What would you do different?

[bbyrd009]

with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind.

i dunno, God has repented before right

 

[shnarkle]

The type of Christian who best reflects Christ, because the more we reflect Christ, the more we prove the dysfunction of Satan's rebellion.
Or I should say, because without Him we can do nothing, the more God Himself is vindicated in the way He has dealt with the rebellion.

Vindicated is from the word "vindictive" and God is not out for revenge. God doesn't need to be vindicated as God cannot be harmed. One can't trespass against God. It is only Satan who seeks vindication.

The biblical authors put it much more poetically by saying "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord" which is a polite way of saying we're not supposed to seek vindication. We will be vindicated, if that's what we feel we need. I think it is more a matter of being vindicated in the eyes of those who trespassed against us. Satan will see God vindicated rather than himself; poetic justice.

 

[bbyrd009]

So Paul has presented a hypothetical situation which I've been pondering for quite some time. I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction, what would they do differently, if anything? Why?

It's a question most Christians simply refuse to answer. They will protest that God would never do something like this. Perhaps, but then that's quite simply not the point. The point is that Paul has presented this scenario for us to ponder, and I'm simply asking that YOU ponder it as well with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind. Paul points out that we needn't question whether or not God is just in doing any of this. Why? Because for Paul and his argument, it's quite simply a Given.

He also plays devil's advocate by asking if one is only carrying out God's will, why would they be to blame? In other words, if one is created to live a sinful life anyways, why is that his fault? Paul's response? Shut up. In other words, Paul is not presenting an argument to justify sin. Most people will deny Paul is even making this argument, but there's really no reason for Paul to point out that God is just in the first place if he weren't making the argument that God predestines people for glory, and the rest aren't.

If it were left up to our own free "will and effort" (vs. 16), then Paul wouldn't need to point out God's righteous judgment, nor the fact that it is by God's promise that his will is acccomplished. God insures his plans are carried out, not us.

So, knowing you're damned to eternal damnation, would you continue to troll poeple on the internet? Would you continue to go to church knowing you're destined for hell? Would you continue to read the bible, or teach your children to study the bible, knowing full well that God's righteous judgment and wrath is upon you?

i wonder if taking a side in this "predestination" argument--where no sides are really even outlined, and the term is mostly used as self-justification or condemnation of others, right?--is not a way to avoid "change your mind," not saying you are doing this necessarily though.

your Qs i couldnt answer, sorry, dunno too many believers who read their Bibles anyway. let alone teach their kids to, cant "go to" church imo, and etc. But even accepting all of that, or excepting it, whatever, arent we told that good fruit does not come from bad trees, raise a child up in the way he should go and he will not depart from it, etc?

 

[shnarkle]

i dunno, God has repented before right

Yep and he provides a lamb to cover his sin too. God takes responsibility for his mistakes, and so too must we.

Again, my statement is within the hypothetical situation presented by Paul.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yep and he provides a lamb to cover his sin too. God takes responsibility for his mistakes, and so too must we.

Again, my statement is within the hypothetical situation presented by Paul.

ok

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction,

He knew. His vessel “a body prepared” was fitted for destruction. John 12:5-7 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? [6] This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. [7] Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

How many times did He tell them the destruction that was coming. ...John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Follow Him, knowing the vessel fitted for destruction. Luke 9:23-24
[23] And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Vessels fitted for destruction...are all because all have sinned and come short. do you carry with you and know every day as Paul said ...Saul was slain....destroyed. But God had mercy. Again all are vessels fitted for destruction and should not those who say they hear His voice saying “follow Me” already know it in not clinging to what fades or passes away. Do the children walk every day in MERCY knowing what was once their life and peace and joy and affections and lust are fitted for the crucifix of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ and ....knowing Him who is faithful and merciful will do what He said He will do?

John 2:19-22
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. [20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? [21] But he spake of the temple of his body. [22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

When he had risen from destruction...his disciples remembered what He said and believed the Word.

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

John 12:26-27
[26] If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. [27] Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Do not the children know the vessel fitted for destruction in following Him, knowing ...He lives.

John 21:18-19
[18] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: BUT when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. [19] This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

^you girded yourself...and walked where thou would...
Becomes another shall gird thee ....and carry thee where you would not.
The “another shall gird thee and carry you where you would not... is HIM that carries.

Taking the children where they cannot go without God. “Signifying by what death he should glorify God.”

 

[bbyrd009]

Vessels fitted for destruction...are all because all have sinned and come short.

hmm. Jesus sinned and came short?

When he had risen from destruction...his disciples remembered what He said and believed the Word.

and the Scripture too huh?

 

[shnarkle]

i wonder if taking a side in this "predestination" argument--where no sides are really even outlined, and the term is mostly used as self-justification or condemnation of others, right?--is not a way to avoid "change your mind," not saying you are doing this necessarily though.

your Qs i couldnt answer, sorry, dunno too many believers who read their Bibles anyway. let alone teach their kids to, cant "go to" church imo, and etc. But even accepting all of that, or excepting it, whatever, arent we told that good fruit does not come from bad trees, raise a child up in the way he should go and he will not depart from it, etc?

I think you're referring to the point Paul makes when he plays devil's advocate by claiming, why am I to blame when I am only carrying out God's will? Some view this as a defense from those who would justify their sinful ways. I don't think that's what Paul is suggesting here. i think his response is more than enough reason to suggest he's pointing out that whatever God does, his righteousness is a Given. It is a Given that God is just. Even with everything Paul has said pointing out that whatever Esau or Pharaoh did, God's will was already predetermined, and that "will and effort" are useless, people still have to come up with some explanation that our free will and effort are the deciding factor in our destiny. This explanation makes Paul's explanation pointless. He doesn't need to point out that God is just to begin with if that's the case.

The problem is that we can't all see that the fruit produced is bad. Jesus gets down to the root of the problem by pointing out that the fruit must be systemically produced from within rather than just produced because it should be.

In other words, one can train their children up to do the right thing, and they can continue to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, but this alone isn't enough to grant them salvation. It simply points the way to salvation. They're still doing the right thing because they should rather than the love of Christ overflowing from their hearts. Granted, this is better than doing evil, but it still isn't enough.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

hmm. Jesus sinned and came short?

Very good point. Might need to reconsider the “all”. Thank you.

 

[shnarkle]

He knew. His vessel “a body prepared” was fitted for destruction. John 12:5-7 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? [6] This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. [7] Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

How many times did He tell them the destruction that was coming. ...John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Follow Him, knowing the vessel fitted for destruction. Luke 9:23-24
[23] And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Vessels fitted for destruction...are all because all have sinned and come short. do you carry with you and know every day as Paul said ...Saul was slain....destroyed. But God had mercy. Again all are vessels fitted for destruction and should not those who say they hear His voice saying “follow Me” already know it in not clinging to what fades or passes away. Do the children walk every day in MERCY knowing what was once their life and peace and joy and affections and lust are fitted for the crucifix of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ and ....knowing Him who is faithful and merciful will do what He said He will do?

John 2:19-22
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. [20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? [21] But he spake of the temple of his body. [22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

When he had risen from destruction...his disciples remembered what He said and believed the Word.

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

John 12:26-27
[26] If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. [27] Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Do not the children know the vessel fitted for destruction in following Him, knowing ...He lives.

John 21:18-19
[18] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: BUT when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. [19] This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

^you girded yourself...and walked where thou would...
Becomes another shall gird thee ....and carry thee where you would not.
The “another shall gird thee and carry you where you would not... is HIM that carries.

Taking the children where they cannot go without God. “Signifying by what death he should glorify God.”

Great response to this question. You nailed it. Thank you.

 

[bbyrd009]

have to come up with some explanation that our free will and effort are the deciding factor in our destiny.

well, imo changing one's mind and picking up their own crosses and following are free will efforts called "works," and they are the only judgement anyone will suffer i guess

This explanation makes Paul's explanation pointless. He doesn't need to point out that God is just to begin with if that's the case.

perhaps not to you, us, but ppl mostly worshipped Zeus then, a capricious and vengeful god? And of course we mostly accept that Jesus died for our sins to appease this same god, right? So maybe some pointing out that God is always just is in order there after all, dunno

 

[brakelite]

with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind.

KJV Numbers 14
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
In the margin of the KJV the phrase in bold above may be read as altering of my purpose.
I only have my phone so can't access other versions... Perhaps you can check that out?

 

[bbyrd009]

In other words, one can train their children up to do the right thing, and they can continue to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, but this alone isn't enough to grant them salvation

that depends upon your definition of salvation i guess, what does "salvation" mean iyo.
"and when they are old they will not depart from it" has been negated there imo, and yes, it is enough to grant them salvation according to Scripture imo.
Go, and do likewise
all must appear before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged for their works done while in the body, whether for evil or for good

 

[shnarkle]

KJV Numbers 14
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
In the margin of the KJV the phrase in bold above may be read as altering of my purpose.
I only have my phone so can't access other versions... Perhaps you can check that out?

Thanks. Not sure what your point is in posting this though.

 

[shnarkle]

that depends upon your definition of salvation i guess, what does "salvation" mean iyo

To be saved from sin, and its consequences, rescued and given eternal life which is meaningless if it is only seen in superficial deeds.

 

[shnarkle]

well, imo changing one's mind and picking up their own crosses and following are free will efforts called "works," and they are the only judgement anyone will suffer i guess

perhaps not to you, us, but ppl mostly worshipped Zeus then, a capricious and vengeful god? And of course we mostly accept that Jesus died for our sins to appease this same god, right? So maybe some pointing out that God is always just is in order there after all, dunno

If Paul had begun his argument, or even at any time during his argument, pointed out that we're all responsible for our own actions, he wouldn't have bothered to point out that God is just because he would simply be pointing out that God judges us by our good deeds. He weighs us in the balance and if our good deeds outweigh the bad, we go to heaven. This is the way the world sees it, but not Paul. Paul sees that we need to be rescued, and we need to be rescued because we're incapable of even getting the balance to even out for a trip to limbo.

It is soley due to God's mercy that anyone can be saved. God chooses whomsoever he pleases for his own purposes, and those purposes are just. That's a Given.

I think the problem is that we tend to view what God does from a doctrinal point of view rather than from the reality. For example, we say that God doesn't see our sin, he only sees the righteousness of Christ. We acknowledge this as a tenet of our belief, but the reality is that God only sees the righteousness of Christ because that's the reality. There really is just the righteousness of Christ. None of this other nonsense that we think we see really exists at all. It's all just in our minds.

 

[bbyrd009]

and given eternal life

ok, and this eternity you invoke, how long does that last, what is the def of Eternity iyo, bc i am already hearing "forever" wadr. Do you believe you might go up to heaven after you have died, to become an immortal?

 

[shnarkle]

ok, and this eternity you invoke, how long does that last, what is the def of Eternity iyo, bc i am already hearing "forever" wadr

Eternity has nothing to do with time. Time is just something we need in order to get stuff done. There is nothing to do in eternity. It's all done in Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

Eternity has nothing to do with time. Time is just something we need in order to get stuff done. There is nothing to do in eternity. It's all done in Christ.

i beg to disagree, an eternity is mos def a period of time, from eternity to eternity, etc, from aeon, ...i could go dig it up if you like

 

[shnarkle]

i beg to disagree, an eternity is mos def a period of time, from eternity to eternity, etc, from aeon, ...i could go dig it up if you like

You're speaking of eternity in terms of time. Time has a beginning and an end, eternity has no beginning or end. It' just a way of speaking about what we can't articulate to begin with.