Please explain this.

[justbyfaith]

I have said that the law governs us from the inside as Christians; but it no longer condemns us from the outside.

Huh?

We are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s)!

So our relationship to the law is that it no longer condemns us.

This does not mean that we are disobedient. On the contrary, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:19, Luke 7:36-50); and this love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

It is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

In other words, it is practical, not esoteric.

We obey the law because we love the Lord with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength; and our neighbor as ourselves. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We receive this practical love through faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of the Lord: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is the gift of righteousness that we receive by faith (Romans 5:17), even the love of God shed abroad in our heart.

It is a free gift given to us by God (Romans 5:15-19).

Now if I am given a free gift, it would be an insult to the giver if I offer to pay for it.

But this is exactly what you do when you preach, teach, and believe that you maintain your salvation by works.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I am going to try to do this by item.
The Jews do not have a devil...and if I say period that is pretty close. Satan appears in the OT...mostly and nearly only in Job. The Jews see that as a senior angel entering the Holy Court of God and together they decide to test Job.

Didn't I tell you that some Jews have formulated lies to "lead the goyim astray"? Whether THEY believe in the devil or not is not relevant. They are antichrist.

As far as I can tell, the persons in the O.T. attributed everything to God...even evil....
Well the Jews did not believe that Satan tempted anybody in the OT. The Jews believe that tempting and testing is from God.
Evil comes from People...Mostly in the OT evil was breaking one of the 613 Mosaic Laws. God cannot do evil because He defines good.

Why are you preaching Judaism 101? They are antichrist and soon they will have you reading the Talmud, and even the Zohar. Satan can appear as an angel of light.

Hades, agree with the parable...but still Hades and its concept and visualization comes from Greek Mythology.

So? They were Hellenized Jews. Greek was the lingua franca of the entire Mediterranean basin in that day--it was natural that some words and concepts would spill into Judaism--but not in any substantial way.

In the earliest texts, Hades does not appear at all. Later on, like much later, they change the word from Sheol to Hades.

So what? It is still the "place of the dead" in both languages and the concept of sheol goes back til at least the time of David because he mentions it in Psalm 139 (vs. 8). The bottom line is that you either trust that God was able to protect His word or you don't. I do trust that God knows who will listen to Him and who will not. Those who will not listen will run to and fro seeking the lies of men instead. Satan can do his clever worst to try to get God's children to doubt what God has said but it will not work against those God has chosen before the foundation of the world. Has Satan ever not had that as a tactic?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I don't mind if you want to discuss this...or not. But blowing your top and making accusations.....well it does not work well....does not prove anything....One item at a time and we talk it out or not. No matter how rude you get....not matter how much you blow your top...no matter the accusation I will not return the same to you. Try me!

It is not rude--it is emphatic. I fear for your soul and for those who would listen to the lies. And I did NOT "blow my top" nor did I make an accusation that was not founded in my concern. I was never angry at all.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Lady Crosstalk,

edited #981 (Please explain this.).

 

[Grailhunter]

Hint hint...From this side....you come a crossed angry and hysterical. I do not want to upset you. Do you want to talk about this or not?
If so....one item at a time. I am not going to get pulled in the chaos that goes on at this site.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The Early Fathers are not infallible?
That's very interesting because they're the ones that put the bible together and decided which books were canonical.

No--they are not. They include long passages of the Bible in their work but they are not responsible for putting it together. From the earliest days of the Church, the gospels and the epistles were copied and circulated through the fledgling network of churches throughout the Mediterranean basin. The New Testament as we know it, has been preserved, dating from the late 200s to the early 300s in the form of the Codex Sinaiticus. It was discovered in the 1800s in a Greek monastery in Egypt.

So do you think your pastor knows more than the early fathers?

That question is irrelevant.

Of course the protestants would be upset over what Irenaeus said.
Of course, I'd take HIM over them any day. They didn't know John's pupil.

Even Peter was seriously wrong before the Resurrection and even after when Paul had to take him to task for hypocrisy. You should really look into why the Huguenots were upset with Irenaeus--it has to do with Mary worship. But then, as a Catholic, maybe you don't see that as evil?

You let YOUR PASTOR determine what good works are for you?

No. Do you?

Do you know anyone that does?

Yes.

You think the Early Fathers are EXTRA BIBLICAL works?

Are their writings in the Bible?

 

[Nancy]

No--they are not. They include long passages of the Bible in their work but they are not responsible for putting it together. From the earliest days of the Church, the gospels and the epistles were copied and circulated through the fledgling network of churches throughout the Mediterranean basin. The New Testament as we know it, has been preserved, dating from the late 200s to the early 300s in the form of the Codex Sinaiticus. It was discovered in the 1800s in a Greek monastery in Egypt.

That question is irrelevant.

Even Peter was seriously wrong before the Resurrection and even after when Paul had to take him to task for hypocrisy. You should really look into why the Huguenots were upset with Irenaeus--it has to do with Mary worship. But then, as a Catholic, maybe you don't see that as evil?

No. Do you?
Yes.

Are their writings in the Bible?

Good points made,
To me, anything extra-biblical is not Holy Scripture-God breathed Word...at the most I would see it as Historical. Which is always helpful in other ways Filtering -IMHO, should always be done through scripture, concerning spiritual things/Truth. I'd go coo-coo if I thought I had to add to what I still only understand marginally, lol! Too much confusion thrown into the mix spoils the soup!

 

[quietthinker]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

It's no debate. A man who reasons that faith is solely a cerebral exercise is on the back foot from the outset and does not understand its nature.
The 'faith' of the man who argues that it is independent of the rest of a person's reality is a man who does not understand the value of righteousness neither has he any real interest in it and so qualifies himself as foolish.

Beware of the net Lucifer casts.....yes, he has lost his holiness but he has not lost his power.

 

[bbyrd009]

THAT IS A LIE. Please don't continue in this vein. To show you what a lie it is and this is just off the top of my head: Even a man ("the rich young ruler") outside the religious hierarchy says to Jesus, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Matthew 19:16).

no heaven mentioned there at all, see? The kingdom of heaven is within you, and the only way you will ever get where you seek to go is by adding to or subtracting from Scripture, like every good Mithraist does i guess. Best of luck in your quest for immortality tho k, nothing personal.

 

[bbyrd009]

Good points made,
To me, anything extra-biblical is not Holy Scripture-God breathed Word...at the most I would see it as Historical. Which is always helpful in other ways Filtering -IMHO, should always be done through scripture, concerning spiritual things/Truth. I'd go coo-coo if I thought I had to add to what I still only understand marginally, lol! Too much confusion thrown into the mix spoils the soup!

then you might at least contemplate that you added Holy and Word to Scripture all by yourself, wadr. You cannot Quote it, and no one who taught you that ever quoted it to you. Not ever. Now, is anything extra-Biblical not Holy Scripture-God breathed Word now, or no? And wadr Paul even disagrees with that ok? And you cant Quote that anywhere either. Not saying that you cannot define Writings as Bible, to your heart's content ok, no problem, but you might see that that is only bc you do not want to understand, and are--sorry but there just isnt a much better way to say this--content with spreading untruth and misinformation, wadr. The best cure for Christianity is to read the Bible i guess; do you want to be cured or not? Of course not, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

We are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s)!

So our relationship to the law is that it no longer condemns us.

This does not mean that we are disobedient. On the contrary, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:19, Luke 7:36-50); and this love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

It is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

In other words, it is practical, not esoteric.

We obey the law because we love the Lord with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength; and our neighbor as ourselves. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We receive this practical love through faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of the Lord: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is the gift of righteousness that we receive by faith (Romans 5:17), even the love of God shed abroad in our heart.

It is a free gift given to us by God (Romans 5:15-19).

Now if I am given a free gift, it would be an insult to the giver if I offer to pay for it.

But this is exactly what you do when you preach, teach, and believe that you maintain your salvation by works.

count the cost of that supposedly free gift that you dont know what youre talking about though, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

man, i dont mean to be constantly coming here and offending ppl, but jesus why dont y'all just read the Bible already? Instead of them 20 vv that got read to you by some idiot wolf looking for money? And you gave it to him? I mean ignorance is one thing, i'm obv ignorant in any social graces, ok, but there is a diff in ignorant and idiot, yeh? Do you just like being perceived as an idiot? I came back to erase all those but i cant, sorry yall. Guess i need to stop coming here any more prolly

 

[GodsGrace]

These are topics that are good discussions and there are answers. But we are probably going to take them one at a time.
The topics I brought up today are not


For sure...you know that at the time of Christ, some of the Jews understood this and some of them did not. Some believed in angels and the resurrections and some did not. And this is why I brought all this up. Knowing the facts about the Jews and the OT answers a lot of the Questions in the NT.

Right. I think I posted that the Pharisees believed in the afterlife and the Sadducees did not. Don't know why. I know the Pharisees were more legalistic and kept the law to the "T" and the sadducees were more "high class" priests.

The N.T. has more revelation than the O.T.
I do keep repeating that the persons in the O.T. attributed everything to God only (not to the enemy) even what God did not do....many don't accept this but it become much easier to understand the O.T. if this is understood.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are regenerated and renewed by faith, Titus 3:4-7.

A regenerated and renewed soul will always do good works when given the opportunity; while he or she is saved apart from works: and therefore if someone is regenerated and renewed and dies the next moment, or the rapture hits, they will immediately be in the presence of the Lord.

@GodsGrace, you misunderstand me.

I am not saying that you should stop doing good works. Whatever you are doing, keep it up (except for teaching that we maintain our salvation by works; since that it is false doctrine, it will do more harm than good and therefore it is better if you cease and desist)!

Just realize that you are not maintaining your salvation because you are doing them.

I have given enough scripture to show that the righteousness of the Lord is by faith from beginning to end and all the way through (Romans 1:17, Romans 5:2 w/ Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3).

This means that you do not maintain your salvation by what you do, but by the attitude of faith.

Faith means that you are submitted and surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, so living works won't be absent if you have the faith that I am talking about.

However, works without faith is dead, Hebrews 6:1.

So if you have works but do not have faith, your works will avail you nothing to bring you salvation.

If you start out being saved by grace through faith and then switch over to being saved by your works, just know that your works aren't going to save you; Ephesians 2:9.

Being saved by grace through faith, and being saved by works, are mutually exclusive, Romans 11:5-6.

And therefore, if you move over to being saved by your works after having been saved by grace through faith, then you are no longer saved by grace through faith. And since the latter is the only way to be saved, I conclude that you are no longer saved; because you are seeking to enter in through the works of the law rather than through the righteousness which is of God by faith.

You cannot be saved by grace through faith and also be saved (maintain your salvation) by works.

You either maintain your salvation by a walk of faith or you do not maintain your salvation at all.

Therefore, the works that you do must be works of faith if they are going to save you.

And yet, it is not the works that save; but it is the faith that produces them that would truly be your salvation.

The works produced would be the evidence of a living faith in Jesus Christ; which alone saves you.

Because regeneration and renewal is a working of the Holy Ghost within me, that is not brought about by anything that I have done or will do. It was accomplished in the first place through my faith in Jesus Christ; and it continues to be a work in my heart through faith in Jesus Christ.

When we abide in Him, our lives will be different than when we were not born again and abiding in Him.

Now if we attempt to bear good fruit apart from abiding, all we will produce is dead works.

But if we focus on a relationship with Christ, the result will be that we produce good fruit accompanied by works that are living; because they stem from relationship rather than an attempt to earn continued acceptance before God.

I agree with all you've said.
When did I ever say differently?

I DO believe works KEEP US SAVED and I'll tell you why.
Doesn't Paul also teach that WE ARE to renew our mind daily?
So that we may PROVE what the will of God is...
Romans 12:2 that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

What do you think is acceptable to God?
He already has our heart.

We are told to overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:21 Does that sound to you like GOD will do this or do YOU have to do the overcoming? Please don't say it's the Holy Spirit,,,He helps us, He doesn't DO for us otherwise everytime we sin it would be HIS fault for not CAUSING us to DO the right thing.

Romans 13:2 tell us that we are not to resist authority.
It does NOT say that the Holy Spirit will MAKE US respect authority.

Don't you see, by reading the entire N.T. that it is YOU who will be doing good works?

I agree with all you've said except when you admonish me to stop teaching obedience/works. Do you suppose God wants us to say that obedience/works ARE necessary, or that they are not?

What if you stop obeying God?
What did Jesus say about those who are considering becoming a disciple?

Luke 14:27-29
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him

Jesus plainly says that we are to carry our own cross...
God HELPS US to carry it...He does not carry it for us.

Jesus also stated what happens when we DO NOT follow Him as disciples:

Luke 9:62
62But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

What does not being fit for the Kingdom mean to you?
To me it means that person has stopped picking up his cross...
He has stopped following Jesus...
He has stopped being a disciple...
He is no longer fit to be a member of the Kingdom.

 

[GodsGrace]

They did understand to some degree. If you look at the Book of Job (which is thought to predate the Torah--technically only the first five books of the OT) he appears much as we would think of him today--he taunts God and is the source of Job's affliction. What the O.T. saints thought was that God permitted Satan to do his evil deeds to test men--the same as today.

That is something of a given since Israel thought of themselves as God's Chosen Ones (the Elect). They identified with Yahweh.

So do we. God says He creates calamity. For the O.T. saints, they did not make a distinction between "what God permits and what He wills" (which I am not convinced is a Biblical notion). That might work as an apologetic for a Being who is not omnipotent, but I don't think that we have been given that "out" by God. He says He will have mercy for those He chooses to gain mercy. God is sovereign and He is not a man that He should lie. In the End, no one will say that God is not just. I trust that He holds all things in His hands and questioning His decisions will get us spinning our wheels, like Job.

There is a lot of confusion on this point. What is translated as "hell" in our English-language Bibles is actually two different words: sheol --Hebrew for the "place of the dead," which is roughly equivalent to the Greek word, hades. Gehenna is Aramaic for "the Lake of Fire". Jesus used both of the words, hades and gehenna but the English translators made no distinction and called them both, "hell". Jesus' parable of the "Rich Man and Lazarus" from Luke 16, depicts hades exactly the way that the rabbis taught about the afterlife. The Jews listening to the parable would have found it consistent with their rabbi's teaching on the subject. It was thought that the "place of the dead" (sheol or hades) was divided into two sections with an unbridgeable chasm in between. In the parable, Abraham is speaking from the place of the righteous dead (known as "paradise" or "the bosom of Abraham") an Edenic place of beauty, comfort and peace. The rich man is in "the place of torment" (the other part of hades or sheol). The "place of torment" was thought to be a sort of jail where the souls of the unrighteous dead were kept (and punished) until Final Judgment. There were different levels, with punishment of increasing intensity, as one descended through the "place of torment". At the bottom, it was thought that there was a gate leading out to a road that those condemned to the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) would be forced to walk before being thrown into the Lake of Fire. There was also the "outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" which would exist outside the "camp of God"--the Kingdom of God on earth.

What do you believe happens after the final judgement
and what happens with the Lake of Fire?

Regarding Job....the devil was known as the adversary...which is translated devil in either greek or hebrew...can't remember right now.

I do agree pretty much with all you've stated.

 

[Grailhunter]

Right. I think I posted that the Pharisees believed in the afterlife and the Sadducees did not. Don't know why. I know the Pharisees were more legalistic and kept the law to the "T" and the sadducees were more "high class" priests.

The N.T. has more revelation than the O.T.
I do keep repeating that the persons in the O.T. attributed everything to God only (not to the enemy) even what God did not do....many don't accept this but it become much easier to understand the O.T. if this is understood.

The reason I brought all this up....besides to tic off Lady Crosstalk apparently...was to lead to a discussion about Christ's ministry.
Christ was behind the proverbial eight ball when it came to trying to convert the Jews. He had to hide the fact that he was a God from them. When he performed miracles, as you know he would tell people to keep it a secret. As we read through His ministry, sometimes HE was talking to mixed crowds and sometimes He was talking directly to Jews and sometimes to His Apostles. I believe it is important to keep track of who He is talking to, because sometimes He is talking to Jews about Judaism and some want to pull that into Christianity. I think a good example of that is the story of the sheep and the goats. A person can take away from that story that you can go to Heaven or hell based on the fact that you helped your brother.

The other point is that some people don't like the Jews because they instigated Christ's crucifixion. Considering the fact that they were not looking for a God Messiah and would consider anyone that claimed to be a God Messiah blasphemy, they did exactly what was in accordance with their beliefs. And also they were looking for a human king warlord, not a peace loving God.

Christ was dealing with Jews and a good part of them if He told them that if they believed in Him that they would be saved, they would reply, saved from what? Since they did not have complete understanding of Hell and Satan.

I know that you and I differ in this....I do not believe any part of Judaism, religion or Law should be included into Christianity. But it is helpful to understand the truth about Judaism because it can help explain what is going on during the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

NO! You are badly mistaken. In the opening chapter of the Gospel of John, we see John the Baptist declaring, as Jesus walks toward him, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (verse 29) Nothing in the New Testament makes any sense at all, if we cannot acknowledge Jesus in that role. Paul did NOT formulate the Atonement. It was always there speaking to us from the Old Testament! If you keep this up, both you and Grailhunter will fall into a ditch.



THAT IS A LIE. Please don't continue in this vein. To show you what a lie it is and this is just off the top of my head: Even a man ("the rich young ruler") outside the religious hierarchy says to Jesus, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Matthew 19:16).

Grailhunter, there is NO "secret knowledge" that stands against the word of God. They are all lies from the evil one. Why do you think Jesus calls Satan a liar and the father of lies? Do you not understand that Satan has always been active in perverting sound doctrine and throwing doubt on the word and the Word of God?

Lady C,,
We all understand a lot more than you give us credit for.
Grailhunter meant the O.T.,,,it was just a mistake to write N.T.
WE ALL KNOW Jesus spoke of heaven in the N.T.

You state that in the opening chapter of John, it is said that Jesus is the perfect lamb of God.

When was this letter written?
It was written many years after Jesus died. Maybe 85 AD or so.
Jesus died in about 27 AD or so.

The Apostles and Early Church Fathers (theologians) had plenty of time to work out WHY Jesus had to die. This was foreseen in the O.T. and this is not rejected by any scholar. However, details were definitely determined after Jesus' death.
If you recall...the Apostles didn't really understand that Jesus was going to die and resurrect...even though He had said it...it was beyond their understanding.
Were they not surprised when Mary and Mary went to advise Peter and John that the tomb was empty?

There are many atonement theories and each one was arrived at by careful biblical study.

The two oldest theories are:
The Moral Influence Theory
The Ransom Theory

more came later.

 

[Grailhunter]

What do you believe happens after the final judgement
and what happens with the Lake of Fire?

Regarding Job....the devil was known as the adversary...which is translated devil in either greek or hebrew...can't remember right now.

I do agree pretty much with all you've stated.

Satan can be translated to either adversary or accuser. As far as judgement and the lake of fire, that is a good topic. Good and bad, heaven and hell. There is some debate, as to if the Bible is meaning real fire of just the worst thing that their minds could imagine at the time. As far as judgement and the disposition of souls....its my belief that there are several levels of Hell, several levels of Sheol, and several levels of Heaven. Who can know for sure. Like the changes between the Old and New Testament...since Christ did not return quickly, as was anticipated there maybe some changes to what we expect in future. Now that will infuriate a few people!

 

[Grailhunter]

Lady C,,
We all understand a lot more than you give us credit for.
Grailhunter meant the O.T.,,,it was just a mistake to write N.T.
WE ALL KNOW Jesus spoke of heaven in the N.T.

You state that in the opening chapter of John, it is said that Jesus is the perfect lamb of God.

When was this letter written?
It was written many years after Jesus died. Maybe 85 AD or so.
Jesus died in about 27 AD or so.

The Apostles and Early Church Fathers (theologians) had plenty of time to work out WHY Jesus had to die. This was foreseen in the O.T. and this is not rejected by any scholar. However, details were definitely determined after Jesus' death.
If you recall...the Apostles didn't really understand that Jesus was going to die and resurrect...even though He had said it...it was beyond their understanding.
Were they not surprised when Mary and Mary went to advise Peter and John that the tomb was empty?

There are many atonement theories and each one was arrived at by careful biblical study.

The two oldest theories are:
The Moral Influence Theory
The Ransom Theory

more came later.

You state that in the opening chapter of John, it is said that Jesus is the perfect lamb of God.
I guess I missed the point of why there is a concern about this.....

 

[GodsGrace]

We are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s)!

So our relationship to the law is that it no longer condemns us.

This does not mean that we are disobedient. On the contrary, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:19, Luke 7:36-50); and this love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

It is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

In other words, it is practical, not esoteric.

We obey the law because we love the Lord with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength; and our neighbor as ourselves. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We receive this practical love through faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of the Lord: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is the gift of righteousness that we receive by faith (Romans 5:17), even the love of God shed abroad in our heart.

It is a free gift given to us by God (Romans 5:15-19).

Now if I am given a free gift, it would be an insult to the giver if I offer to pay for it.

But this is exactly what you do when you preach, teach, and believe that you maintain your salvation by works.

I agree that we work out of love.
But this does not make it correct to print black on white that works do not continue to keep us saved.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said:
YOU ARE MY FRIENDS IF YOU DO WHAT i COMMAND YOU.
John 15:14

What does that mean?
It means that IF WE DO NOT DO what He commands we are not His friends.

Do YOU always obey God because you love Him?
No.
So obedience is a part of our WILL to serve Him,,,whether or not we feel that love at any given moment.

Could you explain what sanctification is?
I can't remember if I've ever asked you this: