LUKE 3:16 BAPTISM OF FIRE

[Doug]

It's interesting that in Acts disciples of John had to be baptised as Christians, having already been baptised as disciples of John before the Holy Spirit came to indwell.

Hello
If you are referring to Acts 19 The Holy Ghost came on them not by being baptized but by Paul laying hands on them in verse 6.

 

[Doug]

Absolutely. Doug has John speaking to all of Israel - both saved and lost - in this passage, but the context suggests John was speaking directly to those receiving his baptism. This was not a meaningless event. It was receiving baptism from a voice crying in the wilderness to make way for the coming of the Lord; a precursor to receiving Christ's baptism, since John pointed to Jesus as the One who's sandals he wasn't even worthy to loosen.

I've heard arguments about Pentecost being or not being the start of the church before, but I've never related to them very well. I could give supports for how Jesus Himself referred to the church in terms that place its existence well before Pentecost, but I suppose I will wait until the discussion comes up again.

Hello
John was preaching to all of Israel (Acts 13:24 says all) but not all responded as can be seen in Luke 7:29-30

 

[Hidden In Him]

I heard pretty early in my walk that everything NT was just OT re-expressed or whatever, and me being me i set out to test it.

The principle seemed sound based upon, nothing new under the sun, ended up being a quite interesting study trying to find some of the twins. OT manna ends up being NT Christ, etc, you know the drill right. Only some of them are a little harder to match up? I mean "Church" is pretty easy...interesting to see whether ppl go with "Israel" or "synagogue" there though, to me. Had more than one pastor go "synagogue" thoug, pretty cringy imo.

I guess you'd go "living stones who were already known?" or something similar? For the bottom deal? Or what? Ty

Israel if church corporate, synagogue if church local.

But the expression "Living stones" was actually to distinguish; from a stationary building in Jerusalem being where God's Spirit resided to a group of people upon whom He resided.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello
John was preaching to all of Israel (Acts 13:24 says all) but not all responded as can be seen in Luke 7:29-30

Correct. The Pharisees and scribes were likewise among those he preached to, but unlike those he was speaking to in Luke 3:16-17, they refused to be baptized by John. They just came out to see what he was up to when it says "and they came to his baptism" in Matthew 3:7.

 

[Doug]

Correct. The Pharisees and scribes were likewise among those he preached to, but unlike those he was speaking to in Luke 3:16-17, they refused to be baptized by John. They just came out to see what he was up to when it says "and they came to his baptism" in Matthew 3:7.

Hello
In Luke 3:16-17 John was speaking also to exhortation; John was preaching a separation during the tribulation of fruitful and unfruitful Israel.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello
In Luke 3:16-17 John was speaking also to exhortation; John was preaching a separation during the tribulation of fruitful and unfruitful Israel.

Hmmm... interesting thought, but I think the prophecy here was pointing more towards the conquest of Jerusalem than the tribulation. It does, however, appear that the symbolism of the "threshing-floor" was in reference to Israel. But Gentile believers would have also had to have been included among the "wheat" here, since Paul stated that the true Jews were those who were Jews inwardly (Romans 2:25-29).

 

[Doug]

Hmmm... interesting thought, but I think the prophecy here was pointing more towards the conquest of Jerusalem than the tribulation. It does, however, appear that the symbolism of the "threshing-floor" was in reference to Israel. But Gentile believers would have also had to have been included among the "wheat" here, since Paul stated that the true Jews were those who were Jews inwardly (Romans 2:25-29).

Hello Bro
As far as the threshing floor Jesus spoke of separating the believing remnant from the unbelieving Jews:
Luke 12:51
John 7:43
Matthew 21:43
Luke 12:32

The believing Jews would enter the prophetic kingdom after the tribulation and reign with Christ as kings and priests, Israel would be a holy nation, a peculiar people, Israel would become one nation:
Revelation 5:10
Revelation 20:6
Exodus 19:6
Deuteronomy 14:2
1 Peter 2:9

Gentiles at that time had to go through Israel and would be part of the election of grace as can be seen in Romans 11 and would enter into the kingdom:
Romans 11:5
Romans 11:13 These are Gentiles that were in Christ before Paul was saved...they believed the gospel of the kingdom preached by Peter and the apostles and they are the wheat you spoke of.

 

[bbyrd009]

Israel if church corporate, synagogue if church local.

But the expression "Living stones" was actually to distinguish; from a stationary building in Jerusalem being where God's Spirit resided to a group of people upon whom He resided.

Not tripping on that Naive deal too much to guess huh HiH?
ok, ty

 

[bbyrd009]

HiH

 

[bbyrd009]

even the unaccountable, you think? Ha you did say all! :)

its along in here somewhere i generally get confused about who we're talkin about i guess. Who is this "us" here again sbg? ty. Not meaning any offense ok, but i'm readin many will be deceived, many will cry LordLord, see. Many will sing When We All Get To Heaven too i guess see
i tell ya man, when you get a revelation it's like lightning flashing, innit. I hope no one has ever gone up to heaven and the kingdom of heaven is within you are considered in that context. Find The Pearl and come on in!
"begins to appear?"
Matthew 21:31 Lexicon: "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
I guess it's maybe a little hard to perceive ourselves as the Pharisees in that scenario, huh? But the penitent thief is them i guess. Not a bad idea to wherever you Read "Pharisee" just insert "me" imo

Just imagine how someone who even went and got baptised and had words said over em is gonna sound when them words are played back at em, huh? And they have this look on their face like they don't understand? What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind (Luby's)?
The blind spot right in front of each eye too though, huh? Although i like the flip thing too, good analogy of how we need to change our minds to naive, imo. Guess the blind spot stays no matter what!

easy to find yourself justifying yourself with the Bible i guess, huh

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I had seen your reply but I didn't understand it Because in the end, everyone will be accountable.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hello
If you are referring to Acts 19 The Holy Ghost came on them not by being baptized but by Paul laying hands on them in verse 6.

Ah well you say "not by being baptized" Doug, but wouldn't a "baptism of fire" or "spirit" kind of necessarily preclude any water um ceremony thing anyway? Like what you are...imaging there that a witness might have actually seen, i mean? With their Two Eyes iow? "Baptism" has to go with "water?" Can't really, right?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Washed with the water of the word...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And also: "you are already clean."

Howso? By their water baptism by John?

No. Jesus said, you are already clean...because of the word I have spoken to you.

 

[bbyrd009]

I had seen your reply but I didn't understand it Because in the end, everyone will be accountable.

Well how about the special ppl? Tbh wouldn't surprise me too much if more like almost no one is considered accountable lol, but i dunno there, let's consider those who...even we--as in everyone--give a pass to for right now first maybe. Generally speaking even the "simple" get a pass, yes?

And I'm kinda just now realizing duh little children are not accountable too are they, for basically the same reason? But as an aside, this is where i'm going, not where we're at yet. Now where the line is up there i don't know...ok well i do, someone could be quite ignorant and yet still have eaten from the tree of knowledge huh, you can tell by how they talk, "this is that and that is this" stuff alla time, so maybe "simple" is not quite the best current idiom, but obviously somewhere on the scale of what we define as "intelligence" we generally agree that someone who cannot defend themselves say, in a court of law even...ha which opens up another can i guess, but you get me here right, we have a, maybe each have an individual IQ standard that we hold others to as a "pass-fail" for "accountability?"

And wow i was riffing on this "accountability" thing the other day, i mentioned like "bookkeepping" and i think "wages" and kinda got challenged there but not really so i just kinda let it go, even though it sounded like wages to me...but anyway we even like seek to be considered accountable and adult and mature and stuff, huh?

So fwiw i honestly don't know, at "everyone accountable" ok, i'd be asking where you got that idea first.

 

[bbyrd009]

Washed with the water of the word...

But what does that even mean though, iyo?

So, dunno if i could even demonstrate very easily, but there is a way that i could agree with you that would illustrate the baptisms of fire for sure, and maybe even Spirit, and i'd be using Scripture but you would not like the word prolly. I wonder if we could discuss this last concept?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well how about the special ppl? Tbh wouldn't surprise me too much if more like almost no one is considered accountable lol, but i dunno there, let's consider those who...even we--as in everyone--give a pass to for right now first maybe. Generally speaking even the "simple" get a pass, yes?

And I'm kinda just now realizing duh little children are not accountable too are they, for basically the same reason? But as an aside, this is where i'm going, not where we're at yet. Now where the line is up there i don't know...ok well i do, someone could be quite ignorant and yet still have eaten from the tree of knowledge huh, you can tell by how they talk, "this is that and that is this" stuff alla time, so maybe "simple" is not quite the best current idiom, but obviously somewhere on the scale of what we define as "intelligence" we generally agree that someone who cannot defend themselves say, in a court of law even...ha which opens up another can i guess, but you get me here right, we have a, maybe each have an individual IQ standard that we hold others to as a "pass-fail" for "accountability?"

And wow i was riffing on this "accountability" thing the other day, i mentioned like "bookkeepping" and i think "wages" and kinda got challenged there but not really so i just kinda let it go, even though it sounded like wages to me...but anyway we even like seek to be considered accountable and adult and mature and stuff, huh?

So fwiw i honestly don't know, at "everyone accountable" ok, i'd be asking where you got that idea first.

I first got the idea that all men will be held accountable, I guess...from a future time when a light so bright will hit every man that nothing will be hidden. Even unbelievers have a shared dream of being in a huge gathering of people, up on a stage in a spotlight, to find in the dream that they are completely naked, with everyone looking on their nakedness.

As for the rest of your post, I think no one will be be expected to make an account for what they don't have, but for whatever they do have and were given.

I don't have it all figured out, but I do know that the very ones who have been given more will have a greater accounting, not less as they seem to think.

 

[bbyrd009]

And also: "you are already clean."

Howso? By their water baptism by John?

No. Jesus said, you are already clean...because of the word I have spoken to you.

Ha well, that amounts to another riddle right, what "word" was Jesus referring too iyo?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But what does that even mean though, iyo?

So, dunno if i could even demonstrate very easily, but there is a way that i could agree with you that would illustrate the baptisms of fire for sure, and maybe even Spirit, and i'd be using Scripture but you would not like the word prolly. I wonder if we could discuss this last concept?

What makes you think I would not like the word from God. I love scripture...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ha well, that amounts to another riddle right, what "word" was Jesus referring too iyo?

He said: the word I have spoken to you.