The Issue of Calvinism.

[OzSpen]

evidently several more because several still cling to error.

Which error?

 

[Mike Dwight]

Does no one, Ever , Ever care, about the life and times of Calvin? We do Not put Luther through this. That's because Luther is in school and he has his own little narrative and people go, oh ya. John Calvin found clerical celibacy and the monk that Luther left being ,totally against the hierarchy, against a controlling Church that led to nowhere. We are fostering knowledge in every corner, a song in every profession. We are removing the ancient practices, the truer and original it is seems a satire from a Catholic practice, a holy rosary, a hail mary, a confession, a groveling your whole life forgiveness on some steps from a 3rd party? They were meant to build confidently. A confession in that tradition tends to be affirming. Suddenly people know the roots of The Church from the Greek scholars that fled the fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1500 ad making a very specific topic the humanist renaissance, a lost phrase almost. Its basically about active learning opposed to successful memorizations by rote in a Latin school.

From my very specific vantage point, you know, he had a sermon for exactly every chapter of the whole Bible, he made a point of it, and people say, no one has ever translated all of it to English. So put all religious English Calvinists together and they haven't bothered translating a Master's work is what we're saying?

From my specific daily troubles in the tradition, I wonder, if the Reformation founders in Switzerland, rather than being in the tiniest country to create a Reformation, what if he was able to reform all Europe, what amount of the Religious knowledge is found in the integrity of the States that his religion occupied as a Mechanism, or was it actually his religion? See this? There's nominally a Church of England, Scotland, Netherlands, Church of Switzerland, Church of Hungary and they meet to decide issues. Let's say he was in a Roman Empire he despised and made it a Reformed Empire? Just curious for modern times. Well some may notice the identical system before the Pope took absolute control in the Western Europe, notice writing styles and Churches in the Orthodox tradition , As They Existed within the Byzantine empire, with the Armenian Church, all the way into Baltics, or Bulgaria.

 

[OzSpen]

As I see it, all points of TULIP have ample Scripture to back them up.

Anthony,

That's an assertion.

Please provide biblical evidence.for TULIP, while taking into account contrary evidence, including the warning passages about falling away.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I would agree that some verses may SEEM to contradict Calvinism if you don't read them in their context. However, I think that we can also agree that the Scriptures never contradict themselves.

Mjh29,

Do you believe in limited atonement?

Does 1 John 2:2 support limited atonement?

Oz

 

[Preacher4Truth]

God's sovereignty and human responsibility are balancing truths throughout Scripture.

God is responsible for saving his people. Man is responsible for his sin.

 

[Mjh29]

Mjh29,

Do you believe in limited atonement?

Does 1 John 2:2 support limited atonement?

Oz

Yes, and here is why:

1.) The word 'world' here means every nation, not just the Jews. Paul himself said that there is no more Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free, but all people from all walks of life can now partake of the blessings.
2.) There are passages where Christ talks about dying, not for each and every person, but for his sheep, which the Father has given Him. If he died for everyone, why would He then make such a big deal out of saying He came to save "his people" and "his sheep" and not everyone? Elsewhere, we see that Christ does indeed distinguish between sheep [his people] and goats [those who are not]
3.) It cannot be that Christ died for all sins of all men. If He did, all would be in heaven, because even if unbelief is a sin, He would have paid for that sin as well. Christ died for all sins of His people.

Now, this does not limit the amount of people that will be saved. Just because Christ only died for certain people does not in any wise make the number of converts smaller; they are a massive, innumerable group, that will far outweigh the members of Hell. I do not think that salvation is a 'special club' I believe that the vast, vast majority of people, when all is said and done, will be in heaven. I just do not believe in Universal Atonement because it does not fit into the whole of Scriptures, it does not adhere to logic, and is in fact disproved by the actions and words of Christ and the Word as a whole

 

[Mike Dwight]

So once again if I can get in on this conversation, doesn't this directly relate with the scandal of the Catholic Church and their new Vatican and "Basilica of Saint Peter" and the selling of "Indulgences", with enough money you can be Forgiven switch on/off, you go to Heaven today. buy, buy buy. This is in the 1500's. Now we'll blame him because slavedrivers didn't search in the bushes "in every nation" for their poor-liberation-theology. Every US Baptist used to be a Calvinist, while Catholics carry their conqueror's religion anywhere they plundered, where's God choosing the mission, right? There weren't any missions very often.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Yes, and here is why:

1.) The word 'world' here means every nation, not just the Jews. Paul himself said that there is no more Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free, but all people from all walks of life can now partake of the blessings.
2.) There are passages where Christ talks about dying, not for each and every person, but for his sheep, which the Father has given Him. If he died for everyone, why would He then make such a big deal out of saying He came to save "his people" and "his sheep" and not everyone? Elsewhere, we see that Christ does indeed distinguish between sheep [his people] and goats [those who are not]
3.) It cannot be that Christ died for all sins of all men. If He did, all would be in heaven, because even if unbelief is a sin, He would have paid for that sin as well. Christ died for all sins of His people.

Now, this does not limit the amount of people that will be saved. Just because Christ only died for certain people does not in any wise make the number of converts smaller; they are a massive, innumerable group, that will far outweigh the members of Hell. I do not think that salvation is a 'special club' I believe that the vast, vast majority of people, when all is said and done, will be in heaven. I just do not believe in Universal Atonement because it does not fit into the whole of Scriptures, it does not adhere to logic, and is in fact disproved by the actions and words of Christ and the Word as a whole

Exactly. He IS the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not he CAN BE the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. You're correct, "whole world" entails those also who are not Jews, thus every other nation, tongue, and tribe; i.e. "whole world." That is exactly the meaning!

"It is finished." He paid for his people's sins, Matthew 1:21; for His sheep, not goats; John 11:52.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So once again if I can get in on this conversation, doesn't this directly relate with the scandal of the Catholic Church and their new Vatican and "Basilica of Saint Peter" and the selling of "Indulgences", with enough money you can be Forgiven switch on/off, you go to Heaven today. buy, buy buy. This is in the 1500's. Now we'll blame him because slavedrivers didn't search in the bushes "in every nation" for their poor-liberation-theology. Every US Baptist used to be a Calvinist, while Catholics carry their conqueror's religion anywhere they plundered, where's God choosing the mission, right? There weren't any missions very often.

Say what????

 

[Mike Dwight]

You guys just buy the walk-in-the-door God loves you line. I mean sure, he used to open cracks in the earth and swallow you because he felt like it, then he's got new plans, God loves you. Its great and the world is saved. Alright. You can get this from popular Scottish Calvinist culture, can't you? If a man's fate, was meant to be anti-Catholic and anti-jacobite, so a man is fated to be and be doing a certain thing because he's with the Calvin-God program. I mean who decided Good and Evil. Somebody I challenge you to find the words good and evil in the bible. Its an omnipotent Kingdom-force, come on.

School students commonly know the story of Luther is that the Catholic Church was selling indulgences as a superstition that helped make more money. That's where Luther created 95 theses. 80% students in USA got that story and don't know the name Calvin I bet. Calvinism got beat in the Civil War. Its almost an intellectual study to make Britain a blessed lands of non-slaves and Britannia isn't going to share all too easy, we'll see what God says, and not racist, or you're not applying all this to your Calvinism discussion? Or do you think there are scotsman that all go to the same church and half of them are like, I'm damned, I'll keep going out of respect to the House Divided, haha.

 

[CoreIssue]

slan·der
/ˈslandər/
noun

1. 1.
   the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

I love how you say this as though THIS proves your point at all. Any miniscule way to throw mud.

Like a true Christian.

That definition is not legally correct.

It also must involve demonstratable material damage and loss.

 

[Mjh29]

That definition is not legally correct.

It also must involve demonstratable material damage and loss.

Not in this sense. You are trying to damage someone's reputation. Come one, please stop with the jots and tittles and get to the meat of the conversation. Your sticks and stones are doing you no good

 

[Mike Dwight]

There was a major publication from a major Calvinist mission recently that used the Biblical "Call of Macedon" if I may.

"And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. 8 So, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 And when Paula[a] had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them."


The "Call of Macedon" here from Acts 16, meant a number of things for the mission. Asia Minor is Turkey or Anatolia overall, where the mission went through, in fact it shows the primitive and primordial origins of European Man in which "Asia" was the word far East for Turkey. Anyway, in fact, the book would go on to be a convincing pamphlet for winning all Asia by piecemeal, so forget that part. They also had pre-agreed permission from the ruler before arriving. This also seems characteristic of Calvinists from a few occasions! Queen Elizabeth turned down inviting John Knox?
I think the choice of the theme shows God's direction in Careful Care of a mission. I think that's all it means. Does anyone have a list of uninspired martyrs , saints, and people that talked to birds? Francis of Assissi is the most famous catholic in the world and he preached at the birds.

 

[CoreIssue]

Also, the point is, that in Romans 8:30, justification is a result of predestination. So you cannot say that predestination is only unto being completely conformed to the image of Christ. It is also unto being initially declared righteous through faith in Jesus Christ (salvation).

That is a false claim. Predestination is a result of foreknowledge knowledge by God.
Romans 8:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

No translation agrees with you.

New International Version
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

New Living Translation
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

English Standard Version
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Berean Study Bible
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Berean Literal Bible
because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be firstborn among many brothers.

New American Standard Bible
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

King James Bible
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Christian Standard Bible
For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Contemporary English Version
and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so his Son would be the first of many children.

Good News Translation
Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

International Standard Version
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that the Son might be the firstborn among many brothers.

NET Bible
because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

New Heart English Bible
For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And those whom he foreknew, he also fashioned in the likeness of the image of his Son, that he would be The Firstborn of many brethren.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is true because he already knew his people and had already appointed them to have the same form as the image of his Son. Therefore, his Son is the firstborn among many children.

New American Standard 1977
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Jubilee Bible 2000
For unto those whom he knew beforehand, he also marked out beforehand the way that they might be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

King James 2000 Bible
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

American King James Version
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

American Standard Version
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren.

Darby Bible Translation
Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be [the] firstborn among many brethren.

English Revised Version
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Webster's Bible Translation
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Weymouth New Testament
For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers;

World English Bible
For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Young's Literal Translation
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

 

[Waiting on him]

It's all about doctrine; no doctrine, no knowledge of Christ.

Many different doctrines about. How can we tell which are the doctrine of Christ?

 

[Mike Dwight]

That's pretty obsessive CoreIssue. 99% percent of peoples are stuck on why didn't he preknow everybody to be good.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That definition is not legally correct.

It also must involve demonstratable material damage and loss.

You're incorrect still.

Typed or printed lies about a person or their character are libel, and you bear false witness often on here, and frankly are one of the most callow 60's somethings persons I've ever witnessed in a forum.

Slander is spoken lies about another's character. Certainly you do this as well, given your seen character. Several have asked you to end it and at least act converted.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That definition is not legally correct.

It also must involve demonstratable material damage and loss.

We're talking about biblical slander, not litigious slander. You practice the former.

 

[CoreIssue]

Not in this sense. You are trying to damage someone's reputation. Come one, please stop with the jots and tittles and get to the meat of the conversation. Your sticks and stones are doing you no good

Wrong again.

This is a debate and in debates you either us agree with or refute the opinions of problems.

I am making no effort to damage or elevate anyone else's reputation.

It's laughable you would say this when I have no idea what your real name is.

 

[Mjh29]

Wrong again.

This is a debate and in debates you either us agree with or refute the opinions of problems.

I am making no effort to damage or elevate anyone else's reputation.

It's laughable you would say this when I have no idea what your real name is.

But you are making an effort to damage my belief system by calling it a cult and soliciting falsehoods. Man, you cant NOT argue, can you? Could you at least talk about something actually worthwhile?