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Featured What would you do different?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by shnarkle, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    So Paul has presented a hypothetical situation which I've been pondering for quite some time. I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction, what would they do differently, if anything? Why?

    It's a question most Christians simply refuse to answer. They will protest that God would never do something like this. Perhaps, but then that's quite simply not the point. The point is that Paul has presented this scenario for us to ponder, and I'm simply asking that YOU ponder it as well with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind. Paul points out that we needn't question whether or not God is just in doing any of this. Why? Because for Paul and his argument, it's quite simply a Given.

    He also plays devil's advocate by asking if one is only carrying out God's will, why would they be to blame? In other words, if one is created to live a sinful life anyways, why is that his fault? Paul's response? Shut up. In other words, Paul is not presenting an argument to justify sin. Most people will deny Paul is even making this argument, but there's really no reason for Paul to point out that God is just in the first place if he weren't making the argument that God predestines people for glory, and the rest aren't.

    If it were left up to our own free "will and effort" (vs. 16), then Paul wouldn't need to point out God's righteous judgment, nor the fact that it is by God's promise that his will is acccomplished. God insures his plans are carried out, not us.

    So, knowing you're damned to eternal damnation, would you continue to troll poeple on the internet? Would you continue to go to church knowing you're destined for hell? Would you continue to read the bible, or teach your children to study the bible, knowing full well that God's righteous judgment and wrath is upon you?
     
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  2. Faither

    Faither Member

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    You remind me of the 8 year old boy who picks on the little girl at the school yard. He puts on a good front like he doesn't like her, when he secretly does.

    When the Father draws us to Christ, it manifests itself as pondering about things relating to Him alot. Stop kicking against the bricks and start asking Him the questions.
     
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  3. Not me

    Not me Well-Known Member

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    These scriptures have perplexed me also. I can not get a grip on the purpose and understanding of them.

    But I take it as a maxim that any interpretation of anything that puts any evil into God is a wrong interpretation of that thing.

    For either God is good, or He is not.
    Either God is love, or He is not.

    He can’t be both good and evil just like He can’t be love and hate.

    So there are scriptures I just keep before Him and wait for some Divine understanding. For my human understanding is so very lacking and as scriptures says incapable of understanding Divine truths without His light.

    So I think you are in good company for I bet these scriptures have perplexed many through the ages.

    So to Him we go and ask for wisdom.

    Blessings, Not me
     
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  4. Deborah_

    Deborah_ Well-Known Member

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    The only people who "know" that they are condemned to eternal damnation are the people who don't care.
     
  5. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Your comparison of 'good and evil' with 'love and hate' is not correct. Can an evil man love his family? Of course he can. Does that make him good? No.

    Can a good man hate one who comes to destroy his family and in turn he kills this one instead. Is he evil for hating and killing the man. Of course not.

    God is a God of love. This doesn't mean He cannot hate. It means He must hate that which is seeking to destroy that which He loves. And so He does. It means He hates those He knows, and He knows, who are not of Him but are of the evil one. So He can say, (Rom. 9:13), "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

    You are correct in believing God can only be good. He is not and can never be evil. What you need to then do is not sit in judgement of God of what He does as to whether or not He is good or evil. God is good period. If He does something you think is bad or evil, then you are wrong. If God did it, it is good. If God saves 3,000 it is good. But if he slays 3,000 it is also good.

    You see. God doesn't do good. The good is what He does. No matter what it is.

    The testimony of Scripture in (Rom. 9:8-24) is true of God just like it plainly states. You can certainly learn more about them in your Bible study. But don't discard them as not saying what they are saying.

    The sooner believers learn to believe the Bible and not their own understanding, the sooner they will come to a full picture of God and Christ.

    Stranger
     
  6. Not me

    Not me Well-Known Member

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    “For either God is good, or He is not.
    Either God is love, or He is not.

    He can’t be both good and evil just like He can’t be love and hate.”

    For the optimal thought here is God “being” what He is by Nature.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If you wish to believe God can “be” both good and evil. That He can “be” both love and hate you are free to do so.

    But;

    “In God” there is only good only love. No evil or hate.

    For if hate is in the Divine Nature, hate must be everywhere, as universal as His love. For all the qualities of God are in a infinite state can never become less can never become more. For as a perfect Being He changes not. So all He is He is forever. God is a perfect Being therefore all of God’s qualities are in a perfect state., If there is hate in the Divine Nature it to must be in a perfect state of infinite hatred. Which would preclude God being a God of love.
    For He can’t be both a God of love and a God of hatred, He is one or the other.

    Scripture says; God is love.

    Not me

    Ps, to take someone’s words out of context to build a argument around them to prove them wrong and you right, is not
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  7. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Hate isn't evil. And hate is not a contradiction to a loving God. Selfishness, now that would be a contradiction to the nature and character of God. But hate, hate can only be sinful if it were either selfish or directed unjustly. In other words, pretty much what stranger said.
     
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  8. Not me

    Not me Well-Known Member

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    Only God’s Nature is being discussed, what He is by Nature. What He is in Himself. God is love and only love.

    Not me
     
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  9. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    But @shnarkle , if I were already studying my Bible... Teaching my kids the ways of righteousness... Obeying the commandments... Hating sin and walking according to the dictates of a sanctified conscience, there is no way on God's green earth that I could be doing any of that except by the Spirit of God... Because only in Him do I live and move and have being... For without Him I am nothing. And I'm not of the Calvin persuasion.
     
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  10. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Okay, so maybe edit my post and replace 'only sinful' with ungodlike.
     
  11. Not me

    Not me Well-Known Member

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    Why?

    Let us just love God and each other. And draw closer to the One who has called us onto Himself.

    Blessings, Not me
     
  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    God has ordained that ..let's say ...half or so of all believers will be cut off. Of course people won't accept that...as if we really had a choice to veto God's decisions.

    We can cry out NO all we want but God will do as He sees fit. There will be weeping and a lot of anger at God's judgments. It is written so.

    So what can we do about it? Well we can make our own calling and election surer by humility and the fear of the lord.

    If God needs to find vessels of dishonour will He go among them that are humble or they who are smug and proud and think nothing bad could ever befall them?

    I mean, where is there wisdom these days?
     
  13. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    That's fine. But it doesn't offer an answer to the OP. Or explain why one may not agree with the hypothesis.
     
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  14. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Let us just take a happy pill...and become drunk on "peace and safety"!??

    Why be fake? God sees all. Why not humble yourself to escape the judgment of they who make Christianity into a self-serving religion of smugness?

    Why not turn to wisdom and the fear of the Lord? Perhaps we may yet be counted as they who are not relegated to be vessels of shame and dishonour. Let the Lord pass over us who take heed and tremble at His word.

    "Make up your mind that God is an infinite Sovereign, and has a right to do as He pleases with His own."
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  15. Not me

    Not me Well-Known Member

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    But we I thought were addressing and discussing my post?

    Anyways, blessings all my best in Christ, Not me
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  16. Not me

    Not me Well-Known Member

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    Anyways, all my best in Christ, Not me
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  17. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    I plainly told you that God is good period. So, why do you claim I say God can be good or evil?

    You say God cannot hate. But, Scripture says otherwise. You reject it because it isn't the picture of God you want. In other words you are creating a god in your image. One who measures up to what you believe God should be like. If something in Scripture doesn't fit your image of God, you jettison it. May as well write your own Bible.

    Stranger
     
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  18. Not me

    Not me Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry the subject was what God is by Nature. That was what was put forth in my first post. You are the one that changed it into what He does.

    But I’m not here to argue with you, you may have the last word.

    Blessings in Christ, Not me
     
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  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    You made a wrong comparison as I showed you. We know what the Nature of God is by the declaration of Scripture, and by what He does. But you have chosen to believe only parts that you like.

    God is love. How do you know? By the declaration of Scripture and by the love you experience from God as a believer. God can and does hate. How do you know? By the declaration of Scripture and the actions of God towards his enemies through vengeance. You see, you cannot separate one from the other. God does what He does due to Who He is.

    As I said, God is good period. And what He does is good, period. Irregardless of what you may think of it, it is good. God hates some, and it is good.

    If you don't want to believe it, fine. See if you can find a Bible that has taken that out of the Scripture. It is quite possible now days.

    Stranger
     
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  20. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere in my post or in Paul's letters is God cast as evil. It would appear that you have chosen to reply to this post to let us all know that you have no desire to actually address or even answer the questions presented. Got it.
     
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