Please explain this.

[H. Richard]

All scripture is profitable for doctrine, 2 Timothy 3:16.

What scriptures is he saying that about? Seems to me he only had the OT and the book of James was not in it.

 

[H. Richard]

Justified and doing something righteous are two different things.

If there was no need for him to prove himself by works why have him think he had to sacrifice his son? Just for a game? God was bored in Heaven and said "Abraham is already justified by his faith, but I have nothing better to do, so I will ask him to prove himself again by killing his son just to see if he would do it because it would be funny"....

The sad fact is Christians are scared that Heaven is not a free pass and they might not go there, so they make up false doctrine and use God's Word to call other parts of God's Word a liar. Is James a liar, because he said faith without works is dead? Is the Heavenly Father a hypocrite and a liar, because he commanded Abraham to prove himself with Isaac after he was supposed already proven by his faith?

You call God's prophets and chosen liars, call God himself a liar, then mock his Holy Word. Then you think "it is fine I trash talk God, because I believe in him so I am going to Heaven and there is nothing he can do about it...sucks to be God".

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The scripture says that Abraham believed God and his believing God was accounted as righteousness. I will take it as the truth. Today under grace a person is righteous because God has cloaked him/her in His righteousness simple because of faith in His work on the cross.

 

[Episkopos]

The scripture says that Abraham believed God and his believing God was accounted as righteousness.

HIS believing God was because God said so. God also foresaw that he would indeed obey the Lord in the sacrificing of his only son. God can do that...foresee things.

But the angels could not foresee what Abraham would do for they declared...

Gen. 22:12 And He (the angel) said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

NOW I know...and this means that the angels needed to see the works that accompanied faith to know the person really feared the Lord.

I will take it as the truth.

As we all do. Your error is that you, unlike Abraham, justify yourself.

Today under grace a person is righteous because God has cloaked him/her in His righteousness.

Yes...but only they who have entered into Christ to abide in Him.

People tend to exaggerate their own status...for a status sake. But there is no truth in the pretensions of men. A person who walks in the righteousness of God does miraculous things like we read about in Acts. Since these are God Himself doing the works.

That is what grace means...

 

[Episkopos]

I have never said the book of James should be tossed out. It was written to the Jews. But it should not be used for doctrine in the grace gospel.

There is no grace gospel. That is an invented gospel that Paul condemns as "another gospel." It is the gospel of the kingdom ACCORDING to the power of God (grace) that is the true gospel.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Under the Old Covenant, God never specifically offered "salvation by grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8-9) But, salvation was a given for those under the Old Covenant, who repented of any wickedness that they had committed. Blessings however, were conditional on righteousness (obedience). They could choose to have blessings or curses. There is little difference today--some pastors say, "If you choose to sin, you are choosing to suffer." We might, like the Psalmist in Psalm 73, or the prophet Jeremiah, begin to lose faith when we survey the untroubled existence of the wicked, but the Psalmist seeks God's counsel and afterward, he assures us that God is just and, in faith, he believes that God will see to the punishment of the wicked.

One thing we may be missing here is: "Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. (Hebrews 11:1) Abraham didn't need faith to know that God existed---he saw Him (and/or heard Him). Abraham needed faith to believe God and to obey Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

No...I was just being kind to include myself. Your theology is greatly off--far from "perfect", and your communication skills are terrible.

What do you mean "So you mean you only do what YOU want to do?" (Rhetorical) People who have Jesus in them don't need to be commanded or required to do anything--they do what Jesus would, because they are One with Jesus. So call it all the 'ism names you want, but that is the gospel, and apparently you have another gospel and don't know the truth.

There is nothing "watered down" about being "in Christ" and "Christ in you." But saying such a thing...is anti-Christ.

Jesus gave the great commission in such a way as to insure the accuracy of His gospel...not what you are pushing, but His gospel.

As for word games...you have need to take your own advice: When the Commandments of God changed to being the law written on the hearts of those who are His, you missed the turnoff. But more importantly, you should stop preaching the words of God and Christ by the letter. Return to your studies and prayers until He sends you out with the truth in spirit. Meanwhile, the commandment from God, is to be "silent."

Have YOU taught any new Christians lately?
I'll skip all your advice.

Also, please keep your posts focused on scripture and not on ME.
You may not like what I speak...
but it's the truth..
it's the gospel Jesus left us with...
and it's what I'll keep repeating for as long as necessary.

You said the law is written on our hearts.
Good.
Now keep it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Justified and doing something righteous are two different things.

If there was no need for him to prove himself by works why have him think he had to sacrifice his son? Just for a game? God was bored in Heaven and said "Abraham is already justified by his faith, but I have nothing better to do, so I will ask him to prove himself again by killing his son just to see if he would do it because it would be funny"....

The sad fact is Christians are scared that Heaven is not a free pass and they might not go there, so they make up false doctrine and use God's Word to call other parts of God's Word a liar. Is James a liar, because he said faith without works is dead? Is the Heavenly Father a hypocrite and a liar, because he commanded Abraham to prove himself with Isaac after he was supposed already proven by his faith?

You call God's prophets and chosen liars, call God himself a liar, then mock his Holy Word. Then you think "it is fine I trash talk God, because I believe in him so I am going to Heaven and there is nothing he can do about it...sucks to be God".

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Well said!

 

[GodsGrace]

So, if I am saved by grace through faith, the very next moment I must earn my salvation (through sanctification by my flesh) from that time forward...by doing good works.

Sorry, this is salvation by works, refuted by Ephesians 2:9 and context.


Dead works...are works that we do in the power of the flesh....apart from faith and the Holy Spirit...in an attempt to earn continued salvation before God.


You do...

clarification, you believe that our salvation is maintained by works...which amounts to salvation by works the moment after you are "saved".

Question: Can you lose your salvation by failing to do good works after you are saved?

I believe that your answer is "yes". Therefore, your doctrine of no works, no salvation = salvation by works.


We are made righteous through Christ's one obedient act, Romans 5:19.


You are not forgiven then if you disobey. Because you are required to obey. Therefore, what is the consequence if you disobey? Have you thought this far into what you believe? If you disobey, do you go to hell? Disobedience to what extent?


Salvation by works...refuted by Ephesians 2:9 and context...also Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6.


Indeed it does (you didn't read the passage that I referenced, so now I will quote it):

Mat 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So, according to Jesus' law in the Sermon on the Mount, the law of Moses is still valid.


See Matthew 7:3-5.


Then you must obey Him perfectly from the beginning of your life into eternity.

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Yep.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.



1Co 1:18, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.



Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Can I quote you as saying that we maintain our salvation by works? Is it not what you believe?

This, to me, is salvation by works, from the first moment after a person gets saved.


You didn't answer his question.


No, you didn't. And you still haven't.


You cannot be a disciple of Jesus until you have sold your computer; and go and become homeless.

Again,

Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Now here's the thing; if you are not saved entirely by grace, but are relying on your works to save you (continued or otherwise), then you do indeed lose your salvation the first time you don't do the work that is REQUIRED of you by God.


Among them is most certainly the following:

Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

One day you'll see the light.
Read Mathew 5:13-16 since you're in that area of the bible.

As for now....our discussion is ended UNLESS you have something NEW to provide.

For now it's like this and I have some of God's work that needs to be done:

 

[GodsGrace]

Depends on what you mean by "works". What about the quadriplegic Christian who has no ability to paint the house of some poor old lady? What about that old Christian lady whose weakness, heart trouble and arthritis keeps her from working in the nursery at church? But she's constantly in prayer for everyone who crosses her path. The proper work of the church is loving, praying and glorifying Christ--all "works" are secondary to that.

Yes, I agree with this statement.



Yes--1 John gives the criteria for knowing that we have passed from death to life. He even says at the end of the letter that it was written so that WE CAN KNOW that we have eternal life.

Are YOU a quadraplegic?
Why worry about someone else and not about yourself?
How CAN you know you are saved if you don't even think it's important to obey GOD.

Jesus wants us to join His Kingdom right here on earth...which is all He spoke of.
IF we want to enter the Kingdom, we must do so with HIS admission and if we want to STAY in His Kingdom,,,we must follow the Kingdom rules.

Just like any other Kingdom...
There's a ruler
Rules
A population

 

[GodsGrace]

There are slight differences between the two but yes, they are roughly equivalent.

You say there are only slight differences between Messianic Jews and Jewish Christians from the time of Jesus?
A Messsianic Jew is of today and is a person that wants to maintain their Jewish rituals but believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

The Jewish Christians of Jesus' time were EXPELLED from the Synagogue before the end of the first century. They lived and died with the new Christian sect and let go of the old rituals,,,incl sacrifices.

Simple history.
The differences are great.

Where is there any other account of the Rich Man and Lazarus? I am in the habit of citing the Book and chapter-only because it is important to read contextually.

It would be considerate of you to post the book, chapter and verse. Like everyone else does. It's not necessary that YOU teach us about context.

The Rich Man's problem was that his heart was hard. Yes, he SHOULD have listened to Moses and the Prophets (we don't know that he didn't, by the way) but it apparently was of no effect in his life. Or, perhaps it confirmed the Rich Man in the hardness of his heart. When I read the account, I always get the idea that the Rich Man still didn't understand why he was there suffering, in the place of torment.

The point of the story of Lazarus and the rich man is that the rich man gathered his treasure on earth and his treasure was only material things.
Jesus taught that we must gather the treasure that lasts forever, as Lazarus did.
Matthew 6:19-20

It also teaches that once we're dead, it is TOO LATE.
Luke 16:26

It also teaches that even though Jesus died and resurrected....some will still not believe in Him.
Luke 16:31

I agree that the rich man did not really understand why he was there.

Paul was speaking to unbelievers. The Law of God will be used as the basis for the condemnation of those without the cleansing Blood of Christ. They will be told that they should have, at least tried to live a just life, even if they were not of the faith.

Paul was NOT speaking to unbelievers in the letter to the Romans.
Paul was writing to the believers in Rome before he went to visit them there.
Romans teaches Christian theory more than any other letter and Paul believed the Roman believers needed to hear these truths.
See Romans 1:5-8

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn't say we would find it in Genesis.
KJV Romans 4
Abraham is Justified By Faith
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

OK,,,so when do YOU believe Abraham was declared righteous by God?
When he left his home and obeyed God...
or in Genesis 15:6?
(we were discussing Genesis BTW).

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Are YOU a quadraplegic?
Why worry about someone else and not about yourself?
How CAN you know you are saved if you don't even think it's important to obey GOD.

Jesus wants us to join His Kingdom right here on earth...which is all He spoke of.
IF we want to enter the Kingdom, we must do so with HIS admission and if we want to STAY in His Kingdom,,,we must follow the Kingdom rules.

Just like any other Kingdom...
There's a ruler
Rules
A population

Just so you know...I don't respond to rude posts.

 

[ScottA]

Have YOU taught any new Christians lately?
I'll skip all your advice.

Also, please keep your posts focused on scripture and not on ME.
You may not like what I speak...
but it's the truth..
it's the gospel Jesus left us with...
and it's what I'll keep repeating for as long as necessary.

You said the law is written on our hearts.
Good.
Now keep it.

Quite apropos that you would finish with a misquote of both me and God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just so you know...I don't respond to rude posts.

What was rude about it?

You're too sensitive to be on a forum.

 

[GodsGrace]

Quite apropos that you would finish with a misquote of both me and God.

I never misquote God.

Keeping His commandments DOES scare you.

 

[Mal'ak]

We are saved by faith alone; but saving faith is never alone.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

You have it a little backwards, no one can do works for God or know God or know Jesus until they have faith. The Father "delivered" us to Jesus' by opening our eyes and giving us the gift of faith, of course faith is the first step and then after you have faith you have the choice to follow his commandments along with do works.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Ezekiel 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

We have two examples here of a "righteous man" and Jesus' "servant", both of these people are chosen of God with the gift of faith. The righteous man in Ezekiel turned to sin and "shall die", and "his righteousness Which he hath done shall not be remembered". Even if you were a faithful Christian of the Father for 40 years then you turned against him, all the righteousness you did in your life will not be remembered and you will go to Hell.

In Matthew we are told by Jesus of how when he went to Heaven he left all his servants spiritual gifts or "talents" to do works, so "at [his] coming [he] should have received [his] with usury". Meaning if you are given faith and spiritual gifts but do not use them, Jesus will take "away even that which he hath", which is your crown of life which will be taken away from you when Jesus returns and Jesus will command "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness". If you did not prove yourself by works Jesus declares you "unprofitable", and you will be put with the non-believers an wicked during his 1,000 year reign.

Bible is very clear faith alone is not enough, as this life is a test, we need to prove our faith as Abraham did to show God we are worthy of Heaven. That is the only reason there is the flesh and this life, to test us. Faith is not a test, as it is given freely by the Father to us and us having faith does not show we are good people...as James said "James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Having faith puts you equal with satan and the devils, that is it.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You say there are only slight differences between Messianic Jews and Jewish Christians from the time of Jesus?
A Messsianic Jew is of today and is a person that wants to maintain their Jewish rituals but believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

I think you don't know any--I do. Contrary to what you have said, Messianic Jews have a variety of expressions of faith. Some (just as in the days after the Resurrection) believe that Jews must follow all of the Jewish festivals and rituals--others do not. Many do not choose to call themselves "Christians" because of the negative connotations that provokes among their brethren which they fervently hope to reach with the gospel.

The Jewish Christians of Jesus' time were EXPELLED from the Synagogue before the end of the first century. They lived and died with the new Christian sect and let go of the old rituals,,,incl sacrifices.

Contrary to what you have so confidently stated, there have always been Jewish believers in Messiah Yeshua. They were FORCED to let go of the old sacrificial system when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

Simple history. The differences are great.

It seems that you often don't know what you think you do.

It would be considerate of you to post the book, chapter and verse. Like everyone else does. It's not necessary that YOU teach us about context.

Not "everyone else does". Amadeus often posts many well-known passages without any of those things. Is it necessary for YOU to be so rude? I think it IS necessary to ask other Christians to read passages in context because it will often point out error.

The point of the story of Lazarus and the rich man is that the rich man gathered his treasure on earth and his treasure was only material things. Jesus taught that we must gather the treasure that lasts forever, as Lazarus did. Matthew 6:19-20

That is your interpretation--I drew another. Abraham was a very wealthy man--having wealth is not a sin. Every day, the Rich Man ignored the plight of Lazarus at the Rich Man's gate. The Rich Man's heart was hard. You said, "Jesus taught that we must gather the treasure that lasts forever, as Lazarus did." You are apparently reading that into the text--we know nothing about Lazarus' spirituality.

Paul was NOT speaking to unbelievers in the letter to the Romans.
Paul was writing to the believers in Rome before he went to visit them there.
Romans teaches Christian theory more than any other letter and Paul believed the Roman believers needed to hear these truths.
See Romans 1:5-8

In the cited passage on which I commented, he was speaking about unbelievers.

What was rude about it?

If I have to tell you, you would probably deny that it was rude anyway, and I choose not to spend any more of my time on that point.

You're too sensitive to be on a forum.

Well, thank you for your pronouncement but perhaps it is you who needs to examine her heart, if you expect to gain anything from this forum.

 

[ScottA]

I never misquote God.

Keeping His commandments DOES scare you.

Here is your misquote of God and me:

the law is written on our hearts

Keeping His commandments "is finished."

What is scary, is you think you are serving God while misquoting Him.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

For goodness sake.
It's speaking about OUR WORKS.
It's speaking about the foundation that Paul and Apollos laid..
and the workers that will come after them.
Read it again please from verse 1.

Of course it is discussing "works" BUT the believer's SALVATION is NOT dependent on them. (verse 15)

 

[Episkopos]

Of course it is discussing "works" BUT the believer's SALVATION is NOT dependent on them. (verse 15)

What are you talking about. What you say isn't biblical.

All people will be judged by their works. THAT is the only biblical judgment. All others are inventions of people looking to save themselves for NOT doing the will of God.