposition on deny a Pre-trib Rapture at all.

 

[CoreIssue]

Really? You've proven there is two Raptures? To do that, you would have to take the verses that actually speak of the Rapture event...say...1 cor 15:51-55, 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Matt 24:30-31, and prove that they were speaking of DIFFERENT events.
The problem with that is that they don't specify that at all. In point of fact they tell us that this will happen AT Christ's second coming. The time when he judges the living and dead, the just and unjust, defeats death and disolves the heavens.
So...in point of fact, not only have you NOT proven that there are 2 different Raptures, I'd say that the verses you attempt to hang your supposition on deny a Pre-trib Rapture at all.

You must be an amillennialist.

Think you are skilled in presentation you are not.

 

[Naomi25]

You must be an amillennialist.

Think you are skilled in presentation you are not.

It's got nothing to do with skill or not. It's got nothing to do with what I think of myself either. What its got everything to do with is your ability to present a rational argument that is backed by scripture. Not your own opinion or the moxie to stand behind empty words and bravado it out. Scripture. What does God's word say on the issue. What can you prove God's word says on the issue. And systematically, you claim you've proved your point, but all you do is throw meaningless ideas around that are not backed by scripture at all. And when you attempt to tear down others and their points, you do so with only big words and insults and no scripture. What do we care that you think we're wrong? If you cannot show us clearly and carefully how GOD'S word proves us wrong, then....honestly, you don't have a leg to stand on. This is a Christian forum, not a Dispensational forum. There is not the idea going into a conversation that your view is automatically correct and everyone else must prove themselves. All ideas must come to the table with God's word as proof to back those ideas...in support of them, or in support of their disagreement of other ideas. If you're only here to claim on your own merit that you are right and others are wrong...because...YOU! Then I've got no time for you.

 

[Jay Ross]

It's got nothing to do with skill or not. It's got nothing to do with what I think of myself either. What its got everything to do with is your ability to present a rational argument that is backed by scripture. Not your own opinion or the moxie to stand behind empty words and bravado it out

But he does clothe his posts in bright clothes if nothing else. LOL

"when you've got the moxie, you need the clothes to match"