Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[101G]

Jesus didn't make all things

ERROR, Jesus is the Shared Spirit in that Flesh, he MADE ALL THINGS. you're reproved.

The word made all things

Who is Jesus. reproved again.

and the word is effectively the symbol for God

Another ERROR on your PART, the Word is the express IMAGE of his, his, his, PERSON, so it's him in that flesh or mask, as the EQUAL hare of himself per Phil 2:6. so you're reproved again.

The God of the bible transcends anything and everything that can be thought, understood, or experienced.

ANOTHER ERROR on your part, scripture, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
so your statement you made is incorrect, and false, corrected by the bible God's holy Word. so again you're reproved.

There is no error in pointing out that the proposition "by" does not nor ever will denote source or origin.
by
[bī]
PREPOSITION

1. identifying the agent performing an action.
   synonyms:
   by means of · by use of · 
   [more]
2. indicating the means of achieving something.

another ERROR on your Part. the means is himself. scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".
see that "by" there.... he is the Sourse and the Means. for by his OWN wisdom he made all things, scripture, Psalms 104:24 "O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches". which confirms, Proverbs 8:22-31.... (smile)...

As I already pointed out to you, Paul distinguishes between the origin and the means.

God pointed out that he's the ORGINS and the MEANS, see above. again you're reproved.

One need simply look at the revelation that was given to him to understand what's really going on. This isn't complicated. Paul explains it so simply, most people just want to complicate things.

it is simple, just see above.

as for Post #1720, just read God's definition of SOURCE and MEANS, see above. so you're REPROVED. next.........


PICJAG,.

 

[shnarkle]

ERROR, Jesus is the Shared Spirit in that Flesh, he MADE ALL THINGS. you're reproved.

Who is Jesus.

Read what John actually wrote. He quite clearly points out that the word created all things, and THEN "the word became flesh". At that point, Jesus didn't produce much of anything more than whatever filled his diapers.

Another ERROR on your PART, the Word is the express IMAGE of his, his, his, PERSON,

And who's person is that?

so it's him in that flesh or mask, as the EQUAL hare of himself per Phil 2:6.

You're conflating the mask with what the mask conceals. You're contradicting yourself.

ANOTHER ERROR on your part, scripture, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

How about connecting the dots for us instead of using four different color fonts as well as three different size fonts. There's no way to tell what you're trying to emphasize.

another ERROR on your Part. the means is himself. scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".
see that "by" there.... he is the Sourse and the Means.

You're still conflating source and means. You're contradicting yourself. God's self is Christ. Christ belongs to God. The person is Christ who is God's personage. Christ returns to God. Christ doesn't return to himself.

God pointed out that he's the ORGINS and the MEANS,

Paul pointed out that God the father is the origin while Christ is the means. Your dispute is with Paul. Why don't you take it up with him? Do you believe Paul was deceived? If so, why? If not, then how do you reconcile what Paul wrote with your ideas?

 

[101G]

Just in case you didn't get it, which we see you didn't, lets make it plain.
Jeremiah 10:12 "He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

GOD SOURCE, “HIS OWN WISDOM”, he hath established the world by his wisdom There is your prep “by”.

GOD MEANS, “HIS OWN POWER” He hath made the earth by his power.

Now let’s put it all together as the apostle Paul says by the Holy Ghost, his teacher. 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God”.

Say WHAT! Christ the POWER, or as you so graciously pointed out, God MEANS, see your definitions you post of "means", and " source". And Christ the Wisdom, the SOURCE. Do you know what this means? JESUS "IS" GOD, shared in flesh. the Power and the Wisdom of, of, of, God. See you missed this prep, “Of” “of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning. Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned here, which need careful distinction. See, in flesh God HIMSELF is the Objective, and without flesh he’s the Subjective…. for of translate the genitive case of nouns, the same ONE PERSON. BINGO.

as the apostle Paul also said,
Hebrews 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

so again you're reproved.

now until you can understand the truth, "God is a DIVERSITY of himself in flesh", you will get reproved all the time. we suggest you study what "Diversified Oneness" is.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus didn't make all things. The word made all things,

Jesus is the Word.

John doesn't say that "in the beginning was God". He says that in the beginning was the word because that's all there is to begin with.

The Word was God (and is, and always will be...Psalms 90:2).

Christ belongs to God.

Christ is God.

I would suggest not paying attention to the words of shnarkle from this point forward; as he seems to be a proponent of gnosticism.

 

[shnarkle]

Jesus is the Word.

Jesus is the word "made flesh". That was after the word created everything. Jesus was in the world, but never created a thing while he was in the world. Before he was born, he wasn't Jesus. He didn't even receive his name until eight days after he was born.



The Word was God (and is, and always will be...Psalms 90:2).

Yep, the word is eternal, and the word is what manifests God; that's what allows God to exist. Again, you ignore Paul's words which explain the fact that God is the source or origin of all that exists. Therefore God can only exist in, with, and through Christ. This doesn't make Christ God, it only spotlights that God cannot be approached except in, with, and through Christ. Christ is the medium of exchange, the mediator, the copula, the Metaphor, the Symbol, the first person singular verb to be "I AM", "the Word", the equal sign in the equation. God is the source of all of that. God is on one side of the equation, and the objective created world is on the other side. God cannot exist on the other side of the equation because God is not a work of creation

 

[shnarkle]

Just in case you didn't get it, which we see you didn't, lets make it plain.
Jeremiah 10:12 "He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

GOD SOURCE, “HIS OWN WISDOM”, he hath established the world by his wisdom There is your prep “by”.

GOD MEANS, “HIS OWN POWER” He hath made the earth by his power.

Now let’s put it all together as the apostle Paul says by the Holy Ghost, his teacher. 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God”.

Say WHAT! Christ the POWER, or as you so graciously pointed out, God MEANS, see your definitions you post of "means", and " source". And Christ the Wisdom, the SOURCE. Do you know what this means? JESUS "IS" GOD, shared in flesh. the Power and the Wisdom of, of, of, God.

Yep. Of God means that Christ is of or from God. Christ points this out himself. He says, or rather John says that he came from God and returned to God.

See you missed this prep, “Of” “of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning.

Yep, and the genitive indicates possession. You cannot be what you possess. You possess eyes, you possess intelligence, you possess ideas, but you are not eyes, intelligence, or ideas. You are conflating one part of speech with another. You cannot conflate the verb to be with the genitive of possession without confusion.

in flesh God HIMSELF is the Objective, and without flesh he’s the Subjective…. for of translate the genitive case of nouns, the same ONE PERSON. BINGO.

There is only one person, but being is not objective or subjective. The body is not who anyone is; it is like clothing for the soul. You are not what you wear. To objectify God is to become an idolater. God is the same eternally, and God is not an object to be worshipped.

Hebrews 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

You definitely need to learn the difference between the verb to be and the genitive of possession because you constantly conflate the two.

 

[101G]

Yep. Of God means that Christ is of or from God. Christ points this out himself. He says, or rather John says that he came from God and returned to God.

you said, "yep", but yet you still don't understand.

Yep, and the genitive indicates possession. You cannot be what you possess. You possess eyes, you possess intelligence, you possess ideas, but you are not eyes, intelligence, or ideas. You are conflating one part of speech with another. You cannot conflate the verb to be with the genitive of possession without confusion.

ERROR, do you not possess your thoughts? sure, you can even write them down on paper, but is the ink and the paper your thoughts? yes, for they are the "MANIFESTATION" in phyical form. other words, they are the OBJECTIVE, of my "THOUGHTS", hence me. for Christ is the "OBJECTIVE" of the Spirit thoughts "MANIFESTED" in flesh. for the objective accomplish the will of the Subjective. Isaiah 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it". God is Spirit, subjective,invisible, abstract. now, the word, God is sent, or Come forth, visible, MANIFESTED in flesh, the objective, concrete. see the terms we use with or for God's actions are an anthropomorphism, who is Spirit, and is abstract.

There is only one person, but being is not objective or subjective. The body is not who anyone is; it is like clothing for the soul. You are not what you wear. To objectify God is to become an idolater. God is the same eternally, and God is not an object to be worshipped.

what you ware identifies who you are. example a Jezebel, we know what you are going to say, but why wewr it? just as with names. do you want your daughter to wear that NAME?. thanks made my point. see, a smile is generated on the inside, "SUBJECTIVELY", and is MANIFESTED outwardly on one's face. it's not the face that is smiling but the inward person. but without the face, there is no smile seen. so what's on the inside is manifest on the outside.

just as sin. it is "abstract", subjective,invisible, but when brought forth, "Concrete", objective, visible. as the Lord Jesus that comes forth from the Spirit.

Now to sum it all up, if a man lust after a woman, who sinned? the soul, that is abstract, or as you say the "BODY"? get it now. a body is not conscious of it's surrendering, only the Soul. but wait is not the soul ...... "Abstract"... (smile) ....

yes, it's what that soul is in (a body), concrete, that makes the soul conscious of the OBJECTIVE, as well as the SUBJECTIVE. supportive scripture, Hebrews 12:9 "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

so that body takes on the IDENITY, and or the bidding of the Spirit that's in it, which is determine by the actions of the soul.

PICJAG.

 

[shnarkle]

you said, "yep", but yet you still don't understand.

Speak for yourself.

do you not possess your thoughts? sure, you can even write them down on paper, but is the ink and the paper your thoughts? yes, for they are the "MANIFESTATION" in phyical form. other words, they are the OBJECTIVE, of my "THOUGHTS", hence me.

You really haven't given this much thought. The thoughts in your head are your thoughts. They are not you. Unless you think that you are a thought. Do you believe that you are a thought? To assume that you are your thoughts is to contradict yourself. Again, "you" (the second person singular verb to be) cannot be the same as "your" (the genitive of possession). They are two completely different parts of speech.

for Christ is the "OBJECTIVE" of the Spirit thoughts "MANIFESTED" in flesh. for the objective accomplish the will of the Subjective. Isaiah 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it". God is Spirit, subjective,invisible, abstract. now, the word, God is sent, or Come forth, visible, MANIFESTED in flesh, the objective, concrete. see the terms we use with or for God's actions are an anthropomorphism, who is Spirit, and is abstract.

Sounds about right. You seem to be catching on after all.

what you ware identifies who you are. example a Jezebel, we know what you are going to say, but why wewr it?

Could you try that question in English next time?

just as with names. do you want your daughter to wear that NAME?. thanks made my point. see, a smile is generated on the inside, "SUBJECTIVELY", and is MANIFESTED outwardly on one's face. it's not the face that is smiling but the inward person. but without the face, there is no smile seen. so what's on the inside is manifest on the outside.

Again, you seem to be seeing what I'm saying now.

just as sin. it is "abstract", subjective,invisible, but when brought forth, "Concrete", objective, visible. as the Lord Jesus that comes forth from the Spirit.

Not the best analogy.

Now to sum it all up, if a man lust after a woman, who sinned? the soul, that is abstract, or as you say the "BODY"?

Paul would say "the flesh".

is not the soul ...... "Abstract".

No, your ideas about soul are abstract.

so that body takes on the IDENITY, and or the bidding of the Spirit that's in it, which is determine by the actions of the soul.

PICJAG.

No. The body does not take on an identity. The body is identified, or used to identify. As closely related as identification is with identity; identification is not identity.

You're making progress.

 

[101G]

You really haven't given this much thought. The thoughts in your head are your thoughts. They are not you. Unless you think that you are a thought. Do you believe that you are a thought? To assume that you are your thoughts is to contradict yourself. Again, "you" (the second person singular verb to be) cannot be the same as "your" (the genitive of possession). They are two completely different parts of speech.

you speak carnal. what abstract is made manifest, as in the creation. if you thought of a new dress style, and your hands made it, it this you, the style?. yes, it's YOUR CREATION. this style manifest you.
if you sin is that you? yes, then you're a sinner. is sin abstract, or concrete? sin is abstract, but the work that manifest sin is concrete.

the rest was just vain babbling. Good day.

PICJAG.

 

[GodsGrace]

this is true, many don't know or understand what "begotten" identify, nor means. it's only a method and not the means. example,
1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel". BEGOTTEN here is the method and the means is the gospel.

knowing that, Jesus is never begotten....... let that soke in. watch this.......the Lord/Saviour is born, but not JESUS.... the flesh he came in was born...... (smile)...lol.
the Son of man, (son) is Given, NOT BORN. the son of God (child) is BORN. (see Isaiah 9:6).

if anyone thinks that Jesus was Born, Naturally, then they are still carnal in mind. the Lord Jesus "took part" in our humanity, not a partaker of it, big difference.

PICJAG.

What EXACTLY does begotten mean 101?
Because it is NOT a method.

BTW, JESUS was born. 2,000 years ago.
The 2nd person of the Trinity was begotten.

From the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus was begotten in the incarnation, Luke 1:35.

 

[shnarkle]

you speak carnal. what abstract is made manifest, as in the creation. if you thought of a new dress style, and your hands made it, it this you, the style?. yes, it's YOUR CREATION. this style manifest you.
if you sin is that you? yes, then you're a sinner. is sin abstract, or concrete? sin is abstract, but the work that manifest sin is concrete.

the rest was just vain babbling. Good day.

PICJAG.

You still don't seem to be catching on to a few simple rules of grammar. You are not the things you have. You are not the clothes you wear, the thoughts you think, the emotions you feel, or the things you experience.

"You" and "yours" are not synonymous. I must leave it at that. I'm not interested in debating those who have their own private definitions of words.

you
[yo͞o, yə]
PRONOUN

1. used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
   "are you listening?" · 
   [more]
   • used to refer to the person being addressed together with other people regarded in the same class.

your
[yôr, yo͝or]
DETERMINER

1. belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
   "what is your name?"
2. belonging to or associated with any person in general.

 

[101G]

To all my Trinity Believers. we see our resident experts didn't respond to the John 1:3 and the Isaiah 44:24 question. well lets make it plain. the term "Father", when used as a noun also means "MAKER", "CREATOR", and "ORIGINATOR". yes another word for "MAKER" is FATHER. you can find this definition at , https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/maker.html
this is why we pushed the John 1:1, John 1:3 and the Isaiah 44:24 question so much. the Maker of all things is the Father, hence the Word, in John 1:1 is the "FATHER" manifested in Flesh, (per John 1:14). but also the term "Father" also means "The FIRST", the Originator, as in the First and the Last. and JESUS is the First and the Last in Both the OT and the NT. Jesus is First in the OT as Spirit, the Father and "MAKER" of all things. and he's the "LAST", or the "END" of all these things, or the Last Adam.

so here's something for our resident expert to chew on, or anyone else. so read the definitions first, and then if you like can come back and discuss.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, Jesus and the Father are one and the same Person; whole there is also a distinction between them: in that one inhabiteth eternity as a Spirit; while the other dwells in a human body, incarnated in the flesh. It is answered in the understanding that the Father became the Son by taking on an added nature of human flesh and emptying Himself of the attributes of Deity.

Isaiah 9:6-7.

 

[101G]

Yes, Jesus and the Father are one and the same Person; whole there is also a distinction between them: in that one inhabiteth eternity as a Spirit; while the other dwells in a human body, incarnated in the flesh. It is answered in the understanding that the Father became the Son by taking on an added nature of human flesh and emptying Himself of the attributes of Deity.

Isaiah 9:6-7.

"whole there is also a distinction between them", yes , the SHARING of one self in flesh. lets see it plainly.
what was JESUS before the World? ....... that's right "Spirit", the only Spirit, STOP and think about that for a second. this Spirit, the Father, now diversified in flesh and MADE a little LOWER than the angels, eminated from the Father/Spirit/the First.... HIMSELF. NOW understand, JESUS is the "FIRST", and the "LAST". and the LAST" is him in Flesh, ao he is correct in saying, "MY FATHER", which he is, the "First" and now, shared in Flesh he, as the diversity is the "LAST". hence the scripture,

#1. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
did you hear that? he, he, he, he, is the "First", and he, he, he, he, is the "LAST". see the "WITH" there, the same as in John 1:1. this is the SAME person. now this,

#2. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. so the Lord Jesus is correct in saying "MY SPIRIT", or my FATHER, which is the "FIRST", and he in the diverstate of "Sharing is the "LAST".

so in conclusion, as the Last, he is correct in saying "my Father", which means the First. and in flesh, he's the "LAST", as in the "Last" Adam.
there is a lot more to this, but we'll end this here for now...

PICJAG.
.

 

[shnarkle]

Yes, Jesus and the Father are one and the same Person;

Well, yes and no. The word 'person' comes from the word "persona", and means "a mask; what is presented to the world". Christ is presented to the world. It is the person of Christ who is presented to the world. He is the face of God. He is the mask, but he is not the origin or source.

one inhabiteth eternity as a Spirit;

No, Christ is not "a spirit" as all spirits are created. Spirits are things that are created, and things do not create other things. "All things are created", and neither God nor the word are created, nor are they things.

while the other dwells in a human body, incarnated in the flesh.

No, that was over 2000 years ago. Jesus no longer dwells in a flesh body. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but counted it nothing and discarded it. Only he has returned to the Father, but he didn't return to the father in a flesh body as "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom.

It is answered in the understanding that the Father became the Son by taking on an added nature of human flesh and emptying Himself of the attributes of Deity.Isaiah 9:6-7.

I disagree. The father is transcendent, and can never be except in, with, and through Christ. Christ is not the father, he is the manifestation of God, but God is eternally infinite potential; e.g. "I will be"

Christ is "I am". It's the difference between becoming and being. The father will be eternally while Christ is eternally. The father is not Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[justbyfaith]

as all spirits are created.

You are here calling God a created being, as it is written, God is a Spirit, in John 4:24.

But you are not far off in that, since in the flesh, Christ had a created human body, so that it is faithful to be written,

Rom 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

and,

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Jesus no longer dwells in a flesh body.

You have just failed the test in the kjv of whether your spirit is of God (see 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7 (kjv)).

Many false prophets have gone out into the world; and you apparently are one of them.

 

[shnarkle]

You are here calling God a created being, as it is written, God is a Spirit, in John 4:24.

I've made no such claim whatsoever. The vast majority of translators have "God is spirit". At least the king james got the rest of it right with worshipping in spirit and truth rather than worshipping a spirit...etc.

You have just failed the test in the kjv of whether your spirit is of God (see 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7 (kjv)).Many false prophets have gone out into the world; and you apparently are one of them.

Evidently you don't have the rudimentary reading comprehension skills to distinguish between the present and past tense. I never claimed Jesus hasn't come in the flesh, I simply pointed out that he is no longer in the flesh. Fail. They don't refer to the devil as the Accuser for nothing, and those who are in the habit of accusing people of beliefs they've never held are undoubtedly just as liable for their false witness.

 

[justbyfaith]

The terminology in the kjv is present tense.

1Jo 4:1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2, Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3, And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So then, in order to claim that Jesus isn't come in the flesh, and to also not be violating the Spirit of God (carrying a spirit that isn't of the Lord), you would have to deny that the kjv is the word of the Lord.

Because if it is, then claiming that Jesus isn't come in the flesh means that you carry a spirit that isn't of the Lord.

And I see no reason to reject the kjv's rendering; as, in fact, to do so, is so very often a fulfillment of the prophecy found in 2 Timothy 4:3.

 

[justbyfaith]

The vast majority of translators have "God is spirit".

So, if God is spirit, how is He not "a" Spirit?

I find no reason to reject the kjv's rendering in this passage, that God is "a" Spirit.