What would you do different?

[bbyrd009]

You're speaking of eternity in terms of time. Time has a beginning and an end, eternity has no beginning or end. It' just a way of speaking about what we can't articulate to begin with.

i disagree, and would point out that you are disagreeing with Scripture, from eternity to eternity, etc. Aeons are forever on our timescale, but they do end, and new ones begin, as evidenced in Scripture directly too, at least in the original tongue. Meaning that we have passages that invoke "aeons" past that have been scribed out to make our notion of eternity as "forever" more palatable,
What is an eon?

The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon (in American English), originally meant "life", "vital force" or "being", "generation" or "a period of time", though it tended to be translated as "age" in the sense of "ages", "forever", "timeless" or "for eternity". ... A cognate Latin word aevum or aeuum (cf.

all Greek, but in Hebrew this actually becomes more clear i guess

 

[shnarkle]

QUOTE="bbyrd009, post: 604659, member: 7326"
Do you believe you might go up to heaven after you have died, to become an immortal?

No. The body dies. The body is destined for destruction, but the body is not me, nor is it who I am. Who I am is eternal. In other words, there is only Christ, and this is what the gospel narratives as well as Paul are pointing out when they say things like just as the father is in the son, and the son in the father, so too may they be in Christ and Christ in them etc. Paul has no identity except in Christ. "not me, but Christ in me". "Christ in you, your onl hope of salvation". When we see that this separate identity we've created is nothing but a fabrication of our own minds, there is nothing left except Christ.

Christ is not engaging in hyperbole when he says that as long as we do it to the least of our brethren, we do it to him. He's pointing to this existential fact of reality. This can only be realized through self sacrifice. That fabricated identity must be sacrificed in order to live the resurrected life. Then there is no "other"; just Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

but the body is not me, nor is it who I am.

you and your sons will be here with me
Samuel came up from the earth

but ty anyway, some good points in there too imo

 

[shnarkle]

i disagree, and would point out that you are disagreeing with Scripture, from eternity to eternity, etc. Aeons are forever on our timescale, but they do end, and new ones begin, as evidenced in Scripture directly too, at least in the original tongue. Meaning that we have passages that invoke "aeons" past that have been scribed out to make our notion of eternity as "forever" more palatable,
What is an eon?

The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon (in American English), originally meant "life", "vital force" or "being", "generation" or "a period of time", though it tended to be translated as "age" in the sense of "ages", "forever", "timeless" or "for eternity". ... A cognate Latin word aevum or aeuum (cf.

all Greek, but in Hebrew this actually becomes more clear i guess

Making it more palatable to the mind doesn't mean that's how it really tastes. You can't taste with the mind. Eternity can't be grasped by the mind so the bible does the next best thing. That doesn't mean that eternity has a beginning or an end. There is no "before", or "after" in eternity. There is no "before" or "after" before or after the beginning or end of time either. That's just a logical self evident fact. There can be no time before the beginning of time, or time after the end of time.

 

[shnarkle]

you and your sons will be here with me
Samuel came up from the earth

but ty anyway, some good points in there too imo

If Samuel has a body, then Samuel is not his body. If Samuel is the body, then it isn't his body.

 

[bbyrd009]

Making it more palatable to the mind doesn't mean that's how it really tastes. You can't taste with the mind. Eternity can't be grasped by the mind so the bible does the next best thing. That doesn't mean that eternity has a beginning or an end. There is no "before", or "after" in eternity. There is no "before" or "after" before or after the beginning or end of time either. That's just a logical self evident fact. There can be no time before the beginning of time, or time after the end of time.

ah, so.
But i guess for humans that is all irrelevant anyway, so i'm not sure the point there wadr, except maybe an end-around There is only One Immortal

If Samuel has a body, then Samuel is not his body. If Samuel is the body, then it isn't his body.

ah, very wise
However Samuel was no longer in the body at the time that he came up from the earth, so that also seems to be irrelevant, sorry

 

[shnarkle]

ah, so.
But i guess for humans that is all irrelevant anyway, so i'm not sure the point there wadr, except maybe an end-around There is only One Immortal

ah, very wise
However Samuel was no longer in the body at the time that he came up from the earth, so that also seems to be irrelevant, sorry

Wouldn't that seem to indicate that Samuel is not his body? The bible indicates one shouldn't consult familiar spirits to begin with, perhaps because it leads immediately to deception. The story presents a witch, and a man who has already lost his mind. Chances are high that they're not likely to be seeing the world as it really is.

 

[amadeus]

Yep and he provides a lamb to cover his sin too. God takes responsibility for his mistakes, and so too must we.

Do you really believe God has made any mistakes at all?

 

[bbyrd009]

Wouldn't that seem to indicate that Samuel is not his body? The bible indicates one shouldn't consult familiar spirits to begin with, perhaps because it leads immediately to deception. The story presents a witch, and a man who has already lost his mind. Chances are high that they're not likely to be seeing the world as it really is.

ok, ty

 

[bbyrd009]

fortunately for us Samuel came up from the earth was not presented by either of them yeh? And his body/not his body is a deflection that does not address the issue anyway.

 

[shnarkle]

fortunately for us Samuel came up from the earth was not presented by either of them yeh?

How do you figure that? Saul has engaged the services of a witch to do exactly that.

And his body/not his body is a deflection that does not address the issue anyway.

Again, I'm not sure I follow your claim here. Samuel is not in his physical body. This may not even be Samuel. Chances are it's not Samuel, but a familiar spirit instead.

To think that a witch would have power over the saints of God doesn't make much sense to me. Witches summon demons, not God's saints.

 

[bbyrd009]

How do you figure that? Saul has engaged the services of a witch to do exactly that.

you can only be saying that the Bible is deliberately lying by pursuing this path, but if it helps any most believers are extremely anxious hoping your pov is the correct one here. As for me, the Bible says "when she saw Samuel," not "when she thought she saw samuel" nor " when she said she saw samuel," see, none of the literary devices that would indicate subterfuge are going on in the passage, in fact i am not the first to remark that this passage is not written in the naive dialectic, iow there is no contrasting passage elsewhere, nothing to ve realized later, either, like in "here a little there a little" or "we will rebuild higher, stronger" etc.

Also, the pertinent concept here--which we will of course not be getting anywhere near today i guess, we'll stay bogged down in this irrelevant bs for like what the next two days at least, right--is witnessed in many other locations in Scripture, while the generally accepted Christian (mithraist) belief must be extracted from, ha, wait for it, visions.

So we could argue the validity of, basically, Scripture here/now for the rest of the day i guess, but
all go to the same place
no one knows where they go when they die
no one has ever gone up to heaven
there is only One Immortal
see, these are not going anywhere, and i'm not even trying hard,
I came that you might have life, more abundantly
etc etc.

so if you want to suggest that wisdom is somehow hidden from the wise here i am all ears, ok, but wadr i dont think you will be doing that.

Samuel is not in his physical body. This may not even be Samuel. Chances are it's not Samuel, but a familiar spirit instead.

To think that a witch would have power over the saints of God doesn't make much sense to me. Witches summon demons, not God's saints.

so then Scripture is lying there maybe, fine. Best of luck negating all of the witnesses, too. Have a nice evening.

 

[shnarkle]

you can only be saying that the Bible is deliberately lying by pursuing this path, but if it helps any most believers are extremely anxious hoping your pov is the correct one here. As for me, the Bible says "when she saw Samuel," not "when she thought she saw samuel" nor " when she said she saw samuel," see, none of the literary devices that would indicate subterfuge are going on in the passage, in fact i am not the first to remark that this passage is not written in the naive dialectic, iow there is no contrasting passage elsewhere, nothing to ve realized later, either, like in "here a little there a little" or "we will rebuild higher, stronger" etc.

Also, the pertinent concept here--which we will of course not be getting anywhere near today i guess, we'll stay bogged down in this irrelevant bs for like what the next two days at least, right--is witnessed in many other locations in Scripture, while the generally accepted Christian (mithraist) belief must be extracted from, ha, wait for it, visions.

So we could argue the validity of, basically, Scripture here/now for the rest of the day i guess, but
all go to the same place
no one knows where they go when they die
no one has ever gone up to heaven
there is only One Immortal
see, these are not going anywhere, and i'm not even trying hard,
I came that you might have life, more abundantly
etc etc.

so if you want to suggest that wisdom is somehow hidden from the wise here i am all ears, ok, but wadr i dont think you will be doing that.
so then Scripture is lying there maybe, fine. Best of luck negating all of the witnesses, too. Have a nice evening.

It has to do with perspective. When David numbers Israel, the book of Kings portrays it as God compelling David, but Chronicles says it was the devil who compelled him. There's the way God sees it, and there's the way we see it. We see something similar in the gospel narratives. Skeptics will claim that they're contradicting each other, but they're really giving us different perspectives to give us a better picture of what's going on.

God's kingdom doesn't suffer a witch to live, and condemns consulting with familiar spirits. Again, one must ask how or why would God allow a witch to summon someone of Samuel's stature. Would she have had this power over him while he was alive in the flesh? Wouldn't he have had her stoned to death on the spot? Now she has control over Samuel? Is the flesh stronger than the spirit at resisting the evil ways of witches? Was Samuel damned? Did I miss something about Samuel's story?

 

[brakelite]

Vindicated is from the word "vindictive" and God is not out for revenge. God doesn't need to be vindicated as God cannot be harmed. One can't trespass against God. It is only Satan who seeks vindication.

The biblical authors put it much more poetically by saying "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord" which is a polite way of saying we're not supposed to seek vindication. We will be vindicated, if that's what we feel we need. I think it is more a matter of being vindicated in the eyes of those who trespassed against us. Satan will see God vindicated rather than himself; poetic justice.

No, that is incorrect. To be vindicated is to be cleared of blame or suspicion.
Who do you think this refers to....?
KJV Romans 3
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Who is being judged and justified in this verse?

KJV Ezekiel 36
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

God's name... His character... Is vindicated... Sanctified.... In the sight of the world as we live the mind of Christ and truly become His body... Ambassadors... Witnesses... Representatives in the world. God's vindication is more important than our salvation. Our salvation is the icing on the cake.

KJV Ezekiel 36
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

 

[shnarkle]

No, that is incorrect. To be vindicated is to be cleared of blame or suspicion.
Who do you think this refers to....?
KJV Romans 3
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Who is being judged and justified in this verse?

That's a bad translation. God is just, and the just judge. David is pointing out that fact in that psalm. Paul isn't suggesting that his statements allow God to be just or true. It's a Given that we're all liars.

KJV Ezekiel 36
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

God's name... His character... Is vindicated... Sanctified.... In the sight of the world as we live the mind of Christ and truly become His body... Ambassadors... Witnesses... Representatives in the world. God's vindication is more important than our salvation. Our salvation is the icing on the cake.

KJV Ezekiel 36
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Note that at no time is God profaned. It is his name "among the heathens" or "before your eyes". This is simply pointing out that in our sinful state we must see God's name vindicated, but God doesn't need to be vindicated or justified. God is the one who does the justifying and sanctifying, but he doesn't sanctify himself due to the fact that he was never defiled or profaned to begin with.

God will justify you or vindicate you before your enemies, but God will never be vindicated himself as God cannot be trespassed against. No one can come anywhere near God's holiness without being obliterated. Those who do, are the ones who must be sanctified.

 

[bbyrd009]

Again, one must ask how or why would God allow a witch to summon someone of Samuel's stature.

so you say, but i'm sure elsewhere you would just as vehemently be arguing for a literal interp there? And are you going to address the supporting vv, or you wanna run a denial test here, or what shnark, bc wadr i am not interested in playing ringaroundtherosie with you ok. Admit that you hope to go up to heaven after you have died, or do not, idc

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think we all hope to be with God after we die. But I know from experience that to say I have this hope makes you say I am therefore condemning others to hell, which I have never understood...

 

[bbyrd009]

God's kingdom doesn't suffer a witch to live, and condemns consulting with familiar spirits.

ergo it is possible to consult with familiar spirits, and while i'm not interested in putting too fine a point on this bc i started the same way, what should we call someone who believes that they can go to a certain place and say a certain spell that might change the future? And how is that any different from the little party we make out of salvation/baptism, followed by--not going out in the way of the seventy, of course, an ego-destroying exercise--a celebration at Luby's, an ego-building exercise, followed virtually without fail to a return to one's old life on Monday, bc of course we did all the spell/incantation jazz on Solday right

 

[bbyrd009]

I think we all hope to be with God after we die. But I know from experience that to say I have this hope makes you say I am therefore condemning others to hell, which I have never understood...

in order for you to go up to heaven (only after you have died of course) you must first accept that there is a place called hell in the "afterlife" that those who have not joined your coven and said the magic incantation will not have access to, yes? I know you would not put it that way, but what did you go out into the wilderness to see, sbg?

what do you say to ppl whom you "witness" to about your perspective of say "Jesus" or why they should become a Christian? Do we not dangle the fear of hell in some afterlife that we cannot even Quote from Scripture, and in fact can only Quote the opposite? All go to the same place, no one knows where they go when they die, you and your sons will be here with me. Now, Quote me where you are going to heaven after you have died, or where anyone else is going to hell, one single place, and let's look at it!

we all hope to be with God after we die, but what happened to life, more abundantly see? If you hope to be with God only after you have died, then how motivated would you be to be in some place called heaven that is within you right now, return to Me and I will return to you? Understand I AM. The only way the belief can even be forwarded is mass hallucination, see, bc you sure cant demonstrate it from Scripture on the whole, this pov can only be foisted upon the ignorant and unwary, who do not know Scripture, and do not want to know, seems to me anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

Did I miss something about Samuel's story?

did the Scriptures tell us that the Witch of Endor saw Samuel, or not?
Wouldnt that have been the pplace to indicate any subterfuge going on, a la "she said she saw samuel" or something similar? Show me a literal Bible reader, and i will show you a selective literal reader, who is surely in denial, and will not address any Scripture i Quote, imo. At least i havent found one yet. Go read my last exchange with marks, if you will; that is a template for how believers deny plain Scripture imo. Note the subject change whenever the elephant in the room is even approached?