Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[SovereignGrace]

You are so off base presuming to condemn folk who profess faith in Christ but who do not subscribe to your version of events. What hypocricy to wrongly accuse others of working their way to heaven because they "choose to follow Christ" and trust in His grace and mercy but then turn around and claim they are dead in their sin still because despite their profession of Christ you decide they are lost because you judge God hasn't elected them! What makes you think God had elected you? On what basis do you think you are converted? What evidence do you offer as proof that you are among this special "elect of God"? Because of your Calvinist belief? You are trusting in your belief to be saved?
Is not Christ the saviour and able to save to the uttermost anyone who calls upon His name?

Lazarus was not, is not, immortal. Only God is immortal.


The Bible says no such thing. Jesus says there are two resurrections. One to life, one to condemnation. Those resurrected to commendation experience the second death.


KJV John 11
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


KJV Romans 10
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
While Paul says faith comes through hearing the word of God, he is not saying faith comes only by the word of God.
Surely you aren't suggesting God incapable of instilling faith in someone through other means? You are limiting God to His word yet proclaim Him as sovereign?

No, faith comes from hearing the word of God.[Romans 10:17] God has chosen to justify the nations(heathens in KJV) by faith.[Colossians 3:8] We are justified(declared righteous before God) by faith.[Romans 5:1] Are there other ways God grants faith? No. Where does it say God instills faith by other means? I limit God in nothing. However, God is bound by His word and that word tells us He grants faith via His word.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What I would like to know is how does a Calvinist know he is saved if he had no part to play in the decision? If the Calvinist was not required to accept the gift... If he was not obligated to choose to accept or reject... How does he know he has it?

And if the non-Calvinists have free will, how do they know they didn’t make the wrong choice when they chose?

Listen, the dead don’t reach out and receive the gift. It’s only after the new birth takes place they take hold of this gift. When they’re quickened to life, they exercise faith and repentance and are saved.

 

[marksman]

The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time.
If Jesus was not the mediator and surety from before the creation of the world, not one sinner would be saved anywhere at any time. Not one. Zero,nada.
If God had not had mercy on a multitude of sinners,electing each of them there would be no one saved as no one seeks God, no not one.psalm14:1-3,

You said, "The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time".

If the teaching....what do you mean by that?

Election is not unconditional as the scripture says....Repent and be baptised and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If you don't repent and are not baptised then you don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So it is conditional.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You said, "The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time".

If the teaching....what do you mean by that?

Election is not unconditional as the scripture says....Repent and be baptised and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If you don't repent and are not baptised then you are not saved. So it is conditional.

Sure it’s unconditional. Seeing that even repentance itself is a gift.

 

[marksman]

Sure it’s unconditional. Seeing that even repentance itself is a gift.

repentance is a gift?

Where does it say in scripture that repentance is a gift?

 

[SovereignGrace]

repentance is a gift?

Where does it say in scripture that repentance is a gift?

2 Timothy 2:25, Acts of the Apostles 5:31, Acts of the Apostles 11:18, Romans 2:4.

 

[Mjh29]

And that is why the Gospel must be preached (accompanied by power of the Holy Spirit). But you still don't get it, neither do you believe in, or accept, the power of the Gospel, even though Scripture tells you that it is indeed the power of God unto salvation. That's called pure UNBELIEF.

I do believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I just believe it is God who works this power in us, not ourselves. I do not believe that reading the Scriptures will do anything to anyone unless God first effects them and opens their eyes. I am not denying the power of the Gospel, I am denying the power of man.

And that is why the Gospel must be preached (accompanied by power of the Holy Spirit). But you still don't get it, neither do you believe in, or accept, the power of the Gospel, even though Scripture tells you that it is indeed the power of God unto salvation. That's called pure UNBELIEF.

I do believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I just believe it is God who works this power in us, not ourselves. I do not believe that reading the Scriptures will do anything to anyone unless God first effects them and opens their eyes. I am not denying the power of the Gospel, I am denying the power of man.

You agree HYPOTHETICALLY, otherwise you would believe that it is the Gospel itself under the power of the Spirit which changes the hearts of men to receive Christ.

It is almost as though we have forgotten that the Holy Spirit IS God. Yes, I agree; under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who opens the eyes and ears of the sinner, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. But you would never be able to pick up that book and read or listen to that sermon and believe if God did not first open your eyes to the truth. God does the saving though. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. It is He who saved, and yes the medium He uses is His word.

1. There are two very significant truths in Romans 9: (1) if unconditional election were true, every Jew would have been saved and (2) Paul would not have been so heavy-hearted for his Jewish brethren if they had simply believed the Gospel, and received Christ as their Messiah

1.) You are already Eisegeting. You have taken what you think, and plowed it into the verses before you even began to read them.
2.) Paul was so heavy hearted for his brethren because he knew that they were still denying the Savior and trying to earn their way into heaven [conditional election].
Romans 9:6

2. Romans 9 also tells us that God elects specific individuals for specific purposes, which fits in with His plans and purposes (NOT FOR SALVATION):

ABRAHAM ELECTED OVER LOT
ISAAC ELECTED OVER ISHMAEL
JACOB ELECTED OVER ESAU
MOSES ELECTED OVER AARON (TO LEAD ISRAEL)

But you refuse to read the part where Paul says "before they had done good or evil." God was not holding something against them that they had not yet done.
Romans 9:11 [NOT of works; this verse clearly says the opposite of what you are saying]

3. Furthermore, there are some wicked individuals who are elected to show God's wrath against sin, because of their unrelenting wickedness, e.g. the Pharaoh who opposed Moses and God. It is Pharaoh who repeatedly hardened his heart, after which God hardened his heart so that he was damned for eternity.

And yet this is clearly against what the verse is says:

1.) Again, the chapter says multiple times that this election is not based on foreseen action
Romans 9:15-16

2.) God hardened Pharaoh's heart, not the other way around, according to this passage.
Romans 9:18

And yet again we see eisegesis; the vast majority of your post was you telling me what you think, not what the Scriptures say; this causes a multitude of problems. You are not reading these passages at face value, nor are you reading them with the whole of the rest of Scripture in mind. You are taking what you think, and trying to apply it to these passages that clearly say otherwise.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I just believe it is God who works this power in us, not ourselves. I do not believe that reading the Scriptures will do anything to anyone unless God first effects them and opens their eyes. I am not denying the power of the Gospel, I am denying the power of man.



I do believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I just believe it is God who works this power in us, not ourselves. I do not believe that reading the Scriptures will do anything to anyone unless God first effects them and opens their eyes. I am not denying the power of the Gospel, I am denying the power of man.



It is almost as though we have forgotten that the Holy Spirit IS God. Yes, I agree; under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who opens the eyes and ears of the sinner, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. But you would never be able to pick up that book and read or listen to that sermon and believe if God did not first open your eyes to the truth. God does the saving though. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. It is He who saved, and yes the medium He uses is His word.



1.) You are already Eisegeting. You have taken what you think, and plowed it into the verses before you even began to read them.
2.) Paul was so heavy hearted for his brethren because he knew that they were still denying the Savior and trying to earn their way into heaven [conditional election].
Romans 9:6



But you refuse to read the part where Paul says "before they had done good or evil." God was not holding something against them that they had not yet done.
Romans 9:11 [NOT of works; this verse clearly says the opposite of what you are saying]



And yet this is clearly against what the verse is says:

1.) Again, the chapter says multiple times that this election is not based on foreseen action
Romans 9:15-16

2.) God hardened Pharaoh's heart, not the other way around, according to this passage.
Romans 9:18

And yet again we see eisegesis; the vast majority of your post was you telling me what you think, not what the Scriptures say; this causes a multitude of problems. You are not reading these passages at face value, nor are you reading them with the whole of the rest of Scripture in mind. You are taking what you think, and trying to apply it to these passages that clearly say otherwise.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I just believe it is God who works this power in us, not ourselves. I do not believe that reading the Scriptures will do anything to anyone unless God first effects them and opens their eyes. I am not denying the power of the Gospel, I am denying the power of man.



I do believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I just believe it is God who works this power in us, not ourselves. I do not believe that reading the Scriptures will do anything to anyone unless God first effects them and opens their eyes. I am not denying the power of the Gospel, I am denying the power of man.



It is almost as though we have forgotten that the Holy Spirit IS God. Yes, I agree; under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who opens the eyes and ears of the sinner, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. But you would never be able to pick up that book and read or listen to that sermon and believe if God did not first open your eyes to the truth. God does the saving though. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. It is He who saved, and yes the medium He uses is His word.



1.) You are already Eisegeting. You have taken what you think, and plowed it into the verses before you even began to read them.
2.) Paul was so heavy hearted for his brethren because he knew that they were still denying the Savior and trying to earn their way into heaven [conditional election].
Romans 9:6



But you refuse to read the part where Paul says "before they had done good or evil." God was not holding something against them that they had not yet done.
Romans 9:11 [NOT of works; this verse clearly says the opposite of what you are saying]



And yet this is clearly against what the verse is says:

1.) Again, the chapter says multiple times that this election is not based on foreseen action
Romans 9:15-16

2.) God hardened Pharaoh's heart, not the other way around, according to this passage.
Romans 9:18

And yet again we see eisegesis; the vast majority of your post was you telling me what you think, not what the Scriptures say; this causes a multitude of problems. You are not reading these passages at face value, nor are you reading them with the whole of the rest of Scripture in mind. You are taking what you think, and trying to apply it to these passages that clearly say otherwise.

They honestly believe the power of salvation resides within them. That at any moment they can invoke this power and be saved. That’s not the case at all. No one is saved w/o faith. The lost do not have faith residing in themselves, somewhere residing in them dormant, waiting to be activated at the drop of a hat.

#itjustainthappening

 

[bbyrd009]

No, faith comes from hearing the word of God.

I hear this said a lot, and it is not true, nor what can be Quoted. Not meaning to nitpick ok, but when you start a post with a misquote the rest kinda goes by the way

 

[SovereignGrace]

I hear this said a lot, and it is not true, nor what can be Quoted. Not meaning to nitpick ok, but when you start a post with a misquote the rest kinda goes by the way

Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing. I am not making this up out of thin air.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sure it’s unconditional. Seeing that even repentance itself is a gift.

Lol, that part you wanna take literally right. Shouldn't be too hard to see "stay here for the present" in that imo. So then repentance is a "gift," fine, and hopefully your mind will be open to "change your mind" ok, same "gift" right

 

[SovereignGrace]

Lol, that part you wanna take literally right. Shouldn't be too hard to see "stay here for the present" in that imo. So then repentance is a "gift," fine, and hopefully your mind will be open to "change your mind" ok, same "gift" right

2 Timothy 2:25 couldn’t be any clearer.

 

[bbyrd009]

Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing. I am not making this up out of thin air.

no, you're fixing it, and now I agree, faith does come by hearing, according to Scripture, imo.

 

[SovereignGrace]

no, you're fixing it, and now I agree, faith does come by hearing, according to Scripture, imo.

And I would say reading it would bring faith, too, seeing many are deaf. What I mean is faith is centered upon the word of God. Faith comes solely through it, whether by hearing or reading it.

 

[bbyrd009]

2 Timothy 2:25 couldn’t be any clearer.

So Scripture is a buffet and you're on a diet, and "change your mind" won't fit on that little salad plate you got, fine. I'm not going to pursue your deflections for the rest of the day, have a good one ok

And I would say reading it would bring faith, too, seeing many are deaf. What I mean is faith is centered upon the word of God. Faith comes solely through it, whether by hearing or reading it.

"Reading" the Word, Jesus already. If you could Read even the Bible you would already know better wadr

they heard the Word and then searched the Scriptures to see

Look I don't mean you are imo intentionally evil or anything, just set on a Tomorrow that you believe serves you and so therefore deaf to any truth on the matter, for now anyway. As you say, rebound is a gift. Now imo what you are so eagerly gliding over is that that means it is free, where once it literally was not, confession used to cost money, etc, but you are wadr not hearing this part right now
either. So have the last word, and a good day. Nice avatar btw

 

[bbyrd009]

Can't really do it on this gadget, but the definitions of pneuma and rhema are not like hard to access or anything. Dismiss anyone entirely who conflates them to you imo, they are antichrist when they do this

And it isn't like it is hard to detect, they will always either be misquoting Scripture, or Quoting it correctly and warping the interp, deflecting or disengaging when you make an obvious point that they have no reply to, bc of course they have never confessed anything in their lives, and when they do confess it comes out sounding like "I'm sorry you don't understand" lol. I was raised by these idiots, these are my parents, so pardon me if I have little patience for willingly blind and deaf calvinists, all looking for rewards for what they should have been doing anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

"And if the non-Calvinists have free will, how do they know they didn’t make the wrong choice when they chose"

the stupid, it hurts.
A four year old could follow this to it's obvious conclusion for a guffaw, I mean pls? What? "I have no choices that I can even make, choice is an illusion?" ya, I wanna get engaged with that and see if I can uncover any truth, huh? Jesus, I gotta go take a shower now. Greeks
,

not even trying to hide it either; proud of it even. Retards in funeral garb who will be the winners no matter what. This is how we got Trump btw, bc clowns

Looking for the one where the Bankruptcy King is walking out of court declaring "winner" after he got his ass handed to him...unfortunately he does it so often I'm not sure which one it is, I got like 50 choices lol. Got like a million hits for "trump declares winning after losing" Try it and see!

 

[CoreIssue]

[QUOTE="brakelite, post: 534046, member: 6216"

The Bible says no such thing. Jesus says there are two resurrections. One to life, one to condemnation. Those resurrected to commendation experience the second death.
[/QUOTE]

Hebrews 9:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

 

[Jun2u]

You are so off base presuming to condemn folk who profess faith in Christ but who do not subscribe to your version of events. What hypocricy to wrongly accuse others of working their way to heaven because they "choose to follow Christ" and trust in His grace and mercy but then turn around and claim they are dead in their sin still because despite their profession of Christ you decide they are lost because you judge God hasn't elected them!

Please note the words I have bolded and underlined to show that it is you who is the hypocrite, and not able to understand the tenets of Scripture, and teach heresy!!

You are in error when you teach that anyone can “work” their way to heaven and “choose” for Jesus. Consider Ephesians 2:9, John15:16, and Romans 3:10-11 that declares your teachings are dung. Now who is being presumptuous? Practice what you preach!!

What evidence do you offer as proof that you are among this special "elect of God"? Because of your Calvinist belief? You are trusting in your belief to be saved?

No, but because of what God has declared in Rom 8:1. There are about 4100 different Protestant denominations in the world. Calvin and the reformed persuation has better understood the true Gospel than the rest of the denominations of the world. That’s not arrogance but a blessing. The Lord knows His sheep and the sheep follow Him

Is not Christ the saviour and able to save to the uttermost anyone who calls upon His name?

And, that’s where the error of teaching lies. The fundamental principle is that NO ONE, No, NOT ONE, that seeks after God. If no one then who will call upon His name? NONE!!!

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (Proverbs 14:12).

To God Be The Glory