What would you do different?

[shnarkle]

so you say, but i'm sure elsewhere you would just as vehemently be arguing for a literal interp there?

Could you elaborate on what you're talking about here?

And are you going to address the supporting vv, or you wanna run a denial test here, or what shnark,

Not sure what you're getting at here either.

bc wadr i am not interested in playing ringaroundtherosie with you ok. Admit that you hope to go up to heaven after you have died, or do not, idc

It's interesting that you ask if I want to go 'up' to heaven, yet you must admit that this caricature of Samuel comes 'up' from below. How do you reconcile that?

I reconcile it by the fact that "the dead don't know anything" (Eccl. 9:5), and yet the demons (Gr. "damone" meaning "sent from above", and currently living below) know plenty more than most would like to admit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

in order for you to go up to heaven (only after you have died of course) you must first accept that there is a place called hell in the "afterlife" that those who have not joined your coven and said the magic incantation will not have access to, yes? I know you would not put it that way, but what did you go out into the wilderness to see, sbg?

what do you say to ppl whom you "witness" to about your perspective of say "Jesus" or why they should become a Christian? Do we not dangle the fear of hell in some afterlife that we cannot even Quote from Scripture, and in fact can only Quote the opposite? All go to the same place, no one knows where they go when they die, you and your sons will be here with me. Now, Quote me where you are going to heaven after you have died, or where anyone else is going to hell, one single place, and let's look at it!

we all hope to be with God after we die, but what happened to life, more abundantly see? If you hope to be with God only after you have died, then how motivated would you be to be in some place called heaven that is within you right now, return to Me and I will return to you? Understand I AM. The only way the belief can even be forwarded is mass hallucination, see, bc you sure cant demonstrate it from Scripture on the whole, this pov can only be foisted upon the ignorant and unwary, who do not know Scripture, and do not want to know, seems to me anyway.

I do not agree that there is not a place called hell. There is. But I have never told anyone they are going there. I also think hell and death will be annihilated, not eternal. Once again we have this conversation. I think the worse fate is outer darkness. That is the fate worse than the second death, from what I read.

 

[shnarkle]

did the Scriptures tell us that the Witch of Endor saw Samuel, or not?
Wouldnt that have been the pplace to indicate any subterfuge going on, a la "she said she saw samuel" or something similar?

At no time have I suggested that the witch of Endor was perpetrating a con or subterfuge. The "familiar spirits" carry on the subterfuge. This is a Given. Human beings are not spirits. The "spirit returns to God Who gave it", and God is also not subject to the wishes of witches either. To the Hebrew mind, the spirit that returns to God does not descend into Sheol. While God is everywhere, his spirit doesn't mingle with those down in Sheol.

Show me a literal Bible reader, and i will show you a selective literal reader, who is surely in denial, and will not address any Scripture i Quote, imo.

Are you suggesting that I am being selective? I'm simply pointing out some simple facts from scripture which are beyond doubt literal facts.

At least i havent found one yet. Go read my last exchange with marks, if you will; that is a template for how believers deny plain Scripture imo. Note the subject change whenever the elephant in the room is even approached?

Your last exchange with marks in this thread?

 

[shnarkle]

ergo it is possible to consult with familiar spirits, and while i'm not interested in putting too fine a point on this bc i started the same way, what should we call someone who believes that they can go to a certain place and say a certain spell that might change the future? And how is that any different from the little party we make out of salvation/baptism, followed by--not going out in the way of the seventy, of course, an ego-destroying exercise--a celebration at Luby's, an ego-building exercise, followed virtually without fail to a return to one's old life on Monday, bc of course we did all the spell/incantation jazz on Solday right

I'm not sure what your point or points are in all of that. There obviously is no fine point to that post. No doubt it is possible to consult with familiar spirits, but you have taken it upon yourself to interpret a "familiar spirit" to be an actual spirit of Samuel. To summon a familiar spirit is to summon a familiar spirit, not the spirit of anyone who has died as they all return to God. Again, God, in the bible at least; is always thought of as being "up" "on high", "the highest", etc. This spirit comes up from below.

 

[bbyrd009]

i disagree, and would point out that you are disagreeing with Scripture, from eternity to eternity, etc. Aeons are forever on our timescale, but they do end, and new ones begin, as evidenced in Scripture directly too, at least in the original tongue. Meaning that we have passages that invoke "aeons" past that have been scribed out to make our notion of eternity as "forever" more palatable,
What is an eon?

The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon (in American English), originally meant "life", "vital force" or "being", "generation" or "a period of time", though it tended to be translated as "age" in the sense of "ages", "forever", "timeless" or "for eternity". ... A cognate Latin word aevum or aeuum (cf.

all Greek, but in Hebrew this actually becomes more clear i guess

and see, i will get no reply to this, why not? Isnt it obvious? If it is not obvious, then there is a problem, see, a big, mortal, critical problem. You are allowed to define "eternal" how you like, see, and you are free to ignore what the preacher said as you were coming up out of that water, too, if you want.

Really it would be best if yall just keep "witnessing," and gaining new converts, and getting them ritually baptized so they can goto Luby's too, i guess. I started the ezack same way, even believed in a rapture for about ten minutes, til i cracked a Bible that is, thought i was going somewhere special when i died too, all that. But see all our chirren done got ate, yeh?

We're buildin walls and such to keep ppl out, not realizing that we have a couple really plain passages if i read them to you and associated them to western christians today, you would puke if you had any sense. Only not you, of course, thats all for the other guy i guess. Hard to see that if youre paying taxes you are buried in sin up to your neck i guess. You are the person funding KBR black ops to destabilize other nations, for to plunder them, and it is your grandchildren who will have to pay the bill that will come due, that has real assets backing it up. So go talk about love and flowers and jesus and keep paying your taxes, fine

 

[bbyrd009]

It's interesting that you ask if I want to go 'up' to heaven, yet you must admit that this caricature of Samuel comes 'up' from below. How do you reconcile that?

ha arg jesus Samuel came up from the earth, after he had obviously gone down into it, and you believe you will go up to some place called heaven after you have died, and you need me to reconcile something here? How th do you reconcile your position lol

I reconcile it by the fact that "the dead don't know anything" (Eccl. 9:5), and yet the demons (Gr. "damone" meaning "sent from above", and currently living below) know plenty more than most would like to admit.

horse shit, wadr, spirits do not actually "know" anything, you have just accepted the personification of spirits maybe a bit too literally, when get behind me, satan is surely a better pov? And again, wouldnt there be some indication of all this in the Witch of Endor account? When she saw Samuel, she screamed. Now either she saw samuel, or she did not, and Scripture is lying to us, yeh? Which is it?

 

[shnarkle]

fortunately for us Samuel came up from the earth was not presented by either of them yeh? And his body/not his body is a deflection that does not address the issue anyway.

It's certainly in the text:

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring UP unto thee? And he said, Bring me UP Samuel.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ASCENDING OUT OF THE EARTH.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh UP;...15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me UP?

 

[shnarkle]

and see, i will get no reply to this, why not? Isnt it obvious? If it is not obvious, then there is a problem, see, a big, mortal, critical problem. You are allowed to define "eternal" how you like,

Not really. I'm simply pointing out a fact which is that there can be no time before the beginning of time. That's just a simple fact. God creates time so you are the one who is assuming that there is time before the beginning of time which is a contradiction in terms.

Hard to see that if youre paying taxes you are buried in sin up to your neck i guess. You are the person funding KBR black ops to destabilize other nations, for to plunder them, and it is your grandchildren who will have to pay the bill that will come due, that has real assets backing it up. So go talk about love and flowers and jesus and keep paying your taxes, fine

You seem to be assuming quite a lot here dude. I don't pay taxes and haven't paid any taxes in over a decade. No property taxes, no income taxes, etc. I'm not funding any government operations. I'm not paying off the interest on the debt either. At some point in the near future, I may not even be an American citizen anymore.

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not agree that there is not a place called hell. There is.

then Quote it, and bam remain comfortable that you never directly suggested that anyone might be going there, if you like, you can even say you never so much as implied an inference, whatever, but then i gotta ask why anyone would want to join your religion, in that case?

There is no place called "hell," except in English, and you will unerringly be led to foreign gods when you try and establish that place. Give it your best shot and let's see, if you like. Gehenna is real, it is a place on earth, and Tartarus is a Greek god invoked to send satan to today, or whenever you are ready i guess, but neither of these is the "hell" of our understanding, and this can easily be established in about five minutes now. Besides the fact that you will be forced to ignore the copious Scripture that suggests otherwise! You dont like you and your sons will be here with me, oh "literal reader?" Then fine, there is plenty of other Scripture left to address, see, and you already know the ones, the ones i Quote that no one will go near, yeh?

 

[bbyrd009]

It's certainly in the text:

go with that then, but note how you had to cut out the part that makes that all crap, the part i Quoted, see? "When she saw Samuel" now either she saw Samuel, or she did not, and we'll ignore the rest of your English tripe translation that does not even make grammatical sense for now

 

[bbyrd009]

but you have taken it upon yourself to interpret a "familiar spirit" to be an actual spirit of Samuel

When she saw Samuel, she screamed
interpret that how you like bro, but like i said we have plenty other Scripture to consider in this context also, and i'm about done getting cherry-picked and selectively avoided by you this morning, ok? How bout we go over some of the meat that got left on the plate up there, huh?

 

[bbyrd009]

Not really. I'm simply pointing out a fact which is that there can be no time before the beginning of time. That's just a simple fact.

a simple fact lol, how th would you know this "simple fact" that means abs nothing practically speaking, other than that there is no time right now either, which apparently has not even been realized there yet? You posit what even a scientist would openly admit is a theory, see, as if you know, "a simple fact." And really what is the point of this time bs anyway? Its a diversion, away from truth, imo. Now is all there is, and all there will ever be, except for Christian believers and other deluded ppl, Understand I AM or dont, human musings on the nature of time, bah. It is strictly a way to deny understand I AM, and establish Death, More Abundantly

 

[shnarkle]

ha arg jesus Samuel came up from the earth, after he had obviously gone down into it, and you believe you will go up to some place called heaven after you have died,

Strawman argument. I never made this claim. Samuel does not go down into the earth. His body goes down into the earth, and the "spirit returns to God Who gave it". Again, God is not down in the earth. Those spirits who sinned in the days of Noah are down in Tartarus though, but Samuel isn't down there with them either.

and you need me to reconcile something here? How th do you reconcile your position lol
horse shit, wadr,

What does "wadr" mean?

spirits do not actually "know" anything, you have just accepted the personification of spirits maybe a bit too literally, when get behind me, satan is surely a better pov?

Again, you seem to be making my points for me here. Personifying spirits doesn't mean spirits are literally being personified. It's figurative, and is simply doing exactly what the witch of Endor is doing, which is to personify the dead. When Peter is personified as Satan this is no different than Christ's own ego being personified as Satan during his temptations.

And again, wouldnt there be some indication of all this in the Witch of Endor account? When she saw Samuel, she screamed. Now either she saw samuel, or she did not, and Scripture is lying to us, yeh? Which is it?

Try to remember the context here. Saul is consulting a witch who is by definition, summoning 'familiar spirits' up from the earth, Sheol. By definition, she sees familiar spirits, correct??? You seem to feel that you're making a point here, but what it is, and how you think this supports your position is yet to be seen by me or even the witch or Endor.

The witch of Endor saw a familiar spirit. That's what witches do. They summon familiar spirits. You're the one who is now assuming that familiar spirits are actually the spirits of the dead. They're not. They're familiar spirits. Saul doesn't see anything, but "perceives" that Samuel is there because of the histrionics of the witch; not because Samuel is actually there. A familiar spirit is actually there.

familiar
[fəˈmilyər]
NOUN
familiar spirits (plural noun)

1. a demon supposedly attending and obeying a witch, often said to assume the form of an animal.
   "her familiars were her two little griffons that nested in her skirts"

 

[bbyrd009]

You seem to be assuming quite a lot here dude

you are taking a general statement personally, i did not mean you personally, and fwiw i dont believe you anyway, talk is cheap. But if so on the afterstuff up there, good for you. personally. irrelevant to me and the point, but good for you

 

[shnarkle]

a simple fact lol, how th would you know this "simple fact" that means abs nothing practically speaking, other than that there is no time right now either, which apparently has not even been realized there yet? You posit what even a scientist would openly admit is a theory, see, as if you know, "a simple fact." And really what is the point of this time bs anyway? Its a diversion, away from truth, imo. Now is all there is, and all there will ever be, except for Christian believers and other deluded ppl, Understand I AM or dont, human musings on the nature of time, bah. It is strictly a way to deny understand I AM, and establish Death, More Abundantly

I'm not claiming time as a fact. I'm pointing out that the word "time" is a term which indicates:

time
[tīm]
hour · o'clock

• a moment or definite portion of time allotted, used, or suitable for a purpose.
  "the scheduled departure time" · 
  moment · point · 
  occasion · hour · minute · second · instant · juncture · stage · phase
• (a time)
  an indefinite period.
  "traveling always distorts one's feelings for a time"
  synonyms:
  while · spell · stretch · stint · 
  span · season · interval · period · period of time · length of time · duration · run · space · phase · stage · term · patch
• (times)
  a more or less definite portion of time in history or characterized by particular events or circumstances.

The fact is that the bible refers to creation having a "beginning", and you are assuming that time is eternal, or equivalent to eternity. The problem here is that if eternity has a beginning then you've just contradicted yourself AGAIN. How does time begin when time is already being employed eternally?

 

[bbyrd009]

What does "wadr" mean?

thats irrelevant too, ask google, and bam go with that then ok, no objections here. Have a good day, gotta run. Progress = -1 once again here imo.

I never made this claim

yes, ok, ty, that is nowhere near your beliefs, right, which is why we been dancing around it for four days now lol, and i cant get you to make any claims except about time and paying taxes? Do you believe you will go up to heaven after you have died or no bro? Prolly better to just keep that a secret i guess huh

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not claiming time as a fact. I'm pointing out that the word "time" is a term which indicates:

time
[tīm]
hour · o'clock

• a moment or definite portion of time allotted, used, or suitable for a purpose.
  "the scheduled departure time" · 
  moment · point · 
  occasion · hour · minute · second · instant · juncture · stage · phase
• (a time)
  an indefinite period.
  "traveling always distorts one's feelings for a time"
  synonyms:
  while · spell · stretch · stint · 
  span · season · interval · period · period of time · length of time · duration · run · space · phase · stage · term · patch
• (times)
  a more or less definite portion of time in history or characterized by particular events or circumstances.

The fact is that the bible refers to creation having a "beginning", and you are assuming that time is eternal, or equivalent to eternity. The problem here is that if eternity has a beginning then you've just contradicted yourself AGAIN. How does time begin when time is already being employed eternally?

i'm just not interested bro, no offense. If there is a point then bam make it, and lets compare it to Scripture imo

 

[shnarkle]

you are taking a general statement personally, i did not mean you personally, and fwiw i dont believe you anyway, talk is cheap. But if so on the afterstuff up there, good for you. personally. irrelevant to me and the point, but good for you

Sure it's irrelevant, but then why bring it up at all? I live in a state where they have what is known as a homestead exemption which allows anyone living in a home over six months of the year to claim the first $50k for free. Thus if the home you live in is assessed at less than $50k, you pay NOTHING.

There was a time when I used to work, but I also put most of that money to work for me. That money is still working for me, and coincidently for God as well. God has provided quite abundantly for me so I don't have to depend upon Mammon anymore. I can now watch as the economy collapses from the sidelines as I have no need to buy or sell anything anymore.

 

[shnarkle]

thats irrelevant too, ask google, and bam go with that then ok, no objections here. Have a good day, gotta run. Progress = -1 once again here imo.

yes, ok, ty, that is nowhere near your beliefs, right, which is why we been dancing around it for four days now lol, and i cant get you to make any claims except about time and paying taxes? Do you believe you will go up to heaven after you have died or no bro? Prolly better to just keep that a secret i guess huh

No, I don't believe I will go up to heaven when my body dies. The kingdom is right here, right now in our midst, and people are rushing into it with more force and determination than the LGBTQ+ community can imagine. Given that it really doesn't seem to have much of anything to do with this thread, perhaps you might want to stop dancing and make a point.

 

[shnarkle]

i'm just not interested bro, no offense. If there is a point then bam make it, and lets compare it to Scripture imo

I made my point in the OP. You're the one who is presenting one vague and ambiguous post after another, not me.