CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
You "know" there is 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne Judgement how?
Because the Bible states there is 1000 years between the first and second resurrection.
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You "know" there is 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne Judgement how?
I keep hearing that 'not of this world' misinterpreted. It simply means His future physical Kingdom to come on earth is not of this present world time. There are actually 3 world ages taught in God's Word, in 2 Peter 3. We are still in the second one. God's eternal Kingdom is the third one to come, which begins when Jesus returns to take reign over all nations with "a rod of iron" like Revelation says. This present world will be destroyed by fire according to Peter. This is what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed.
Except, you yourself have exluded this possibility. You say that there is only one more age after this one....where does this 1000 years fit in?Per Rev.20, when Jesus returns, His saints that remained faithful will reign over the nations with Him, for a "thousand years". The end will happen right after the 1,000 years, and that is when Satan is destroyed, and the GWT Judgment happens with death and the wicked cast into the lake of fire. All one need do is open up their Bible to Revelation 20 and read to understand that.
Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. You think the 'synagogue of satan' is people...Gentiles...who came into the Jewish nation and began practicing Jewish faith. You say they are false, children of darkness. Correct?With that view, it would mean to discard the OT histories of the Canaanite peoples that crept in among Israel, and even the Kenite foreigners having becomes scribes in Israel by the time of Jesus' 1st coming. Even some of the high priests in Israel's history were not born of Israel (per Jewish historian Josephus). So no, the "synagogue of Satan" isn't about true Jews at all, meaning bloodline Israel. It's about foreigners who took the religion and ancestry of Judah, which is why the last verse of Zech.14 says in that future time after Jesus' coming there will be no more the Canaanite in the house of God. The children of darkness is who the "synagogue of Satan" represents, for they are even against bloodline Judah! Or have you forgotten about the crept in unawares of Jude 1, the tares of Matt.13?
Not if you read Revelation 20. And it was given after... that Matt.25 example of the sheep and goats.
Again, let me check what you are saying: mortal is in, if dead, ceases to be? As in, if one does NOT accept Christ, their 'mortal'...soul, ceases to be upon death?The phrase "this mortal" is pointing to the soul. That's what is inside the flesh body. It continues after flesh death per Matt.10:28. How is it you are not aware that it is still mortal until one accepts Jesus as their Savior? and that those who's soul is still mortal when Jesus comes are still not destroyed yet? (like those required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship the King, The LORD of hosts? (Zech.14).
It's got nothing to do with "requiring" a 'flesh' body to manifest. It's got everything to do with how God made us. He made us to be spirit and flesh. That is why, upon the resurrection, we have a new flesh, reunited with our spirit.Surely you are not thinking of old Jewish fables like the soul requiring a flesh body just to manifest. Psalms 37 reveals the wicked will perish. Rev.20 with death and hell thrown into the "lake of fire" reveals those things 'destroyed'. So if the wicked are also cast into that "lake of fire" like it says.... So no, I do not believe the actual burning in fire like a piece of bacon forever; I believe it means they are gone everlasting. I actually see the wicked choosing... to perish, because if they can't be their own gods, they don't want to worship The True GOD, and they'd rather perish. God doesn't wish for any to perish, but that all come to repent, like Peter said. That is also why it was Paul's hope that there will be both a resurrection of the just, and the unjust (meaning he wanted the wicked to have opportunity to know the Truth and repent. Not all will be able to hear The Gospel during this present world time.)
Ps 37:9-10
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
KJV
Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV
You 'choose not to ascribe it to mens philosophy'? How very...enlightened...of you. But...doesn't change what it says, sorry. We know from 2 Tim 4:1 that the living and dead are judged together at Christ's coming...which merges Matt 25 and Rev 20 together. We also know that in Rev 20 'death' is tossed into the lake of fire...one could say that death is defeated forever. Which we know from 1 Cor 15:23-26 is, again, when Christ comes.I don't see the "lake of fire" event yet until after Jesus reigns with His elect on earth for the "thousand years" of Rev.20, as written. I choose not to ascribe that chapter to men's philosophy.
The division of His sheep from the goats is simply a dividing of God's children apart from the children of darkness when He comes. It is the end of this 'present' world, but not God's eternity yet.
It's wishful thinking to believe that Paul was only talking about the Church when speaking of God's order for this world and the world to come. It's even a bit conceited to think that way, especially since our Lord Jesus revealed a "resurrection of damnation" for the wicked dead per John 5:28-29.
Nothing against what I've said so far. There was a standing temple in Jerusalem when Jesus said that.
How is that in red not... what I've been saying? The true spiritual temple CANNOT be corrupted by any man. But a physical temple can!
Those little prep false statements don't really work. Just because you're Biblically ignorant of OT and NT Scripture like what I presented in my previous post doesn't mean you can just assign it all as 'making it say whatever one wants'. That's a very Biblically illiterate assumption.
Thus the real difference between those like you and me, is that you've been taught to scrap any Scripture evidence pointing to the future literal sanctuary to be established on earth, while I recognize Scripture about it being established in the future beginning our Lord Jesus' return, and that being the idea of the foundation that Apostle Paul was speaking of... spiritually.
This might be a validation of your doctrine if the first resurrection in Christ's second coming. However, your problem is that scripture points to the first resurrection being either new birth in Christ, or that moment of death when our spirits go into the presence of the Lord. Either way, that leaves the second resurrection as the event described at Christ's second coming...and that means that the 1000 years is the time before his return.Because the Bible states there is 1000 years between the first and second resurrection.
This might be a validation of your doctrine if the first resurrection in Christ's second coming. However, your problem is that scripture points to the first resurrection being either new birth in Christ, or that moment of death when our spirits go into the presence of the Lord. Either way, that leaves the second resurrection as the event described at Christ's second coming...and that means that the 1000 years is the time before his return.
Not his second coming, but his coming at the end of the world.
There is another rapture event, another thief in The night and another attack on Jerusalem, this time the Army led by Satan, not the AC.
Followed by the destruction of the heavens and the earth, white throne judgment and the new heaven and earth.
I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beThenheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Second coming Christ.
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Not what the passage says. These are the marytered tribulation saints.Who are those who 'share in the first resurrection'? Those who escape the second death. Christians.
Weknow that those who put their faith in Christ pass from death to life:
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24
And we know that Christ's Kingdom is now:
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36
that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22
So...if we pass from death to life now...if Christ's Kingdom is now, and we know those In Christ don't suffer the second death are those who participate in the first resurrection....there is a very good biblical argument that the second resurrection is the Rapture...the event when Christ comes and gives us imperishable bodies. That means the millennium is now.
Another failed effort to deny the rapture.
Not his second coming, but his coming at the end of the world.
There is another rapture event, another thief in The night and another attack on Jerusalem, this time the Army led by Satan, not the AC.
Followed by the destruction of the heavens and the earth, white throne judgment and the new heaven and earth.
Because the Bible states there is 1000 years between the first and second resurrection.
Oh...I'd just love to see you try and prove that biblically.
You "know" there is 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne Judgement how?
You've admitted previously that Revelation is not all chronological. You say above that there is only one coming of Christ. Matt 25 says that "when he comes, then" he will sit on his throne and judge. About the only argument left to you is that the jugdements for the 'living' and the 'dead' are at different times...thus Matt 25 judgement and the GWT judgement are different.
Except then we read this verse:
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1
This verse puts the judgement of living and dead AT the appearance of Christ. So...that doesn't give a lot of wiggle room in my opinion.
Ah...now your not getting it. Acts 1 is before Pentecost. That's before the Spirit descended and they understood the real nature of Christ's Kingdom. So...at Acts 1 they were still expecting, like all the other Jews, that when Messiah came, it would be as this great political leader who would expell the Romans and set up this earthly kingdom and sit on David's throne. Jesus told them his Kingdom was not of this earth.
And, as I pointed out, even at his ascention, the Disciples still didn't understand.
But, come Pentecost...which is Acts 2, by the way, we never hear them talking about an earthly kingdom again, or Christ coming to sit on Davids throne. Instead, they throw all their energies into the great commission....growing the kingdom that way. Paul, who tells us was taught all his doctrine from Christ himself, teaches us that Christ is even now ruling and reigning...which fits perfectly with "my kingdom is not of this earth". It also fits perfectly with 1 Cor 15, which tells us that when he returns, it will be because he has put every power and authority under his feet, and on his return, the last enemy, death, will also be defeated.
They never dumped the idea? How would you know, if they never spoke of it? They did, however, speak of Christ ruling and reigning now. We do have scripture telling us, clearly, that Christ says his kingdom is "not of this world"...sort of clear, yeah? Wouldn't that mean, then, that's its people like you who are ignoring or wiggling around scriptures to make your thoughts and doctrines fit? Because...what else do you do with these verses? Why is Christ ruling now? Over what? What is the purpose of his ruling now? What Kingdom is he ruling over, and which kingdom is it that he delievers over to the Father at his return, when he's conquered all powers and enemies?
Curious. I would think that if Christ meant "my Kingdom is not of this time" he would have said it like that. He could have even been more specific for your purposes, I suppose...'my kingdom is not of this present earth'. 'My kingdom is not of this age', 'my kingdom is not of this old earth' (as opposed to the new earth). But...he said none of that. Instead "my Kingdom is not of this earth" is fairly specific. So...you can claim we're 'misinterpreting' it all you want, but it says what it says. When backed up with verses like Eph 1:20 and even 1 Cor 15:24-25, then I'd say it's you the onus is upon to prove anything differently.
If we are in 'the second age', and there is only one more age to come, it must be the eternal age, not the Millennium. And yes, that fits with scripture. Any reference you find to "this age" is to things temporal, fallen, sinful, passing away. And any reference found to "the age to come" is to things eternal, things imperishable.
Except, you yourself have exluded this possibility. You say that there is only one more age after this one....where does this 1000 years fit in?
And if, as previously discussed, upon Christ's single return, both just and unjust, both living and dead, are judged and sent into everlasting life or torment, again, where does 1000 years of 'non-eternal, still having sin and death and rebellion' fit into the agenda? It doesn't.
Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. You think the 'synagogue of satan' is people...Gentiles...who came into the Jewish nation and began practicing Jewish faith. You say they are false, children of darkness. Correct?
Because I have to disagree, strongly, with you. Do we not see that even in the OT, that God bought Gentiles into Israel? And as long as they fully observed the law and worshipped YHWY, then they were accepted by God and the Jews. And then, of course, we have the promise to Abraham, right from the start...that the Jews would be a blessing to the Nations. Christ came and told his Disciples to take the good news to the Gentiles. Paul spent chapters and chapters breaking down the wall that stood between Jew and Gentile when it came to being spiritually acceptable in the eyes of God. A Jew, he said, was allowed to keep his observances, as long as he was clear it was Christ alone who saved...and as long as he knew that the Gentiles without said observances were saved by Christ just the same.
This is why this 'synagoge of satan'...who 'thinks they are Jews but are not' points to Jews who still hold to law over faith. Think Pharisees. After all Christ taught and did...after all Paul taught about what it was to be a true Jew...to be a child of promise...a true descendant of Abraham...you still had Jews insisting that bloodline and law was the only thing that put a person in right standing with God. Such a thing in the face of Christ's sacrifice and God's offer of grace is worthy of being called 'synagogue of satan'.
And yet we are still told this judging of living and dead will happen at the same time:
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1
Again, let me check what you are saying: mortal is in, if dead, ceases to be? As in, if one does NOT accept Christ, their 'mortal'...soul, ceases to be upon death?
Because, if that's what you're saying, the reason "im not aware" of it, is because it's not biblical.
For example:
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. -Luke 16:22–23
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption. -Acts 2:27
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:46
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. -Revelation 20:13
So, we can see that the unjust, when dead, are still somewhere...somewhere where they are in torment, being kept for judgment and final 'eternal torment'. So...I see nothing that says that those outside Christ, when they die, cease to be, either before his second coming or after it.
It's got nothing to do with "requiring" a 'flesh' body to manifest. It's got everything to do with how God made us. He made us to be spirit and flesh. That is why, upon the resurrection, we have a new flesh, reunited with our spirit.
I have no idea what sort of 'flesh' the unjust will have, or need...that's not in my wheelhouse...I don't need to know that. All I know, is what scripture tells me...they do not cease to be. You can throw verses like the ones above at me, but they do nothing to address all the ones that speak of 'eternal torment' or 'eternal punishment'.
If you will recall, I said two things: that indeed, when it comes to Christ, or the Holy Spirit within us, they cannot be corrupted. I also said that, per the scripture below, the Church as a whole is also considered 'the temple of God'...and in that respect, the angle changes considerably:
What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people. -2 Corinthians 6:16
So, we know that even though we have the Spirit within us, it does not make us perfect, and it does not stop us from making mistakes, or following or believing those we should not. That of course does't corrupt the Spirit, it just means we are not yet perfect. And when we are talking about the Church as a whole, we compound that. How easy it is, at times, for a wolf to slip in amongst the sheep. It's enough of a danger that Paul had to warn about it. We see such things and it's effects every day...far more damage is done to the Church by people from the inside...through sin, unrepentant or just by mistakes....goodness knows the effect of an outright enemy!...than from the outside.
How can I be both biblically illiterate and have been taught to scrap scriptural evidence?
I'm tired of playing word tag with you, we're not coming to any real conclusions and I simply do not have the time to spare on the long posts required to answer. Let's agree to heartily disagree.
Really? You've proven there is two Raptures? To do that, you would have to take the verses that actually speak of the Rapture event...say...1 cor 15:51-55, 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Matt 24:30-31, and prove that they were speaking of DIFFERENT events.I and others have already proven. You just refused to listen.
Really? You've proven there is two Raptures? To do that, you would have to take the verses that actually speak of the Rapture event...say...1 cor 15:51-55, 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Matt 24:30-31, and prove that they were speaking of DIFFERENT events.
The problem with that is that they don't specify that at all. In point of fact they tell us that this will happen AT Christ's second coming. The time when he judges the living and dead, the just and unjust, defeats death and disolves the heavens.
So...in point of fact, not only have you NOT proven that there are 2 different Raptures, I'd say that the verses you attempt to hang your supposition on deny a Pre-trib Rapture at all.
It's got nothing to do with skill or not. It's got nothing to do with what I think of myself either. What its got everything to do with is your ability to present a rational argument that is backed by scripture. Not your own opinion or the moxie to stand behind empty words and bravado it out. Scripture. What does God's word say on the issue. What can you prove God's word says on the issue. And systematically, you claim you've proved your point, but all you do is throw meaningless ideas around that are not backed by scripture at all. And when you attempt to tear down others and their points, you do so with only big words and insults and no scripture. What do we care that you think we're wrong? If you cannot show us clearly and carefully how GOD'S word proves us wrong, then....honestly, you don't have a leg to stand on. This is a Christian forum, not a Dispensational forum. There is not the idea going into a conversation that your view is automatically correct and everyone else must prove themselves. All ideas must come to the table with God's word as proof to back those ideas...in support of them, or in support of their disagreement of other ideas. If you're only here to claim on your own merit that you are right and others are wrong...because...YOU! Then I've got no time for you.You must be an amillennialist.
Think you are skilled in presentation you are not.
It's got nothing to do with skill or not. It's got nothing to do with what I think of myself either. What its got everything to do with is your ability to present a rational argument that is backed by scripture. Not your own opinion or the moxie to stand behind empty words and bravado it out