Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[justbyfaith]

The one Spirit, descended from eternity into time, to take on human flesh, and then released from that flesh, from time back into eternity.

This one Spirit, therefore, dwells next to Himself, side-by-side, in eternity.

The personality of the Spirit before He descended is different from the personality of the Spirit after He descended and ascended. After, He has lived as a human being and is therefore perfected as High Priest (Hebrews 2:10). Before, He could not be a perfect High Priest because He had no concept of what it means to live as a human being, subject to death.

 

[101G]

The one Spirit, descended from eternity into time, to take on human flesh, and then released from that flesh, from time back into eternity.

This one Spirit, therefore, dwells next to Himself, side-by-side, in eternity.

The personality of the Spirit before He descended is different from the personality of the Spirit after He descended and ascended. After, He has lived as a human being and is therefore perfected as High Priest (Hebrews 2:10). Before, He could not be a perfect High Priest because He had no concept of what it means to live as a human being, subject to death.

GINOLJC, to all. First, thanks for the reply. Second, released from that flesh? No, resurrected in that now glorified flesh/body of the spirit.
The one Spirit is himself in a glorified body. Look jbf God is everywhere, there is no next to someone else as with us humans. even in the glorified body, God is the share of himself intrinsically in flesh, so get that thought of two person standing next to each other out of your head.

The personality of God never changed only revealed, hence the term “the Word of God”, or Son. understand, Son when used, is speaking metaphorically of his, his, his, person, God's express image which is his, his, his, character. and character means son, his identity in flesh. that’s why he came in the likeness of human flesh, to express his personality. "for god so loved the World that he PROVIDED HIMSELF AS A LAMB. (see Genesis 22:8). through the suffering of geath is made perfect, and High Priest, in Glorification. Scripture Hebrews 4:14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

and in that body by his Spirit he fills heaven and earth. please note, in the glorified God is made manifested at any point in time and space, it's the "Intrinsic Spatial" of God, glorified in a body.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

Second, released from that flesh? No,

See Luke 23:46.

 

[101G]

See Luke 23:46.

and?

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

It shows that Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (into eternity).

 

[101G]

It shows that Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (into eternity).

jbf, Jesus is the Spirit. he commend his spirit, Luke 23:46 "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost". what is happening here is just what Scott and I was speaking of ....... the Office of the Holy Ghost. listen,
What was the meaning behind the Lord speech in Luke 23:46. he said, “Into thy hands I commend my spirit”. it was his spirit that was poured out on Pentecost. because another word for Commend is commit
G3908 παρατίθημι paratithemi (pa-ra-tiy'-thee-miy) v.
1. to place alongside, i.e. present (food, truth).
2. (by implication) to deposit (as a trust or for protection).
[from G3844 and G5087]
KJV: allege, commend, commit (the keeping of), put forth, set before
Root(s): G3844, G5087
see how the KJV can translate this word. to commiit as definition #2 states, to deposit (as a trust or for protection). which is a "PROMISE". his spirit that was poured out on Pentecost was that promise spirit. Acts 2:14-21 "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved". and this salvation is backed up by what the apostle Peter said, Acts 2:39 "For the "promise" is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". see, this is what was committed (Promised) commend to the Father, now let's clearly see this in scripture. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". why pray the father in order to GIVE us “another” comforter? answer, that which he "committed"/commend or promise was to be poured out on us. the key to understanding this in the word commend, which can be translated as "PROMISE". now we can see the true meaning of what the Lord Jesus was saying on the cross. To commend is to commit or promise his spirit will be poured out latter, and that’s why he prayed in John 14 for another (G243) Comforter, which is his spirit and not his flesh. For the word “give” in John 14:16 is the the Greek word,
G1325 δίδωμι didomi (d̮iy'-d̮ō-miy) v.
to give. The king James can translate this word as “COMMIT”, watch for the bold word below.
KJV: adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield

There is our word, “commit”, which means commend, Luke 23:46 "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost”. so the kingJames comes full circle With that we clearly understand what our Lord was saying on the cross.
and this office/function is describe in Revelation 1.

PICJAG

 

[justbyfaith]

jbf, Jesus is the Spirit.

No doubt.

Amen, you are preaching to the choir.

 

[shnarkle]

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.

if we look at what this says in the Hebrew, it suggests something else. The Lord is "YHVH", and "God" is "Elohim" which is the plural form, and requires a plural verb.

So I think that I have made it clear that there is a Oneness between the Father and the Son:

John 10:30,

I and my Father are one.

It should be clear that both Jesus and the Father are the one Lord of scripture.

Here again, John doesn't say, 'I am one with my father'. His articulation requires a plural verb as well. He can't be talking about one God or one lord when the subject is explicitly plural. You're quote from 1 Cor.8:6 is also a good example of Paul pointing out that the father and Christ clearly are being distinguished one from the other.

It's also interesting to note that while most people are familiar with the trinitarian "God in three persons", the creed states, "One in being with the father" which seems to show that we're dealing with one being, but not necessarily more than one person. Here again, I think Paul's articulation points out that God is the origin of being while Christ is the means of being or existence.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is clearly one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

In light of this, can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost. In other words, you can't confess it unless you are born again of the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3).

 

[101G]

if we look at what this says in the Hebrew, it suggests something else. The Lord is "YHVH", and "God" is "Elohim" which is the plural form, and requires a plural verb.




Here again, John doesn't say, 'I am one with my father'. His articulation requires a plural verb as well. He can't be talking about one God or one lord when the subject is explicitly plural. You're quote from 1 Cor.8:6 is also a good example of Paul pointing out that the father and Christ clearly are being distinguished one from the other.

It's also interesting to note that while most people are familiar with the trinitarian "God in three persons", the creed states, "One in being with the father" which seems to show that we're dealing with one being, but not necessarily more than one person. Here again, I think Paul's articulation points out that God is the origin of being while Christ is the means of being or existence.

GINOLJC, to all.
first, you're close whe you said, "which seems to show that we're dealing with one being, but not necessarily more than one person", we'll give you that, but yet, at the same time, so far from the truth when you stated, "One in being with the father". but consider this. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he".
we're going to ask you, is this one person, or two? the First (1 Person?) "WITH" the Last (1 Person?) is this two separate and distinct persons or ONE IN THE SAME PERSON?
now before you answer, watch the "with" here in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. is this two separate and distinct persons?

your answer to both please.

PICJAG.

 

[shnarkle]

GINOLJC, to all.
first, you're close whe you said, "which seems to show that we're dealing with one being, but not necessarily more than one person", we'll give you that, but yet, at the same time, so far from the truth when you stated, "One in being with the father". but consider this. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he".
we're going to ask you, is this one person, or two? the First (1 Person?) "WITH" the Last (1 Person?) is this two separate and distinct persons or ONE IN THE SAME PERSON?
now before you answer, watch the "with" here in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. is this two separate and distinct persons?

your answer to both please.

PICJAG.

There is only one person. There is only one God, but Paul points out that God is the origin of all that exists while Christ is the means by which all exists. There's a distinction being made, and while distinctions seem to separate, this is only because we're dealing with abstract ideas rather than the reality.

The word "person" comes from "persona" which means "a mask", or what is presented to the world. Christ is the personification of God presented to the world. The father is never presented to the world except through Christ. Christ is God manifest, but this manifestation is still just a manifestation of God. It is the only manifestation of God, but it is still just a manifestation of God who is essentially potentiality, origin, source.

We have the beginning and we have the end, but time is not two things. We have polarity which requires two poles, but polarity is not two things; it's one. We say that these two poles are one; polarity

 

[101G]

There is only one person. There is only one God, but Paul points out that God is the origin of all that exists while Christ is the means by which all exists.

we must disagree with that assessment, here's why. the Spirit, Jesus, is the orgin of "ALL THINGS", and not "by" or "through" him. for scripture clearly states, "the one who made all things was ALONE and BY HIMSELF. scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".
Alone and the only "by" was himself. so that want fly.

There's a distinction being made, and while distinctions seem to separate, this is only because we're dealing with abstract ideas rather than the reality.

not nesseary true, a disction can be natural, as with God in NATURAL flesh which is a distinction.... in the natural.

The word "person" comes from "persona" which means "a mask", or what is presented to the world. Christ is the personification of God presented to the world.

a Mask as said, is nothing but the building or tabernacle that we live in... the body. no one have seen 101G, but God, for all other have seen the "mask"/building that 101G dwells in no one has seen 101G souls, nor anyone else either. we all have on masks. but to say that Jesus is God mask, no, for he "equal" to God in Spirit. supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". well God said that no one is his "EQUAL", see Isaiah 40:18, Isaiah 40:25, and Isaiah 46:5. so that narrow it down to Jesus is God himself shared in flesh/mask. see our bodies are a covering or a building, a temple for our souls, and spirits to dwell in, just as a NATURAL building/temple have people/person/souls, and spirits living in it, so do our bodies have a person/soul, and spirit in it.

The father is never presented to the world except through Christ.

he is christ shared in flesh, see above.

but this manifestation is still just a manifestation of God

yes, an apperance of God in flesh.

We have the beginning and we have the end, but time is not two things.

time is either "eterinity" natural, meaning Spiritual, or lieaner, meaning artificial or made, what you just said, beginning and end.

PICJAG

 

[Mal'ak]

The word "person" comes from "persona" which means "a mask", or what is presented to the world. Christ is the personification of God presented to the world. The father is never presented to the world except through Christ. Christ is God manifest, but this manifestation is still just a manifestation of God. It is the only manifestation of God, but it is still just a manifestation of God who is essentially potentiality, origin, source.

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

There is not one scripture that supports "persona", you will never find it, because of the simple reason God is not the author of confusion. He would not declare Jesus as his Son seated on his right side in Heaven, but then say there is only one person. Just because humans can not grasp the concept of Jesus being God, but not the Father, does not mean both the Father and Jesus are liars when they tell us there are two of them.

In Matthew 17 Jesus is "transfigured...his face did shine as the sun...his raiment was white as the light", while on the mountain Jesus changed to his true form of his spiritual body while he spoke to Moses and Elias. If he was the "manifestation of God" as you suggested, when he transfigured to his spiritual body before the apostles, then they would no longer see the image of Jesus but see the Father, but they didn't as they saw a spiritual body in the image of Christ enough so they knew it was Jesus and could recognize him.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

When John was brought to Heaven during the great tribulation to witness for us what will happen, there was no flesh Jesus being a "manifestation of God". John was at the throne of God, beside the throne was Jesus. "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb". As we are told by Jesus when he was on Earth many times, he will go to heaven and stand on the right side of the Father, then when we get a view of Heaven we see that happening. But again, John is a liar and Jesus is a liar, better to believe man that just cant grasp spiritual concepts of how the trinity is possible by our flesh logic.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So they angels in Heaven right now are worshipping and talking to a "persona" of God? Sounds like you think the angels have a few bolts loose in their spiritual minds, to be worshipping a flesh persona that no longer exists once the flesh man Jesus died....crazy angels...what kind of nut job ward awaits us in Heaven?

"therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

 

[justbyfaith]

because of the simple reason God is not the author of confusion.

But of course, it is also true that the Triune nature of our Lord is not easily understood. His ways are above our ways, and his thoughts above our thoughts.

then they would no longer see the image of Jesus but see the Father, but they didn't

The following would indicate that in looking at Jesus, they saw the Father, even apart from the transfiguration:

Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[shnarkle]

There is not one scripture that supports "persona",

It's the root word. It's where the word "person" comes from.

person is originally of Greek derivation, from prosopon, and was used to denote a face, countenance or actor’s mask.

That is the definition of persona:

persona
[ˌpərˈsōnə]
NOUN

1. the aspect of someone's character that is presented to or perceived by others.In psychology, often contrasted with anima.
   "her public persona"
   • a role or character adopted by an author or an actor.
     synonyms:
     image · face · public face · character · personality · identity · self 

There's nothing confusing about the fact that a persona is a mask or the face presented to the world. Where confusion enters is when one becomes "two-faced"

Christ simply presents, or represents God to the world, and invites us all to look behind the mask. Sadly, most never get beyond the mask. Christ points to God, and we just stare obsessively at his finger.

 

[shnarkle]

the Spirit, Jesus, is the orgin of "ALL THINGS", and not "by" or "through" him.

All things were made BY him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

"Him" is explicitly referring to the aforementioned "word" which is Christ.

You're conflating the Spirit with the Word. Just as the invisible thought is manifested with the spoken word, so too, the Unmanifest God is revealed by the "Spirit breathed" Living Word. That word is the means of creation according to 1Cor.8:6

The Word is NOT the origin of all things, but the "beginning" of all things. Most can't help but conflate these two terms because they're practically synonymous until one becomes cognizant of the fact that God is not a "thing". John points out that "all things are made...etc"

for scripture clearly states, "the one who made all things was ALONE and BY HIMSELF.

You can't help but contradict yourself. You just claimed he couldn't be "by", but now you've just posted that he is "BY HIMSELF".

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

Well, what do you know? How is it all created? "BY" Who? Isn't it by His self? Isn't that the Lord's self? Isn't that Christ, the word?

a Mask as said, is nothing but the building or tabernacle that we live in... the body. no one have seen 101G, but God, for all other have seen the "mask"/building that 101G dwells in no one has seen 101G souls, nor anyone else either. we all have on masks.

I'll go along with that.

but to say that Jesus is God mask, no, for he "equal" to God in Spirit.

Equal to points to the fact that there is an equal sign which necessarily means there are two. You have God on one side of the equation, and you have Christ on the other side. Paul points out that God is the origin of existence while Christ is the means. All that exists originates in God, and all that exist is created by Christ, "and we BY him"

there is but one God, the Father, OF whom are all things, and we in him; and one LORD Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we BY him.

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

God's form is not God; it's God's form, and it is equivalent to God in that it exists. There is no other.

well God said that no one is his "EQUAL", see Isaiah 40:18, Isaiah 40:25, and Isaiah 46:5. so that narrow it down to Jesus is God himself shared in flesh/mask.

Yep. you just took my position.

see our bodies are a covering or a building, a temple for our souls, and spirits to dwell in, just as a NATURAL building/temple have people/person/souls, and spirits living in it, so do our bodies have a person/soul, and spirit in it.

Yep, and the temple is not God, it's his temple. Your body is not you, it's your body. You cannot be what you have. The verb to be cannot be the genitive of possession. It is not only grammatically incorrect, and contradictory, it is a persistent delusion.

time is either "eterinity"

No, time has nothing to do with eternity. There is no beginning or end to eternity. There is no "before" or "after" in eternity.

[/QUOTE] natural, meaning Spiritual,[/QUOTE]

No, natural does not mean spiritual. Look up the definitions of these words, and they are not in any way synonymous.

or lieaner, meaning artificial or made, what you just said, beginning and end.

The word WAS in the beginning. The word is the beginning and the end, and therefore cannot be artificial. Christ is "begotten, not made" as the creed points out. Christ is not what is produced, but the means by which every thing is produced or made. John 1:3

 

[justbyfaith]

The Word is NOT the origin of all things, but the "beginning" of all things.

That He is the beginning of all things means that He is the origin of all things.

Because it is clear that the Word was God in the beginning (John 1:1) and that God is " from everlasting to everlasting" (Psalm 90:2).

 

[shnarkle]

That He is the beginning of all things means that He is the origin of all things.

Because it is clear that the Word was God in the beginning (John 1:1) and that God is " from everlasting to everlasting" (Psalm 90:2).

These two terms "beginning" and "origin" are synonymous, but only when dealing with 'something'. God is not a "thing", nor is the word. Therefore the origin of the word is God, but the word has no beginning. The word is God manifest, or manifest God, but this doesn't negate the fact that Paul distinguishes between God, the Father and Christ. Again, the origin of all that exists is not the same as the means by which everything exists. Paul points out this logical fact which all the scripture in the bible only serves to support. There is no beginning to God or the word. Therefore these two terms cannot be synonymous. There is no source for God, but God is the source of Christ, and Christ admits this fact as well as pointing out that he must return to the source of all existence. When you understand that fact, it should all fall into place.

 

[101G]

The Word is NOT the origin of all things, but the "beginning" of all things. Most can't help but conflate these two terms because they're practically synonymous until one becomes cognizant of the fact that God is not a "thing". John points out that "all things are made...etc"

CREATE and MADE are diffrent in manner. to make it clear, G1849, exousia is the Source of CREATING, and G1411, dunamis is the MAKING of All things.
to be VERY CLEAR example. the Lord Jesus Created the Sun the Moon and the Stars in the beginning, but made them "shine" on day 4.
now shnarkle a question, was man CREATED upon the earth in the Beginning, or was Made upon the earth in the beginning? which one.

PICJAG.

 

[TheWind]

Jesus is God and there in none else. The trinity doctrine is a doctrine of man and not God.