Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

[marks]

I'm going to be the one hijacking if I continue . . .

 

[Jay Ross]

I hijack nothing. What I said is relevant.

I missed that question but the answer I gave to the other covers a lot of it:

First of all, here it is the better translation.

Matthew 24:51 New International Version (NIV) 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Remember, this was to Israel. The church did not yet exist.

Dismemberment was an ancient punishment for the worst of criminals.

Once dismembered, his spirit went to hell and his body may have been cremated.


It is relevant to all the time frames.

It seems to me that the OSAS argument does not hold up under this verse.

So the answer to the OP is that Yes, it is possible for the disciples to lose their salvation.

A disciple is one who sits at the feet of Christ and learns from Him, whether he is a gentile or Israelite or whether back when Christ was walking the earth of now as we walk the earth.

Yes there are many "disciples" even on this forum who beat their fellow servants who will be cut up and assigned a place with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Could this question apply to the very early disciples? Yes it could, however, the application, timewise, makes it highly unlikely in that the parable where this verse is found was for a time many years into the distant future from the time that Christ was sitting on the mount talking about the end times with His disciples.

Shalom

 

[Hidden In Him]

I missed that question but the answer I gave to the other covers a lot of it... "
Remember, this was to Israel. The church did not yet exist."

It is relevant to all the time frames.

Ok, but my specific question in Post #25 was, "why was the Lord teaching this to his disciples, and in the context of His second coming, if it was to Israel?

 

[Hidden In Him]

It seems to me that the OSAS argument does not hold up under this verse.

So the answer to the OP is that Yes, it is possible for the disciples to lose their salvation.

A disciple is one who sits at the feet of Christ and learns from Him, whether he is a gentile or Israelite or whether back when Christ was walking the earth of now as we walk the earth.

Yes there are many "disciples" even on this forum who beat their fellow servants who will be cut up and assigned a place with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Could this question apply to the very early disciples? Yes it could, however, the application, timewise, makes it highly unlikely in that the parable where this verse is found was for a time many years into the distant future from the time that Christ was sitting on the mount talking about the end times with His disciples.

Shalom

Excellent. Matthew 25 does indeed point to a time very close to Christ's actual return, and so I agree with you. Matthew 24-25 is one continuous answer given in response to the direct question from the disciples regarding what would be the signs of His coming, and of the end of the age. This would suggest that those who will need this warning about not giving themselves to "drinking" (sin) and "beating his servants" (spiritual abuse) will live during the last days.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm going to be the one hijacking if I continue . . .

LoL. There are several members here who do this, and maybe myself included. The good thing about this site is it is normally not policed very tightly, so there's a little more freedom. The other side of that coin is that threads nearly always take on a life of their own, and start traveling. The difference on this one is I'm keeping a short leash on it, because I want responses to the OP first and foremost.

I don't see you as much of a hijacker - more like the hijacked, LoL - so until further notice I don't have any problems with your posts. If I correct anyone, it will be those who have you chasing their rabbit trails of choice, LoL.

Don't feel bad. All part of getting to know the members of this community.
Blessings in Christ, brother. You're doing fine : )

 

[marks]

it is normally not policed very tightly, so there's a little more freedom.

I've sure noticed that!

Blessings in Christ, brother.

Blessing to you also!

And much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

Ok, but my specific question in Post #25 was, "why was the Lord teaching this to his disciples, and in the context of His second coming, if it was to Israel?

Here's a can of worms . . . dispensations.

Let me ask you . . .

Acts 3:19-21
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

What would have happened if the nation, from the leaders on down, have believed in Jesus at Peter's preaching?

Would Jesus have returned? I believe it says here that He would have.

And that would have made the generation Jesus taught the last generation, would it not?

And that would have meant that those Jesus addressed would have been those who would have been judged at Jesus' return.

Now. You may say, But God knew that they would not, so it was actually to the last generation, who would be the ones who would see Him return.

Just the same . . . was God's offer to send times of refreshing, and to send back Jesus, was that a real offer? Even though God knew they weren't going to believe, did He do anything that would have eliminated the possibility of their belief, such as declaring that it would not happen?

Or is the reason that this parable is vague in who it addresses because it can address either person, the Jew at the end of the age, in that day - if that had been the end of the age - or the person alive now, or in our future, when the current age actually does end?

Much love!
Mark

 

[brakelite]

This subject can indeed lead down many avenues of thought. Is OSAS a thing? If not, on what terms? What conditions or criteria is God so intolerant of as to bring about damnation to one previously justified? I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that being justified in a full biblical sense does mean " made right with God"... However, it does not mean "saved". Being justified is but the first step in the way to glory. Salvation does not begin and end at the cross. There's that simple but vital instruction from the Master that says, "abide". And from Paul "endure".
I believe it was possible for the apostles to have been lost, as it is for us, but extremely difficult. The only way anyone could be lost is for one to deliberately and with determination break off the relationship. Because such an act would pain the Father and Son immensely, they will do anything in their power to convince such a one to repent. God has torn down the wall of separation between Himself and man.. It is man who seeks to rebuild that wall through a purposeful and resolute step back into the world of sin. Not just one sin here and there, but a reverse in direction that results in a full lifestyle change. Total apostasy. This is the only ground for divorce. Complete determined unfaithfulness to the marriage vows.

 

[CoreIssue]

OK. Because that is what @ScottA is espousing.

Much love!

You mean you can interpret Scott speech?

 

[CoreIssue]

It seems to me that the OSAS argument does not hold up under this verse.

So the answer to the OP is that Yes, it is possible for the disciples to lose their salvation.

A disciple is one who sits at the feet of Christ and learns from Him, whether he is a gentile or Israelite or whether back when Christ was walking the earth of now as we walk the earth.

Yes there are many "disciples" even on this forum who beat their fellow servants who will be cut up and assigned a place with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Could this question apply to the very early disciples? Yes it could, however, the application, timewise, makes it highly unlikely in that the parable where this verse is found was for a time many years into the distant future from the time that Christ was sitting on the mount talking about the end times with His disciples.

Shalom

You can't lose what you don't have.

Until the resurrection no one was saved/born again.

The Holy Spirit did not come to indwell until Christ ascended.

Also, you can't have one first contradicting another, which is what you're doing.

 

[Helen]

.."...Lose of salvation.." ??

Short answer NO.
Long answer... nnnnn......ooooooooooo!!

 

[Jay Ross]

You can't lose what you don't have.

Until the resurrection no one was saved/born again.

The Holy Spirit did not come to indwell until Christ ascended.

Also, you can't have one first contradicting another, which is what you're doing.

Then perhaps your post should have stated where my error was concerning an unstated scriptural verse with the verses and their scriptural references you believe demonstrate the point you are attempting to make without actually saying anything worthwhile from which I can learn of my error and how I can correct it.

I await your full expansion on your claims.

Shalom

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What was the Lord referring to specifically? Or do you think I am too daft to comprehend your answer, LoL.

It never crossed my mind whether or not you are daft.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

My answer remains the same, biblical, and consistent: None who are truly saved will lose their eternal salvation.

 

[ScottA]

The world manifests it via freewill.

How backwards can you be...you have the tail wagging the dog (God).

No, the world can do nothing. That is the teachings of men. There is no such "freewill" in scripture. Freewill in the scriptures, is thanks to God, an offering of thanksgiving. Period.

 

[CoreIssue]

How backwards can you be...you have the tail wagging the dog (God).

No, the world can do nothing. That is the teachings of men. There is no such "freewill" in scripture. Freewill in the scriptures, is thanks to God, an offering of thanksgiving. Period.

So you are a Calvinists.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

How backwards can you be...you have the tail wagging the dog (God).

No, the world can do nothing. That is the teachings of men. There is no such "freewill" in scripture. Freewill in the scriptures, is thanks to God, an offering of thanksgiving. Period.

@CoreIssue's god (himself) is "freewill." He (freewill) is so powerful that even God cannot do a thing about it, yes God bows to his god of self. He can do whatever he wants and God stands in awe of him.

 

[CoreIssue]

@CoreIssue's god (himself) is "freewill." He (freewill) is so powerful that even God cannot do a thing about it, yes God bows to his god of self. He can do whatever he wants and God stands in awe of him.

Two Calvinists in agreement. Shocking!

 

[ScottA]

This is non-responsive. You don't have to respond. I'm not planning to try to force you. But if you believe what you are saying, why not answer plainly?

Your beef is apparently with God. I just quoted a very plain scripture which you have failed to explain or acknowledge.

What say ye?

I have been clear. Why do you continue to ask me to repeat? (Rhetorical) It is because you do not want to believe it from me or from God.

Not so.

A spirit sent by God distressed Saul. You can as easily say a wind sent by God blew down a tree. We'd find that distressing, but not sinful. Not wicked or evil, just calamitous. There was a spirit who was distressing, and was sent to Saul.

Saul was to be distressed, and God send a spirit to do that.

But does that teach us that God sent His Holy Spirit poured out on all people, both the just and the unjust, to cause them to, with your word, "flourish", in whatever they are? The good to do more and better good, the evil to do more and worse evil, by the power of the Holy Spirit?

It does not.

Personally, I find that idea completely repugnant.

Much love!
Mark

What you are saying here is not biblical. All power in heaven and earth belongs to God. But you act as if there is another.

On the contrary, I have explained that what people call "freewill" and a spiritual force other than God, is not that at all...but is the manifestation of both good and evil by God unto judgement. The manifestations of all of history simply show each person as they are, as it is written in the books. Just as God is "I am", so too is every person born. Then comes the end.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Nothing says that everyone.

Matthew was written for the Holy Spirit was given.

“Matthew was written for the Holy Spirit was given?” You mean before the Holy Spirit was given? So was ...

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51

Isaiah 10:15-20
[15] Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood. [16] Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire. [17] And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; [18] And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. [19] And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them. [20] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord , the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Luke 12:49
[49] I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

 

[ScottA]

In the context of the Chapter, Scott, the "evils" he creates are circumstances having to do with the rise and fall of nations. It is not saying He deliberately creates evil men. But we're far too afield of the OP at this point anyway, so let's leave it there.

You can say that there is another who has the power as God has power...but it is not biblical, not the truth from God.

But you are under the wrong impression. I am not saying that God has made men evil, I am saying that He has manifest evil men in the world...just as He has manifest good children of God. Just as He said, "I the Lord do all these things."