Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You quoted my response to your OP.

What was the Lord referring to specifically? Or do you think I am too daft to comprehend your answer, LoL.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)

The religious leaders over Israel when Jesus lived among them were like these servants. God had set them over His other servants, the Israelites, who were to display the goodness of God to the world.

But instead of nourishing them, the leaders enriched themselves, and tying up heavy burdens for others to bear without lifting a finger to help them, oppressed them. Accusing others as sinners, they made themselves out as righteous. They were hypocrits.

They didn't like Jesus' timing. "They will take away our place, and our nation!" They liked what they had, and they didn't want God's arrival to take that away. No! It's not the Messiah! Kill him!

Emmissaries from the Master came under Titus of Rome, and they were appointed their place, what Jesus had cried over when He foresaw their destruction when He came to Jerusalem.

The one who is faithful with what they are given will be given more. Those who serve themselves from others will lose even what they have.

Jesus tells it like an easterner speaking of tyrants who would slice a man in two. There will be no mercy and no pity in the day these evil men are judged.

Who is that wise servant, who God has appointed to give nourishment to God's other servants? Happy that one is when that's what he's doing when his Master arrives!

Much love!
Mark
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who is that wise servant, who God has appointed to give nourishment to God's other servants? Happy that one is when that's what he's doing when his Master arrives!

Ok, so you are reading the passage prophetically as making reference to the coming destruction of Jerusalem. That at least fits the context of Matthew 24 through 25 somewhat. But by this last statement you make it sound as if theses words were addressed to the apostles, yes? If the opening words were being addressed to the apostles, then the parable was about them, not the Jewish leadership of Israel.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I've never liked that phrase, agree to disagree.

Ephesians 4 tells us that reaching unity in faith and knowledge of Jesus is what enables us to begin to build each other up in love. We of course must walk in love with each other as we sort through misunderstandings (which is what disagreements over Scripture are) over what God meant. But I don't think it's something that children of God can't do.

What are your thoughts about Jesus' teaching concerning the Law in the Sermon on the Mount? If the Law does include the thoughts of the heart, then not just abusing and not abusing the church would be violations of the Law, but the underlying evil motivations would be the violations of the Law.

Would that not then mean that the pastor who lusts for a congregant is a Lawbreaker? The man angry because that so and so got my parking spot, now I have to park in the other lot! Ahhh! Murderer!

It becomes about who and what we are and do.

For me, it's a matter of what God has done, and what we have become.

Much love!
Mark
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What are your thoughts about Jesus' teaching concerning the Law in the Sermon on the Mount? If the Law does include the thoughts of the heart, then not just abusing and not abusing the church would be violations of the Law, but the underlying evil motivations would be the violations of the Law.

By "Mosaic law" I was referring more specifically to ritualistic laws, so my fault for not clarifying things further; laws like circumcision, those against eating unclean foods, strict observance of sabbaths and holy days, that sort of thing.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok, so you are reading the passage prophetically as making reference to the coming destruction of Jerusalem. That at least fits the context of Matthew 24 through 25 somewhat. But by this last statement you make it sound as if theses words were addressed to the apostles, yes? If the opening words were being addressed to the apostles, then the parable was about them, not the Jewish leadership of Israel.

It's a very very good question to ask . . . who then is that wise servant? Who can be a wise servant? The is a servant whom God has set over His other servants to give them nourishment.

It's cool, I'm listening right now . . . "When Christ shall come, with shout of acclamation, what joy shall fill my heart!"

God wants us to live our lives looking towards the return of Jesus. There are many ways He teaches that in Scripture. By directly stating it, "looking forward and hastening the coming . . .", or here, this is very good thing, that you whom God has given to feed the others be busy at the work.

Whatever works God has given you to do be busy about it.

This was Jesus' question, "who then is a faithful and wise servant?" I think it's a question the hearer answers. Jesus describes what that servant is like, and also tells what he is not to be like, and the respective ends of each, the faithful and wise to joy, and the abusive to destruction.

To me, it comes down to this . . . Who am I? Am I going to be faithful and wise, or will I beat the other servants, and serve my fleshy desires? To me, this comes across as a question asked generally. Any servant, appointed by God to this work, this is what you are to be.

Much love!
Mark
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hidden In Him

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
By "Mosaic law" I was referring more specifically to ritualistic laws, so my fault for not clarifying things further; laws like circumcision, those against eating unclean foods, strict observance of sabbaths and holy days, that sort of thing.

OK, so could you clarify for me what you are saying here?

What I think I'm hearing is, the Mosaic Law is limited to the ceremonial aspects of the Law, while the moral and religious aspects are held differently.

Abusing other believers and not forgiving go beyond the breaking of the Law, even when considering that the Law includes those inside desires and motives, not just the actions.

And as these are worse than breaking the Law, they will cost someone their salvation.

Is this right?

Much love!
mark
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is also an interesting post. Yes, I think He did know they wouldn't betray Him. But that's not taking away from the possibility that He was using this teaching to make sure of it. If not, then He would have been teaching right past them to every other Christian leader who would come after them, but I personally think it was a safeguard to make sure they didn't as well.

Luke 22:
31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

33 But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”

34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

It is not that we cannot fail, but it is the same as Paul's turning someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. The destruction of the flesh is the destruction of the carnal nature, not physical death. When that person returns to the Lord, learning they can do nothing in their own strength and repents, THAT is when the empowering baptism of the Holy Spirit can happen.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The destruction of the flesh is the destruction of the carnal nature, not physical death.
That is incorrect. The destruction of the flesh is literally the destruction of the physical body -- either through disease or through death. Satan and his demons are shown to cause diseases and disabilities in Scripture.
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What I think I'm hearing is, the Mosaic Law is limited to the ceremonial aspects of the Law, while the moral and religious aspects are held differently.

Well, no actually. It's my fault, but I was assuming that ritual and ceremonial law would be read into what I was saying. To be accurate, Mosaic law refers to the entire law of Moses.
Abusing other believers and not forgiving go beyond the breaking of the Law, even when considering that the Law includes those inside desires and motives, not just the actions.

And as these are worse than breaking the Law, they will cost someone their salvation.

Is this right?

No... or at least that's not the way I would put things.... They essentially break covenant with God altogether, not just one or several of His laws. The breaking of the law results in sin and death, but the law of life in Christ Jesus has made us free of that law, so we will no longer die for committing sins that are "not unto death." But there are a few that completely break covenant with God, and I believe this is one of them.

I liken it to the following analogy, so tell me what you think. This analogy is not perfect, but it contains several of the same elements:

In our judicial systems, when a court wants to exercise leniency against someone who has committed a criminal act in hopes that they will just amend themselves, they put the perpetrator on probation. He is not given a long list of things to do, just a few, such as having to take periodic drug tests, check in by phone every week, or not leave the State, things like that. The sentence of jail time for the criminal is circumvented, much like our committing sins against God get atoned for when we place our faith in Christ as our atoning sacrifice (note: Atonement is somewhat different, hence the analogy is not perfect, but stick with me here). If the perpetrator can just meet just a few conditions, and likewise the believer, he will never be punished for his crimes. But if the criminal returns to committing criminal acts, his probation is revoked and he pays the price for what he has done.

Now with the believer, if he commits a normal sin that is "not unto death," he has an Advocate with the Lord and can simply judge himself over it, repent of it, and move on with God. But if a believer commits a sin that is severe enough as to break his very covenant with God (similar to a criminal breaking the agreement made between he and the judge that put him on probation), suddenly the grace that was bestowed is no longer applicable. He will now do jail time for breaking not only the law, but the agreement he made with the court.
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, no actually. It's my fault, but I was assuming that ritual and ceremonial law would be read into what I was saying. To be accurate, Mosaic law refers to the entire law of Moses.


No... or at least that's not the way I would put things.... They essentially break covenant with God altogether, not just one or several of His laws. The breaking of the law results in sin and death, but the law of life in Christ Jesus has made us free of that law, so we will no longer die for committing sins that are "not unto death." But there are a few that completely break covenant with God, and I believe this is one of them.

I liken it to the following analogy, so tell me what you think. This analogy is not perfect, but it contains several of the same elements:

In our judicial systems, when a court wants to exercise leniency against someone who has committed a criminal act in hopes that they will just amend themselves, they put the perpetrator on probation. He is not given a long list of things to do, just a few, such as having to take periodic drug tests, check in by phone every week, or not leave the State, things like that. The sentence of jail time for the criminal is circumvented, much like our committing sins against God get atoned for when we place our faith in Christ as our atoning sacrifice (note: Atonement is somewhat different, hence the analogy is not perfect, but stick with me here). If the perpetrator can just meet just a few conditions, and likewise the believer, he will never be punished for his crimes. But if the criminal returns to committing criminal acts, his probation is revoked and he pays the price for what he has done.

Now with the believer, if he commits a normal sin that is "not unto death," he has an Advocate with the Lord and can simply judge himself over it, repent of it, and move on with God. But if a believer commits a sin that is severe enough as to break his very covenant with God (similar to a criminal breaking the agreement made between he and the judge that put him on probation), suddenly the grace that was bestowed is no longer applicable. He will now do jail time for breaking not only the law, but the agreement he made with the court.

Not according to James 2 and Romans 8.

God foreknew he would love him before any of us were born. At that point we were predestined all the way to glorification.

Sorry your probation example is false. osas.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What emotions? I was simply pointing out that the context of the verse suggests that "all flesh" doesn't mean that God is going to pour out His power to walk in supernatural gifts upon every evil sinner in the world, it means that He will pour out HIs Spirit upon every believer from the very young to the very old. I think your interpretation is completely bizarre and illogical, Scott, but I wasn't being emotional.
Your reaction was pretty telltale. No one wants to think that of God, that he would give his power to evil men also. But whether you look at the news or the scriptures, it is obvious that he does:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Calamity (evil) and moral depravity (evil) are two different things. You make out God to be a Sinner.

No. That does not set well.
I didn't say anything about "moral depravity (evil)", I just quoted the scriptures. But it is obvious, since you mention it, that it is you who have imagined the words to mean something more than is written. But you are not allowing for God to be in control of all things, even evil:

"Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?"
11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.
" John 19:10-11

"Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 6:70
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your reaction was pretty telltale. No one wants to think that of God, that he would give his power to evil men also. But whether you look at the news or the scriptures, it is obvious that he does:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

No it is wrong.

God gave everyone freewill choice. You cannot choose to love if you cannot choose to hate. You cannot choose good if you cannot choose evil.

God does use evil to accomplish good. The Bibles loaded with examples.

There was no darkness at the beginning of time. But God formed it and wrapped it around your to cover the evil done by Satan and the fallen Angels in the war in heaven.

Notice the verse contrasts evil peace.

Allowing evil is not the same as empowering evil men.

God will not empower the AC, Satan and the false prophet in the tribulation. He will allow them to function without restraint.

I know that sounds like nonsense to many, but that's reality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite and marks

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I didn't say anything about "moral depravity (evil)", I just quoted the scriptures. But it is obvious, since you mention it, that it is you who have imagined the words to mean something more than is written. But you are not allowing for God to be in control of all things, even evil:

"Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?"
11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.
" John 19:10-11

"Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 6:70

I thought you were saying that God gave the Holy Spirit to all people, in the righteous to do greater righteousness, and to the evil to do greater evil. Did I misunderstand?

Yes, you quoted the Scriptures, and what do they mean?

Much love!
mark
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Watering will cause both a good plant or a poisonous plant to grow. Likewise, power (or spirit) supercharging evil or good in ("all") the world, is all the more evil or good.

Ok, let's go back to this.

Do you not mean here that God gave the Holy Spirit to every person, good or evil, and that His Holy Spirit causes everyone to flourish in either their good or evil?

Is this not what you are saying?

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God will not empower the AC, Satan and the false prophet in the tribulation. He will allow them to function without restraint.

Specifically, Satan empowers the beast, NOT the Holy Spirit.

You know, Jesus told the pharisees that they were in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit by saying that the spirit empowering Jesus was an unclean spirit.

Does the same apply for those who say the spirit empowering antichrist is the Holy Spirit?

Much love!
mark
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is incorrect. The destruction of the flesh is literally the destruction of the physical body -- either through disease or through death. Satan and his demons are shown to cause diseases and disabilities in Scripture.

Let's see your scriptural example of someone who has died from such a curse to physical death. Unfortunately you are not rightly dividing the meaning of flesh. It always surprises me when Christians don't know that the carnal nature is called "flesh." There are two meanings for flesh. The carnal nature which walks after the things of the flesh vs. the physical body. Paul never condemned someone in gross sin to physical death, but only for repentance which causes our nature to be born again of the Spirit - the old carnal nature is destroyed, making us dead to sin - the purpose of walking in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. 2 Read the rest of the verse. It is so he could be saved. That is because of repentance. If Paul needed to curse someone in such gross sin, his soul would not be saved. Anyone who sins is a slave to sin and cannot abide in the house forever. Only someone whom Jesus frees from sin (through the death of the carnal nature) is called a son and will abide forever. John 8:34-36

Romans 8:5-10
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 5:
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 2:
5 But if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me, but all of you to some extent—not to be too severe. 6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No it is wrong.

God gave everyone freewill choice. You cannot choose to love if you cannot choose to hate. You cannot choose good if you cannot choose evil.

God does use evil to accomplish good. The Bibles loaded with examples.

There was no darkness at the beginning of time. But God formed it and wrapped it around your to cover the evil done by Satan and the fallen Angels in the war in heaven.

Notice the verse contrasts evil peace.

Allowing evil is not the same as empowering evil men.

God will not empower the AC, Satan and the false prophet in the tribulation. He will allow them to function without restraint.

I know that sounds like nonsense to many, but that's reality.
Not all of that is wrong, but it is not a good representation of the truth from God, and more the teachings of men.

"Free will" is not an ability given by God to do our own will, but rather His ability to manifest the very thing(s) that are already in a person.

But since you cannot imagine it, here is an example of both good and evil from the Lord:

"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him." I Samuel 16:14