Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[101G]

Jesus is God and there in none else. The trinity doctrine is a doctrine of man and not God.

Amen, Isaiah 29:13 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men".

this was spoken by the Lord in the OT, and re-stated by the Lord in the NT. Mark 7:6 "He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

PICJAG.

 

[TheWind]

Amen, Isaiah 29:13 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men".

this was spoken by the Lord in the OT, and re-stated by the Lord in the NT. Mark 7:6 "He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

PICJAG.

The fear of the Lord Jesus is the beginning of the knowledge of God: but unbelievers despise knowledge and his commandments.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no source for God, but God is the source of Christ,

Christ is God; and therefore your statement is self-contradictory.

 

[TheWind]

Christ is God; and therefore your statement is self-contradictory.

Psalm 32:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

 

[shnarkle]

Christ is God; and therefore your statement is self-contradictory.

Not when one considers the difference between origin and means. This is what Paul does in 1 Corinthians 8:6. He points out that God is "OF WHOM" whereas Christ is "BY WHOM". We are of God and by Christ created. We return to the father through Christ. There is no other way. God cannot exist apart from Christ. Christ is synonymous with being/existence. It is through Christ that everything is brought into existence. We are all brought into Christ, and apart from Christ we can do nothing.

The father does not exist anywhere, and can only be approached through Christ. For all practical intents and purposes, Christ is God, but the distinction is in God manifest rather than potential. The term "God" is synonymous with potentiality, incomparability, unimaginability, omniscience and transcendence.

Potentiality, by definition doesn't exist. It can only be seen after it is manifest. The bible presents the name of God which means 'I will be'. In the new testament it is revealed as "I AM".

Incomparability precludes the possibility of any comparisons being made.
Unimaginability precludes the use of our imagination.
Omniscience precludes the possibility that God can be known; it is the difference between the Knower and the known.
Transcendence transcends anything and everything that can be known, or experienced.

Thus there must be a mediator; a medium. The medium originates from transcendence. It is God manifesting through this medium, but the medium emanates from God, and what emanates from God is not God, but the emanation. The problem is in not noticing the difference. It's difficult because there is only the medium or emanation.

Existence is eternal. There is no beginning or end to eternity, but there is an origin or source, and that is the biblical definition of God. It's a paradox because God cannot be defined in the first place. So the only referent for God is the word "God". The introduction to John's gospel is essentially pointing this out. The biblical authors are incredibly adept at using word play, and John's Introduction is a prime example. There is only the word "God". There is no referent for God except the word.

 

[justbyfaith]

and what emanates from God is not God, but the emanation.

I have a limited knowledge of what gnosticism preaches; but this is what that sounds like to me.

Consider that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); and that the Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

In light of this, can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

No one can, in effect, do this, except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

 

[101G]

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. did any one notice two things that stand out? or three.
1. the Source/head of every man, (male and female) is Christ, which is the title of God the Spirit diversified in "flesh". 2. the Source/head of Christ, "God shared in flesh" is the Spirit, God without flesh. notice, "the head of Christ is God", but it did not say, "the head of JESUS is God", because Jesus is God. only titles are used. "the head/source of the woman is the man". for the woman was taken out of Man.
so the Head/Source of all things is JESUS the Christ, God himself manifested in flesh. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". he, JESUS is the head/source of all things.

PICJAG.

 

[shnarkle]

I have a limited knowledge of what gnosticism preaches; but this is what that sounds like to me.

Consider that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); and that the Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Consider what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:6 where he distinguishes between God and Christ. There is only one Lord. However you want to view the Lord is up to you. Your perspective is the only place you can view it from.

In light of this, can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

Most definitely.

No one can, in effect, do this, except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

Anyone can say "Jesus is Lord", but only those to whom this is revealed by God can confess it in their heart. It is an essential distinction, not an effected one.

 

[justbyfaith]

Anyone can say "Jesus is Lord", but only those to whom this is revealed by God can confess it in their heart. It is an essential distinction, not an effected one.

But you can't say "Jesus is the Lord" in light of Ephesians 4:5 and Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21...with the added oomph of believing what you're saying.

Now can you?

 

[shnarkle]

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. did any one notice two things that stand out? or three.
1. the Source/head of every man, (male and female) is Christ, which is the title of God the Spirit diversified in "flesh". 2. the Source/head of Christ, "God shared in flesh" is the Spirit, God without flesh. notice, "the head of Christ is God", but it did not say, "the head of JESUS is God", because Jesus is God. only titles are used. "the head/source of the woman is the man". for the woman was taken out of Man.
so the Head/Source of all things is JESUS the Christ, God himself manifested in flesh. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". he, JESUS is the head/source of all things.

PICJAG.

The preposition "by" does not indicate source, but means. Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 8:6 where he distinguishes between the source which is God, and Christ which is the means. The father is referred to as "OF whom" all things are created while Christ is referred to as "BY whom" are all things created. Again, 'of' denotes source or origin while "by" or "through" denotes the means.

 

[shnarkle]

But you can't say "Jesus is the Lord" in light of Ephesians 4:5 and Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21...with the added oomph of believing what you're saying.

Now can you?

I don't know what you're trying to say here. What's your point?

 

[justbyfaith]

The preposition "by" does not indicate source, but means. Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 8:6 where he distinguishes between the source which is God, and Christ which is the means. The father is referred to as "OF whom" all things are created while Christ is referred to as "BY whom" are all things created. Again, 'of' denotes source or origin while "by" or "through" denotes the means.

Christ and the Father are One. The word and in 1 Corinthians 8:6 can be translated even, so that it can be rendered:

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; even one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Because scripture is clear that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and that that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't know what you're trying to say here. What's your point?

Say it if you can...

If you can't...then maybe you don't have the Holy Ghost

 

[shnarkle]

Christ and the Father are One. The word and in 1 Corinthians 8:6 can be translated even, so that it can be rendered:

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; even one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Because scripture clear that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and that that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Are you going to supply us with some evidence that supports your claim that "even" is the correct translation rather than "and"? I don't see anything about the Greek conjunction "kai" that indicates translating it as anything other than "and". I don't see anything from the context that lends itself to this interpretation either. I also looked at a quite long list of translations and so only one that even came close to suggesting your idea.

 

[shnarkle]

Say it if you can...

If you can't...then maybe you don't have the Holy Ghost

Being able to verbalize it isn't what the text is suggesting. Anyone can say these things. They're talking about truly believing what you're saying. They're referring to a confession of faith, not a profession of faith. It's the difference between what you've been taught to believe verses what you've witnessed, and the testimony you provide because of what you've witnessed.

 

[justbyfaith]

Being able to verbalize it isn't what the text is suggesting. Anyone can say these things. They're talking about truly believing what you're saying.

So, if you believe it, then say it...

Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

If you don't believe it, then say that...

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you going to supply us with some evidence that supports your claim that "even" is the correct translation rather than "and"?

I did:

Because scripture is clear that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and that that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

 

[101G]

The preposition "by" does not indicate source, but means. Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 8:6 where he distinguishes between the source which is God, and Christ which is the means. The father is referred to as "OF whom" all things are created while Christ is referred to as "BY whom" are all things created. Again, 'of' denotes source or origin while "by" or "through" denotes the means.

First thanks for the reply, second, ERROR, JESUS is God, who is LORD and Lord. and we can eliminate this "by" error quickly.
Who "Made and Created "all things". we suggest you see John 1:3 and isaiah 44:24 and tell us WHO is this the "source" of all creation. read both scriptures.

PICJAG.

 

[shnarkle]

First thanks for the reply, second, ERROR, JESUS is God, who is LORD and Lord. and we can eliminate this "by" error quickly.
Who "Made and Created "all things". we suggest you see John 1:3 and isaiah 44:24 and tell us WHO is this the "source" of all creation. read both scriptures.

PICJAG.

Jesus was a human being who lived a short life and was crucified, died and was buried. Jesus didn't make all things. The word made all things, and the word is effectively the symbol for God. The God of the bible transcends anything and everything that can be thought, understood, or experienced. Therefore there is only the word. There is no other referent for God other than the word itself.

There is no error in pointing out that the proposition "by" does not nor ever will denote source or origin.
by
[bī]
PREPOSITION

1. identifying the agent performing an action.
   synonyms:
   by means of · by use of · 
   [more]
2. indicating the means of achieving something.

As I already pointed out to you, Paul distinguishes between the origin and the means. He distinguishes between God the father and Christ the son. Paul figured this all out. One need simply look at the revelation that was given to him to understand what's really going on. This isn't complicated. Paul explains it so simply, most people just want to complicate things.

It really is so simple. Just look at the basic definition of words, and what Paul is saying.

 

[shnarkle]

First thanks for the reply, second, ERROR, JESUS is God, who is LORD and Lord. and we can eliminate this "by" error quickly.
Who "Made and Created "all things". we suggest you see John 1:3 and isaiah 44:24 and tell us WHO is this the "source" of all creation. read both scriptures.

PICJAG.

You need to understand that there's a difference between source/origin and means. You're conflating the two.

source
[sôrs]
NOUN

1. a place, person, or thing FROM WHICH something comes or can be obtained.
   "mackerel is a good source OF fish oil"
   synonyms:
   origin · place of origin · birthplace · spring · wellspring · fount · starting point · history · pedigree · provenance · derivation · root · etymology · beginning · genesis · start · rise · cause · author · originator · initiator · creator · inventor · architect · father · mother · provenience · fountainhead · begetter 

means
[mēnz]
NOUN

1. (means of somethingmeans to do something)
   an action or system BY WHICH a result is brought about; a method.
   "resolving disputes BY peaceful means" · 
   method · way · manner · mode · measure · fashion · process · procedure · technique · expedient · agency · medium · instrument · mechanism · channel · vehicle · avenue · course

With these facts in mind, take another look at 1 Corinthians 8:6
"there is but one God, the Father, OF WHOM are all things, and we in him; and one LORD Jesus Christ, BY WHOM are all things, and we BY him."

See how Paul distinguishes between the two? Do you see how Paul has shown that God is the source of creation while Christ is the means by which everything is brought into existence. This is equivalent to "the word" in John's introduction. John doesn't say that "in the beginning was God". He says that in the beginning was the word because that's all there is to begin with. The means of creation is what does all the creating, not the source. All of creation comes from God, but is no created by God.

Until you take a good long look at what Paul is saying here, you're never going to get it.