Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Keraz]

Pre-tribe. Game. Set. Match.

Well, its obvious that there's nothing I can present that will change your belief in a pre-trib[e] rapture to heaven.

I know that many; most?, Christians just accept a rapture as given, set in concrete; so to speak.
Any teaching that it is false is an anathema to them. And for anyone to suddenly say they refute it: their friends and family would call the men in white coats to come with a straightjacket and put them in a mental asylum. At the very least they would be ostracized.

So; I understand why you must find every possible 'proof' that you can. Basically the only proof against a 'rapture' you will accept, is when the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath does come and no one is taken to heaven.

With all that said: we all just await the fulfilment of the end times events.
At least you have read what I have presented and now know there is a viable alternative to a rapture removal, the prophesies that tell how we Christians will gather in all of the holy Land, His righteous people into their heritage.

 

[Davy]

This is called speaking out of both sides of your mouth. See my post above and admit that you are totally mistaken.

God has obviously CLOSED your eyes. You cannot even read the Scriptures without some kind of foreign filter affecting your understanding.

1 Kings 11:4-11
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, Which had appeared unto him twice,

10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
KJV


Solomon TURNED TO PAGANISM against The LORD GOD, even after God had appeared to him twice!!

So go find someone else to mock you white-washed wall!

 

[Davy]

I guess Ezra was just got ahold of some dessert weed to call the group he brought back from Babylon Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. And Nehemiah got into the same stuff to call his group Jews 11 times and all Israel 22 times. Either that or they were lying.

No, they were level headed. They were the reporters on the scene. Their testimony on the matter would pass legal muster. It is primary source material and also is scripture canon. So they outweigh your thoughts on the matter,

And I guess Anna in the book of Luke was just a figment of someone's imagination. She was of Asher, one of the northern tribes. Imagine.... virtually 700 years after the Assyrian conquest and 500 years after Babylon and she still knew the tribe she was from. And was living in the levant and even serving in the temple! Unbelievable!

Paul called himself a Hebrew, a Jew, a Benjamite, and an Israelite. Poor confused Paul from Tarsus, Cilicia (Turkey).

Ezra outlined exactly who returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. ONLY the tribes of Judah, Levi, and Benjamin he mentioned.

Ezra 1:5
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
KJV

But in Ezra 2, he named foreigners who had sneaked into the priesthood, and the Nethinims and their children, which were the leftovers of the Canaanites that became Solomon's servants (Ezra 2:58-62; 1 Kings 9:20-23).


As I have already told you, after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in Rehoboam's day, a small remnant of the northern tribes refused Jeroboam's golden calf idols in the north. So that remnant left the northern kingdom of Israel and joined with the southern kingdom of Judah at Jerusalem (2 Chronicles 11:14-17). Thus a 'remnant' of the ten northern tribes became Jews along with those of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi of the southern kingdom of Judah. That... is how Anna of the northern tribe of Asher would be found among the Jews in the days of Christ's 1st coming.

So all you do in mocking that, you do to your own dishonor.

 

[Enoch111]

So go find someone else to mock you white-washed wall!

This is hilarious. Instead of honestly admitting that you were DEAD WRONG you had to go and find an excuse to attack the messenger.

 

[Davy]

Did you guys Actually Read Revelation, right? I need to talk to people that read Revelation. What about the 144,000 first sealed? OK first there's 7 Bowls and 7 Trumpets of judgment. Every bowl has a calamity, I believe. I Think that those living and Dead meeting Christ At That Time, well you skipped the Tribulation in that sense, if you're dead? There is a persecuted Church that faces a tribulation that is Then to Perservere and meet Christ. I do agree, the media is getting heavy and annoying about pre-trib, and then typically, not a sentence of scripture.

I don't see a problem understanding 'direct' Scripture by our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul that clearly reveals His coming and gathering of His Church is after the tribulation...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Those two examples BY JESUS HIMSELF aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's return and gathering of His Church. The Matt.24 example is the gathering of the 'asleep' saints from Heaven that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him. And the Mark 13 example is the gathering of those still alive that are "caught up" according to Paul.

I see Paul in perfect agreement with Jesus there, the only difference being Jesus gave the exact... time that will happen, i.e., "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...".


And then in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul was very specific that the coming false one MUST appear first sitting in a temple in Jerusalem PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather the Church. Paul even showed that Jesus will destroy that "Wicked" one by the brightness of His coming, revealing that only happens to end the reign of that Wicked one (the Antichrist).

So what's the problem??

I see no... problem with those Scriptures at all.

The only problem I see is with ignorant and rebellious men who are deceived, and those who deceive them.

 

[Davy]

This is hilarious. Instead of honestly admitting that you were DEAD WRONG you had to go and find an excuse to attack the messenger.

Your Biblical ignorance is what is hilarious. But that's natural for a Judaizer whom God has blinded because of following traditions of the Jews.

 

[Copperhead]

2 Chronicles 11:16-17 (NKJV) And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord God of their fathers. 17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong for three years, because they walked in the way of David and Solomon for three years.

2 Chronicles 15:9 (NKJV) Then he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and those who dwelt with them from Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon, for they came over to him in great numbers from Israel when they saw that the Lord his God was with him.

2 Chronicles 30:11-12 (NKJV) Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 30:18-20 (NKJV) For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet they ate the Passover contrary to what was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good Lord provide atonement for everyone 19 who prepares his heart to seek God, the Lord God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.” 20 And the Lord listened to Hezekiah and healed the people.

2 Chronicles 31:6 (NKJV) And the children of Israel and Judah, who dwelt in the cities of Judah, brought the tithe of oxen and sheep; also the tithe of holy things which were consecrated to the Lord their God they laid in heaps.

So while Ezra and Nehemiah did not mention each tribe by name, Ezra called his group Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah called his group Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. There were many from the northern tribes that migrated southward to the souther kingdom and joined with them. By the time of the return from the Exile, Jew and Israelite had become interchangeable terms.

Even Paul called himself a Hebrew, a Jew, a Benjamite, and an Israelite. He basically acknowledged that the distinction between northern and southern kingdoms had vanished and that they all were joined. And of course, Anna from the tribe of Asher was still distinct and living in Judah serving in the temple continuously.... 700 years after the Assyrian conquest and over 500 years after the Babylonian exile. Showing that tribal lineage was still alive and well in the land.

 

[Taken]

Well, its obvious that there's nothing I can present that will change your belief in a pre-trib[e] rapture to heaven.

What is this "RAPTURE TO HEAVEN",
You are claiming people believe??

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

LOL...I am very confident, thee Lord God is the Top Word in this matter!

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

1)
Thee Great Tribulation, is entirely Orchestrated BY Gods WILL and POWER.

2)
Thee Great Tribulation, IS with INTENT To SEPARATE those men DIVIDED, a FEW STANDING WITH God and MANY STANDING WITHOUT God.

3)
Thee Great Tribulation, IS a Time of Great Disasters, Havoc, Suffering, UPON People WHO HAVE Rejected God, AND Christ Jesus.

4)
Apparently YOU are UNAWARE;
A FEW people, have ALREADY; been;
FORGIVEN, WASHED, SANCTIFIED, SAVED, QUICKENED, RECORDED IN THE LAMB"S BOOK OF LIFE...
Prepared FOR Resurrection;
ON a DAY of the Lord's choosing;
"AND NOT SUBJECT TO The Great Tribulation WRATH" !!

5)
Apparently YOU are UNAWARE;
A man Converted "IN CHRIST", IS Forever IN standing WITH THEE Lord God.

6)
Apparently YOU are UNAWARE;
Gods WRATH Comes DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

7)
Apparently YOU are UNAWARE:
Thee Lord God, IS NOT ON EARTH, During the Great Tribulation!

8) Repeat for slow learners...
A converted man is FOREVER with Thee Lord God.

9) Repeat for slow learners...
Thee Lord God, IS NOT ON EARTH, During the Great Tribulation!

10)
God is IN HEAVEN, during the Great Tribulation.
Christ the Lord, is IN THE CLOUDS, during the Great Tribulation.
Christ's Church of Converted men "IN" Christ are Lift UP to thee Lord, IN THE CLOUDS, during the Great Tribulation.

Christ's Church IS LIFT UP, BECAUSE THEY HEAR HIS VOICE

You have me convinced; YOU WILL NOT HEAR HIS VOICE.

11) Repeat for slow learners...
Converted men ARE FOREVER WHERE the Lord IS.

And NO I will NOT repeat Giving you Scriptures that VERIFY my points.

IF you want to BE ON EARTH during the Great Tribulation and SUFFER Gods Contempt Against you .... YOUR CHOICE....

Because what that means IS:
YOU will be Among ALL THE OTHERS WHO have HEARD of Christ the Lord Jesus, AND REJECTED HIM! Jews and Gentiles alike!!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

What is this 'rapture to heaven'. that people believe?

Glory to God,
Taken

This is one of the main confusions about the 'rapture' issue. WHERE do people go to?
As there is no scripture that says anyone other than the 2 Witnesses, go to heaven and Jesus refutes it, so people that have been deceived into believing they will be taken to heaven, are very wrong and are in for a nasty shock.

Paul says there will be a transportation, when Jesus Returns; of those faithful people who remain, to where He is. 1 Thess 4:17
This conforms with Matthew 24:30-31 and many other scriptures saying how we Christians will be His priests and co-rulers on earth for the Millennium.
As for the totally unbelievable idea of returning with Jesus, as His army; that is so far out into the comic book realm, as to be a subject of ridicule.

 

[Taken]

I don't see a problem understanding 'direct' Scripture by our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul that clearly reveals His coming and
gathering of His Church is after the tribulation...

ERROR ALERT !!

No... the Scripture Does NOT SAY the Lord Jesus "gathers" "HIS CHURCH" after the Tribulation!

GOD gathers "the BODY'S of HIS ISRAEL, "HIS" People, (who have come into BELIEF "IN" the Lord Jesus, ISRAEL'S Christ Messiah during the Great Tribulation.....AND Become Physically KILLED, by the Anti-Christ) !!!

Rev 6
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You should TRY Reading the Scriptures...
Instead of Repeating False claims.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

What is this 'rapture to heaven'. that people believe?

[QUOTE\ This is one of the main confusions about the 'rapture' issue. WHERE do people go to?
As there is no scripture that says anyone other than the 2 Witnesses, go to heaven and Jesus refutes it, so people that have been deceived into believing they will be taken to heaven, are very wrong and are in for a nasty shock. [/QUOTE]

I BELIEVE IN THE Pre-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.

I have NOT ONCE made such a claim, That men GO TO HEAVEN, Nor have I heard ANYONE who claims to believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, MAKE THE CLAIM that men GO TO HEAVEN.

So WHERE DID YOU COME UP with that CLAIM? And then SAY, that is what Pre-Tribulation Rapture Believers, BELIEVE their BODY is Being risen UP TO HEAVEN ?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Copperhead]

Well, David seems to suggest that in the time of trouble, quite possibly referring to the same "time of Jacob's trouble" that Jeremiah mentions, that...

Psalms 27:5 (NKJV) For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

And I am pretty confident that when Yeshua said He will go and prepare a place for us, it wasn't on the 2nd moon of Mars or a remote Island in the Pacific since He seemed to be referring in the same sentence to His Father's house, not the neighbor's. And that He was going there to prepare a place for us and would receive us to where He is.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Now if it only means gathering us to be with Him here on the planet, then what would be the point of Him telling us that He was preparing a place for us that seems to have the same proximity as the Father's house? To show us an example of a wasteful government works project to keep Himself busy until the appointed time of His return? Maybe fake rooms in Heaven to compete with that fake propaganda town north of the DMZ in Korea.

And the passage from John seems to go along with what Isaiah was writing about.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

 

[Keraz]

[QUOTE\ This is one of the main confusions about the 'rapture' issue. WHERE do people go to?
As there is no scripture that says anyone other than the 2 Witnesses, go to heaven and Jesus refutes it, so people that have been deceived into believing they will be taken to heaven, are very wrong and are in for a nasty shock.

I BELIEVE IN THE Pre-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.

I have NOT ONCE made such a claim, That men GO TO HEAVEN, Nor have I heard ANYONE who claims to believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, MAKE THE CLAIM that men GO TO HEAVEN.

So WHERE DID YOU COME UP with that CLAIM? And then SAY, that is what Pre-Tribulation Rapture Believers, BELIEVE their BODY is Being risen UP TO HEAVEN ?

Glory to God,
Taken[/QUOTE]
A classic demonstration of the confusion and error of the 'rapture' believers.
Please tell us where do you expect to be 'raptured' to?

 

[Keraz]

And I am pretty confident that when Yeshua said He will go and prepare a place for us, it wasn't on the 2nd moon of Mars or a remote Island in the Pacific since He seemed to be referring in the same sentence to His Father's house, not the neighbor's. And that He was going there to prepare a place for us and would receive us to where He is.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Your confidence is misplaced.
It is plain that John 14:1-2 is a prophecy about the New Jerusalem. Which comes down to the earth after the Millennium.
THEN; those who have proved worthy, will live in it; always with the Lord. Revelation 21 - 22

 

[Taken]

I BELIEVE IN THE Pre-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.

I have NOT ONCE made such a claim, That men GO TO HEAVEN, Nor have I heard ANYONE who claims to believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, MAKE THE CLAIM that men GO TO HEAVEN.

So WHERE DID YOU COME UP with that CLAIM? And then SAY, that is what Pre-Tribulation Rapture Believers, BELIEVE their BODY is Being risen UP TO HEAVEN ?

Glory to God,
Taken

A classic demonstration of the confusion and error of the 'rapture' believers.

ANOTHER ERROR!

You are the one TRYING to erronusly DEFINE what RAPTURE BELIEVERS BELIEVE.

Please tell us where do you expect to be 'raptured' to?

CAUGHT UP ..(raptured)..EXACTLY where Scripture Says;

ABOVE the face of the Earth;

SHALL BE / UP / TO / IN the CLOUDS

1 Thes 4:
[17] ... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ...

Is that NEWS to you?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

1 Thes 4:
[17] ... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ...

Is that NEWS to you?

No. I can read the Bible too.
But to call that gathering by the angels; a 'rapture' is not correct. It will happen when Jesus Returns and those faithful Christians who do remain alive at that time, will be gathered to Him. Matthew 24:30-31
Heaven is not the destination, initially - in the clouds, then to Jerusalem, where Jesus will reign from for the next 1000 years.

ANOTHER ERROR!

You are the one TRYING to erronusly DEFINE what RAPTURE BELIEVERS BELIEVE.

As I said; 'rapture' believers are so confused about where, when and why about that fable, how can anyone rationally discuss the idea?
Your accusations just show how frustrated those who want God to take them outta here, are; because their 'proofs' are so flimsy.

 

[Taken]

No. I can read the Bible too.

So can Satan!

But to call that gathering by the angels; a 'rapture' is not correct.

Who said the Rapture is a gathering by the angels?
Oh right, that was you AGAIN trying to SET A FALSE CLAIM, for what Rapture Believers Believe.

Jesus was QUITE CLEAR, about people HEARING, and NOT UNDERSTANDING.

You do the SAME THING. Rapture Believers have EXPLICITEDLY made their CLAIMS...

Yet you do not LISTEN.
You make up CLAIMS and PRETEND those are Claims of Rapture Believers...WHEN IT ISN'T.

It will happen when Jesus Returns and those faithful Christians who do remain alive at that time, will be gathered to Him. Matthew 24:30-31

Apparently you are the one Confused;

1)Jesus came forth OUT FROM GOD IN Heaven.

2) Jesus came TO EARTH, WIthOUT His POWER, & Entered Mary's Womb.

3) Jesus was REVEALED ON EARTH, coming forth from Mary's Womb.

4) Jesus was REVERED AS A king, A man, from Faithful Servant Abraham's Genealoglical Line, A Son of God.

5) Jesus selected His Disciples.

6) Jesus Began His Ministry, Revealing Secrets not before Known of mankind.

7) Christ the POWER of God, Began being Revealed Bit by Bit.

8) Christ the Lord Jesus WAS Bodily Crucified.

9) Christ the Lord Jesus came EXPRESSLY TO OFFER His BODY (prepared of God), For the Forgiveness and Salvation (right then) of ANY MAN who trusted TO BELIEVE Jesus IS the Christ Messiah of God.

10) Jesus' Body Rose UP from the Grave/Cave/Tomb, where His Dead body was Laid.

11) Jesus continued to Minister ON EARTH.

12) WITH Witnesses Observing A human man LAST "SAW" Jesus as He Disappeared INTO the CLOUDS.

13) WHEN Jesus RETURNS TO EARTH
He shall be SEEN Descending FROM the CLOUDS

Heaven is not the destination,

No one said it was a Destination. So why YET AGAIN make irrelevant comments?

initially - in the clouds,

Initially in the clouds? WHO SPECIFICIALLY are you taking about IS "initially in the clouds" ? AND WHEN SPECIFICALLY ?

As I said; 'rapture' believers are so confused about where, when and why about that fable, how can anyone rationally discuss the idea?

LOL - You MAKE UP THINGS that we DO NOT Believe, and then say it is irrational...

Ding, ding, ding....Get a clue, the irrational voice speaking is your own made up nonsense!

Your accusations just show how frustrated those who want God to take them outta here, are; because their 'proofs' are so flimsy.

LOL ~ No, my accusations are FACT...
You make up FALSE CLAIMS and despertately ATTEMPT to VOMIT your False Claims on others, saying it is what "THEY BELIEVE"...

That's dandy you can READ...but Jesus said it BEST...

Matt 15
[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?


Of course you CAN NOT UNDERSTAND, what a Rapture Believers Believes....because you are TOO BUSY TRYING TO FALSELY TELL THEM WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

Two ears One mouth for a purpose.
You are not qualified to dictate what I Believe.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Copperhead]

Your confidence is misplaced.
It is plain that John 14:1-2 is a prophecy about the New Jerusalem. Which comes down to the earth after the Millennium.
THEN; those who have proved worthy, will live in it; always with the Lord. Revelation 21 - 22

That is taking the passage in John allegorically. Not adhering to the hermeneutic principle of "when the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense". There is nothing in the passage of John to show an equivalence to the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21. But there is an equivalence to Isaiah 26:20 though. The passage in Revelation 21 is a overall general description of the city that has no grammatical equivalence to either John or Isaiah. It makes no mention of individual rooms like the John and Isaiah do.

 

[Keraz]

That is taking the passage in John allegorically. Not adhering to the hermeneutic principle of "when the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense". There is nothing in the passage of John to show an equivalence to the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21. But there is an equivalence to Isaiah 26:20 though. The passage in Revelation 21 is a overall general description of the city that has no grammatical equivalence to either John or Isaiah. It makes no mention of individual rooms like the John and Isaiah do.

Believe that if it fits your dream.
Isaiah 26:20-21 plainly refers to taking shelter here on earth. During the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, as Isaiah 27:1 goes on to state. Zephaniah 2:3