Please explain this.

[Grailhunter]

... but for heaven sakes, don't read the BIBLE or you might read:

• [John 6:43-44] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• [John 10:26-29 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• [Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

• [Romans 9:10-13 NASB] 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived [twins] by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

• [Romans 9:15-18 NASB] 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

• [Romans 9:21-24 NASB] 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

• [Ephesians 2:1-9 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Common theme ... just maybe, it isn't all about US, ... maybe, it is all about GOD!
Not what we do, but what God has done.

That is the heart of Calvinism (and we Calvinists believe it because Scripture teaches it).
... Feel free to think that God is sitting in heaven wringing his hands and hoping someone will accept the offer that His son DIED to provide if that is the image of God that you prefer to the God of scripture that chooses whom He WILL save from among a rebellious humanity that is universally born ashamed of their nakedness and hiding from God, like Adam and Eve in the Garden.

• [John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

(We do a disservice stopping at John 3:16 because there is more to that message. Men hide and God saves.)

Just for the entertainment value I will answer. Oh, and by the way good response there @Lady Crosstalk. @atpollard, In your opinion do these scriptures prove anything when you know people can shoot counter scriptures right back at you????

 

[JohnPaul]

We have grown comfortable with the "mental health/illness" paradigm--but that doesn't make it true. Psychiatrist, Karl Menninger of the famed Menninger Clinic, once entitled a book with the plaintive question: Whatever Became of Sin? He objected to more and more conditions being blamed on "illness" rather than just plain evil. Real evil has been done to those who suffered childhood sexual abuse and those scorched by the evil need to get help from the Lord Jesus who is the Great Physician--the ONLY one who can take away the heart wounds they have suffered. Otherwise, they will continue to act out of the pain, rage and false shame over what was done to them--or worse, seek to victimize children in the way that they were victimized.

But there are those who weren’t abused and are sick in the head and need to be cured of their deviancy.

I believe in evil I see it around me everyday. I pray every day.

 

[atpollard]

See, this is the biggest beef I have with you Calvinists. You have your pet passages ("proof texts") which you use to support your theology but you ignore the ones which don't agree with it.

The problem with pointing a finger at someone, is that three fingers point back at you.

I might point out that YOU made no attempt to address the text which I quoted, even as you accuse me of ignoring the text which you provided.

However, just to prove my point that Calvinists are not afraid of scripture but came to our beliefs because of scripture, I will address your text even though you merely ignore, criticize or reject the scripture that I quote.

• [John 5:39-47 NASB] 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the [one and] only God? 45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Who is able to believe?

Is it the "natural man"?

• [1Co 2:14] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Is it the man whose mind has been "blinded"?

• [2Co 4:3-4] And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is it everyone who "seeks for God"?

• [Rom 3:10-11] as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

YOU TELL ME ... Who is ABLE to believe by his own strength? Who does not require the DRAW of John 6:44? Who can believe without being one of His sheep (John 10:26) who were given to Christ by the Father (John 10:29)? Which verse in scripture abrogates all of these claims to the sovereignty of God over the salvation of men?

Illuminate the scripture for this poor, ignorant Calvinist who believes God means what God wrote.

Since you will probably complain that I have avoided your actual text, let's take a verse by verse examination:
[John 5:39-47 NASB]

• 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

I agree with that. Nobody is saved by reading the bible, they are saved by the PERSON of Jesus Christ (not what they do).

• 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

I would argue that this verdict applies to ALL PEOPLE. That is why the father must DRAW (like fish in a net) and GIVE some of the sheep to the Good Shepherd (Jesus) who lays down his life for his flock and searches out His lost sheep.

• 41 "I do not receive glory from men;

No argument from me. God does not seek men's approval for anything that He does ... not even saving people.

• 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

Sounds like we are back to "NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD" (Romans 3:11), so maybe Paul and Jesus were on the same page.

• 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

Jesus is making a statement of fact: "You do not receive me". He did not say "you cannot receive me", so this verse does not confirm my teaching from other verses. He did not say "you choose not to receive me", so this verse does not refute my teaching or confirm any "free will" teaching that it was all their personal choice. This verse is just a simple statement of fact neutral on the question of the ability of man to initiate faith, or the need for God to choose whom He will save.

• 44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the [one and] only God?

You realize that Jesus is stating that these people cannot believe, which is exactly what Calvinism claims Scripture teaches. Unbelief comes from people (and all people have it in abundance) and belief only comes from God ... hence the "foreknew" and "predestined" and "draws" and "My sheep".

• 45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

Jesus warns that people who set their hopes on THEIR ability to do something, like follow the Law or choose to believe, are building a false hope ... only faith in God given by God to those chosen by God (like Abraham) is a foundation to build hope upon. Because it rests on the character of God and not the character of men.

• 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

I agree. Faith in God is faith in God. One either trusts in God to be God or one trusts in man to build a tower to heaven. They had no faith and God had not chosen to give it to them. Not DRAWN. Not HIS SHEEP. Not FOREKNOWN.

• 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Just like the "natural man" (1Co 2:14) or the man "blinded to the gospel" (2Co 4:3-4).

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

But there are those who weren’t abused and are sick in the head and need to be cured of their deviancy.

I believe in evil I see it around me everyday. I pray every day.

Sometimes they don't see what they suffered as abuse. Many pedophiles prefer to target boys and girls in the "gray" age bracket of 12-14. That is an extremely vulnerable age for confirming heterosexuality and the abuse (and it is REAL abuse) is often somewhat violent, follows the administration of drugs and/or alcohol by the pedophile, and is always coercive. It circumvents normal development and can put that individual on a deviant path--especially when the adult male pedophile convinces the child that it is somehow his fault or his nature. That is the ugly truth. I have counseled women who were victims of childhood sexual abuse.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is why we desperately need revival!



Which only proves my point.
.
.
.


Except that the scripture tells us it is possible to never fall...Hebrews 10:14, 2 Peter 1:10, Jude 1:24, 1 John 2:10, 1 John 2:17.



I went to the Nazarene Church for quite a few years; and yes, they do teach the doctrine of entire sanctification.



You are being condescending...but I will retort that I also find that you do not understand some very basic concepts in the holy scriptures.



1 John 3:9 would tell us that that person is not born of God.



It's Holy Ghost.



That wouldn't be Christ-like.

Also, I didn't claim there are no non-essentials, I said that we need to strive to find accuracy and unity even in the non-essentials.



Jesus applied it across the board in Luke 14:33 (kjv).

Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

I'm certain that now you will go to another translation, heaping up for yourself a teacher in the translator of it, to tell you what your itching ears want to hear...

Hey JBF,,,
I too wish we could have a revival.
Know why we won't?
Because the parents of today's kids are not oriented toward Christianity.
I think this is either the first or the second generation of this phenomenon...
IOW,,,two generations of non-believers living together in the same house....parents and children.

It would be interesting to take one verse at a time and speak about ONLY that one...you throw them out and I can't take the time to go through all of them.

The reason I've been continuing to answer you is because I think this is an important point and I think you're making a big mistake by believing we cannot sin.

Now, if you believe the bible teaches this...then I surely hope that YOU never are sinning since IF you ARE, by your theology, it would mean that you are NOT a Christian.

If you can live with that OK.
However, the Apostles did not live with that and neither did the ones they taught.

So...your choice.
I just hope those reading along do not get discouraged.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the Holy Spirit baptism IS the born-again experience. The gift of tongues is just one evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul lists eight in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. There are, according to some, as many as 19 different spiritual gifts. I have read that, in the early Church, the laying on of hands by the elders, was a normal part of the baptism of a believer. The Apostle Paul makes reference to it in 1 Timothy 4:14 and says that Timothy received a spiritual gift at that time. Paul said that he spoke in tongues but that not all did. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul takes up the subject of spiritual gifts again. He said that he would rather have five understandable words to help others than 10,000 words in an unknown language (verse 19). He commends the gift of prophecy and we know from Revelation 19:10 that "the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus." I have seen some pastors who seem to have the gift of prophecy.

Hey LC...
I didn't mean all of the above...although it's all correct.
You had stated that you had a "second" experience when you became saved.
I was asking about THAT.
I was wondering what it could have been.
If you don't want to continue with this...,that's fine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've read some--Irenaeus in particular. But there is a fair bit of controversy about their writings too. Origen is particularly criticized. Probably the fact that he came from Alexandria (where there was a strong influence of gnosticism) is at the base of a lot of it. Even Augustine undoubtedly made some errors based on the fact that he didn't read Greek and that he used an inferior Latin text and also because he was a pagan for many years before his conversion. It is the Holy Spirit who leads to truth and it is my opinion that NO ONE but He has ALL the truth, or ever will have until we go to heaven where there will be nothing but truth ever spoken.

Augustine was a manichaen for about 10 years before he became Christian.
He surely brought some of those beliefs with him.

Also, he changed his mind on important topics during his lifetime, so I have little regard for him. He DID, by the end of his life, believe in FREE WILL.
At least he did that. AND, he admitted that he did not know, nor can it be known, where evil comes from.

 

[JohnPaul]

Sometimes they don't see what they suffered as abuse. Many pedophiles prefer to target boys and girls in the "gray" age bracket of 12-14. That is an extremely vulnerable age for confirming heterosexuality and the abuse (and it is REAL abuse) is often somewhat violent, follows the administration of drugs and/or alcohol by the pedophile, and is always coercive. It circumvents normal development and can put that individual on a deviant path--especially when the adult male pedophile convinces the child that it is somehow his fault or his nature. That is the ugly truth. I have counseled women who were victims of childhood sexual abuse.

That is terrible Lady Crosstalk, I’ve read about cases where parents abuse their own children sexually, they have to be of the devil.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The problem with pointing a finger at someone, is that three fingers point back at you.

Yeah, we've all heard that one before. I'm arguing with your theology--not accusing you personally. I would have the same problem with your theology, if it was espoused by a robot.

I might point out that YOU made no attempt to address the text which I quoted, even as you accuse me of ignoring the text which you provided.

See? Now you've made it a personal accusation against me. l know ALL of the texts that Calvinists use but I preferred not to take them all on--too time consuming at the time--I had to be somewhere. In any case, I agree with much of Calvinism's observations of Scripture--but I don't always agree with the conclusions where Calvinists land. I wanted to point to an exception. Exceptions tend to deny the premise--all it takes is one really, and then it is "back to the drawing board". One should always be ready to refine one's theology, in my opinion.

However, just to prove my point that Calvinists are not afraid of scripture but came to our beliefs because of scripture, I will address your text even though you merely ignore, criticize or reject the scripture that I quote.

• [John 5:39-47 NASB] 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the [one and] only God? 45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Who is able to believe?

Is it the "natural man"?

• [1Co 2:14] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Is it the man whose mind has been "blinded"?

• [2Co 4:3-4] And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is it everyone who "seeks for God"?

• [Rom 3:10-11] as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

YOU TELL ME ... Who is ABLE to believe by his own strength? Who does not require the DRAW of John 6:44? Who can believe without being one of His sheep (John 10:26) who were given to Christ by the Father (John 10:29)? Which verse in scripture abrogates all of these claims to the sovereignty of God over the salvation of men?

I have already stated that I agree with much of the Calvinist's observation of Scripture. I fully accept that it is the Father who draws humanity to His Son--that He testified of Jesus while Jesus walked the earth and that He now testifies of Jesus through the Church by means of the Holy Spirit.

lluminate the scripture for this poor, ignorant Calvinist who believes God means what God wrote.

Is sarcasm really necessary?

Since you will probably complain that I have avoided your actual text, let's take a verse by verse examination:
[John 5:39-47 NASB]

• 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

I agree with that. Nobody is saved by reading the bible, they are saved by the PERSON of Jesus Christ (not what they do).

Check--I also agree with the notion that one is saved by the Second Person of the Godhead--through the rebirth that comes from the indwelling of the Third Person. Without that intervention of God, the Bible is mere words (even the KJV is mere words without it--are you listening, KJV-only people?)

• 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

I would argue that this verdict applies to ALL PEOPLE. That is why the father must DRAW (like fish in a net) and GIVE some of the sheep to the Good Shepherd (Jesus) who lays down his life for his flock and searches out His lost sheep.

I already agreed that it is the Father who draws.

"I do not receive glory from men;
No argument from me. God does not seek men's approval for anything that He does ... not even saving people.

• 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

Sounds like we are back to "NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD" (Romans 3:11), so maybe Paul and Jesus were on the same page.

• 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

Jesus is making a statement of fact: "You do not receive me". He did not say "you cannot receive me", so this verse does not confirm my teaching from other verses. He did not say "you choose not to receive me", so this verse does not refute my teaching or confirm any "free will" teaching that it was all their personal choice.

I never said that I thought it was ALL their personal choice. In my original post to you I acknowledged that the Jewish religious authorities could not believe but Jesus said that it was because of the pride which was in their hearts. Who put the pride there? We know it wasn't God because God hates human pride. Isn't pride always a human choice, stemming from their desire to be their own god?

This verse is just a simple statement of fact neutral on the question of the ability of man to initiate faith, or the need for God to choose whom He will save.

• 44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the [one and] only God?

You realize that Jesus is stating that these people cannot believe, which is exactly what Calvinism claims Scripture teaches. Unbelief comes from people (and all people have it in abundance) and belief only comes from God ... hence the "foreknew" and "predestined" and "draws" and "My sheep".

Are they unable to believe because God did not draw them? Or is it because they have hardened their hearts? Children start out with tender hearts but the hardness of the hearts of those around them cause them to make the decision to harden their own hearts. We are vulnerable to the machinations of the evil one who rules this world. I would posit that it is our responsibility to put the evil one in his place using Scripture to rebuke him--just the way that Jesus did. But, we must freely choose to do that--just as Jesus did.

• 45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

Jesus warns that people who set their hopes on THEIR ability to do something, like follow the Law or choose to believe, are building a false hope ... only faith in God given by God to those chosen by God (like Abraham) is a foundation to build hope upon. Because it rests on the character of God and not the character of men.

I agree with this. Humans always appear to be uncomfortable with the idea that God is God and they are not.

46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
I agree. Faith in God is faith in God. One either trusts in God to be God or one trusts in man to build a tower to heaven. They had no faith and God had not chosen to give it to them. Not DRAWN. Not HIS SHEEP. Not FOREKNOWN.

But, is it because of God's choice or their own to turn away from Him?

• 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Just like the "natural man" (1Co 2:14) or the man "blinded to the gospel" (2Co 4:3-4).

Were we not all "natural" once? Were we not all "blinded to the gospel" once? Just asking questions. I am not at all so certain as you seem to be.

 

[farouk]

Yeah, we've all heard that one before. I'm arguing with your theology--not accusing you personally. I would have the same problem with your theology, if it was espoused by a robot.

See? Now you've made it a personal accusation against me. l know ALL of the texts that Calvinists use but I preferred not to take them all on--too time consuming at the time--I had to be somewhere. In any case, I agree with much of Calvinism's observations of Scripture--but I don't always agree with the conclusions where Calvinists land. I wanted to point to an exception. Exceptions tend to deny the premise--all it takes is one really, and then it is "back to the drawing board". One should always be ready to refine one's theology, in my opinion.

I have already stated that I agree with much of the Calvinist's observation of Scripture. I fully accept that it is the Father who draws humanity to His Son--that He testified of Jesus while Jesus walked the earth and that He now testifies of Jesus through the Church by means of the Holy Spirit.

Is sarcasm really necessary?

Check--I also agree with the notion that one is saved by the Second Person of the Godhead--through the rebirth that comes from the indwelling of the Third Person. Without that intervention of God, the Bible is mere words (even the KJV is mere words without it--are you listening, KJV-only people?)
I already agreed that it is the Father who draws.

I never said that I thought it was ALL their personal choice. In my original post to you I acknowledged that the Jewish religious authorities could not believe but Jesus said that it was because of the pride which was in their hearts. Who put the pride there? We know it wasn't God because God hates human pride. Isn't pride always a human choice, stemming from their desire to be their own god?

Are they unable to believe because God did not draw them? Or is it because they have hardened their hearts? Children start out with tender hearts but the hardness of the hearts of those around them cause them to make the decision to harden their own hearts. We are vulnerable to the machinations of the evil one who rules this world. I would posit that it is our responsibility to put the evil one in his place using Scripture to rebuke him--just the way that Jesus did. But, we must freely choose to do that--just as Jesus did. I agree with this. Humans always appear to be uncomfortable with the idea that God is God and they are not. But, is it because of God's choice or their own to turn away from Him? Were we not all "natural" once? Were we not all "blinded to the gospel" once. Just asking questions. I am not at all so certain as you seem to be.

If we look at John 6 carefully, for example, we see that there is good evidence for BOTH the sovereignty of God AND human responsibility.

 

[GodsGrace]

If we look at John 6 carefully, for example, we see that there is good evidence for BOTH the sovereignty of God AND human responsibility.

F,
I don't have the inclination to get involved with this discussion on calvinism...
but explain to me how MAN IS RESPONSIBLE if he's a believer of that theology?

Calvinism TOTALLY removes responsibility from man.
How could I be responsible for how GOD created me?

You know the verses about the vessel for destruction?
You can't have it both ways...

 

[JohnPaul]

@Lady Crosstalk, here is a link to a terrible example: Michelle Martens and boyfriend injected her daughter with meth, sexually assaulted, strangled and dismembered 10-year-old Victoria on her birthday

Tell me this mother is not of Satan.

 

[farouk]

F,
I don't have the inclination to get involved with this discussion on calvinism...
but explain to me how MAN IS RESPONSIBLE if he's a believer of that theology?

Calvinism TOTALLY removes responsibility from man.
How could I be responsible for how GOD created me?

You know the verses about the vessel for destruction?
You can't have it both ways...

John 6.37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility there.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6.37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility there.

I have to leave for a while...
but I don't see it there.

As to the Father giving to Jesus.....
Didn't the N.T. also teach that Jesus brings us to God Father?

So which is it do you think?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

@Lady Crosstalk, here is a link to a terrible example: Michelle Martens and boyfriend injected her daughter with meth, sexually assaulted, strangled and dismembered 10-year-old Victoria on her birthday

Tell me this mother is not of Satan.

I didn't read the article--couldn't bear to read it, but I agree, those who would do this to a child are evil to the core.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Lady Crosstalk, here is a link to a terrible example: Michelle Martens and boyfriend injected her daughter with meth, sexually assaulted, strangled and dismembered 10-year-old Victoria on her birthday

Tell me this mother is not of Satan.

Greetings JohnPaul, Let me ask a question, do you know of someone that has these problems and you are wondering how to minister to them?

 

[marks]

Real evil has been done to those who suffered childhood sexual abuse and those scorched by the evil need to get help from the Lord Jesus who is the Great Physician--the ONLY one who can take away the heart wounds they have suffered. Otherwise, they will continue to act out of the pain, rage and false shame over what was done to them--or worse, seek to victimize children in the way that they were victimized.

Hi LC,

It's an interesting thing, learning about child sexual abuse, not to mention other childhood abuses, neglect, physical, all that. Horrifying, really, but when it's me, well, it takes on an new depth.

Your words above are dead on target.

. . . .

Fair warning . . . these are the kinds of posts I tend to delete after a bit. I'll have to see how I feel about all this self revelation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sometimes they don't see what they suffered as abuse. Many pedophiles prefer to target boys and girls in the "gray" age bracket of 12-14. That is an extremely vulnerable age for confirming heterosexuality and the abuse (and it is REAL abuse) is often somewhat violent, follows the administration of drugs and/or alcohol by the pedophile, and is always coercive. It circumvents normal development and can put that individual on a deviant path--especially when the adult male pedophile convinces the child that it is somehow his fault or his nature. That is the ugly truth. I have counseled women who were victims of childhood sexual abuse.

It is ugly, and it is true.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hey LC...
I didn't mean all of the above...although it's all correct.
You had stated that you had a "second" experience when you became saved.
I was asking about THAT.
I was wondering what it could have been.
If you don't want to continue with this...,that's fine.

What did you want to know? I think a lot of people have the rebirth at the time that they first believe--especially if they come to Christ early in their lives--before they have a chance to pile much sin upon sin and before much hardening of their hearts occurs.

 

[farouk]

What did you want to know? I think a lot of people have the rebirth at the time that they first believe--especially if they come to Christ early in their lives--before they have a chance to pile much sin upon sin and before much hardening of their hearts occurs.

It's a basic truth of John chapter 3, isn't it?