Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ah, i'm kinda following, i guess as you know i do not believe that God "exists" in the manner that we define that term or God for that matter...um, you mean their conspiracy theories in what venue, religious or political there?

I am saying that Many Christians value their conspiracy theories more than their faith in God
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Do humans ever make mistakes?
yes, but to suggest that mistakes are in any way rampant in the reproduction of Scripture is a fool's errand, i think. I tell you that even atheist epigraphers do not debate the accuracy of Scriptural copies of the original languages, it just isnt even done seriously. Ten minutes on the web looking for one would show
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@BreadOfLife

Re: post no. 309

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


BUMP.

So?
Do you give up?
If not, I'm expecting a reply.
I'm expecting you to show me how nothing has changed in the catholic church....
Which YOU claimed nothing IMPORTANT changed.

Would YOU say giving the EUCHARIST to persons in known MORTAL SIN
is an important change in the church?
It would be a DISCIPLINARY matter - not a doctrinal one.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I am saying that Many Christians value their conspiracy theories more than their faith in God
ah, you knw, i wonder if "faith in God" really even applies to most ppl who ID as Christian tbh...maybe as a noun. As much as i might like to imagine that my faith is a verb, it keeps turning into a noun, anyway...ha.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ah, you knw, i wonder if "faith in God" really even applies to most ppl who ID as Christian tbh...maybe as a noun. As much as i might like to imagine that my faith is a verb, it keeps turning into a noun, anyway...ha.

Well, when you fail to have faith in the world around you, can you have faith in God?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Well, when you fail to have faith in the world around you, can you have faith in God?
ah, well, "world" you are maybe meaning diff than i am hearing, dunno, so i have to say i dont really get the connection in the two, imo i'm not supposed to have any faith in the world?
 

Grams

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2017
1,509
1,080
113
88
brown city
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, some people tell stories of turning against the Catholic Church but that is not what happened to you really, nor to me. God has His own reasons at times for doing things which we may not immediately understand. Sometimes even only after many years do we begin to understand why!

When I was an active devout Catholic no man could have convinced me to leave that church. Nevertheless God did bring me out and in spite of the good memories I have of my times in the Catholic Church, I have never given serious thought to ever returning.

Give God the glory!

Yes Amadeus,
I agree on that !
And now we have a bible to read, no more prayer book.
I kept it for a year or two and then just got rid [prayer book] of it last year.
It is sure nice reading the bible these day's........
And I still want to get my girl friend out of that church.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you really need to shut up and get a clue, and apologize to GG while youre at it, you snivelling little tripe. The Catholic church is straight out of hell, and completely anathema to Christianity as you well know, or would if you were not such an accomplished idiot. We have copious Scripture, that you cannot read and will not hear, to attest to this, and of course even your being here rather than on a Catholic forum is ample testimony, but i pray that you stay so that all might see an example of what religion does to ppl, particularly the Roman Religion, which can only lead to death, which is after all what you prefer.

Christ plainly stated that He came to demolish your satanic temple bro, suck on it
When you say “We” – do you have a mouse in your pocket?

MOST people around here don’t agree with your bizarre man-made theology - so I’m not sure who “We” is, Einstein . . .
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes Amadeus,
I agree on that !
And now we have a bible to read, no more prayer book.
I kept it for a year or two and then just got rid [prayer book] of it last year.
It is sure nice reading the bible these day's........
And I still want to get my girl friend out of that church.
Just stay close to God yourself Grams. Praise His name!
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I have explained this to you, ad nauseam, and you don’t seem to be able to grasp it – but your ENTIRE argument about whether or not remarried people or ANYBODY else can receive communion is a matter of DISCIPLINE – not doctrine.

Your insistence on my giving you an answer to your question is stupid because NOT every case is the same. HOWEVER- - IF the Pope declare tomorrow that ALL divorced and remarried people were allowed to receive communion – this would STILL be a matter of discipline and NOT doctrine.

The matters surrounding marriage are doctrinal.

The matters surrounding what should be withheld from divorced people is DISCIPLINE.

Hopefully this sinks in this time.
If not – I can suggest the names of a few good, competent therapists . . .
And I should believe YOU?

How about proving it.
Thanks.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yeah as long as you don’t have a prayer book you can sing those repetitive worship songs until Armageddon!
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Giving the body and blood to someone IN MORTAL SIN is a discipline?

I think it falls on the person receiving the Eucharist to determine whether they should be receiving it or not. They can do so by committing to prayer and reconciliation

Personally, one of my frustration with some Bishops/Priests is when they decide the condition of a person’s heart and relationship with God and make the decision for people
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
this tells me you still believe you are reading literal history, and imo hidden from the wise prolly doesnt work like that? The surface story is imo rarely--sometimes prolly, but--the real story, in Scripture. Or say strictly milk anyway. Now i guess i should rather never eat meat again rather than offend etcetc, but i justify that to irl as i would rather be offended here if at all possible myself, as thats how i know i'm prolly wrong but my point is they did not have to remember anything, most likely.

i know thats maybe a big bite to take, but for an example there was then extant a large camp of Jews in Cyrene, and the Simon of Cyrene Incident might be perceived as the Jews there giving their blessing to the NT, broadly speaking, the literal verbal exchange actually pointing to this in an interesting "naive" way that really almost cant be explained in words, how one is supposed to take it. Picture understanding "stay here for the present" one way v the other, only this one has another dimension, a pointer like thing in it. Man, i forget how i saw it, there was a study, and someone suggested trying diff roles...oh ya, imagine Simon saying his lines as a four year old, what a four year old would mean by them. Might not be your thing right now, but ya. There isnt an accidental word in Scripture imo, all the apparent contradictions are installed on purpose i think
bb
This will cover all 3 of your posts to me since they deal with the same idea.

I didn't say there are conflicts in the N.T.
There are some conflicts but they're unimportant.

What I'm saying is that we do not have the exact words of Jesus.
There was a member on another forum that stuck to every word in the N.T. as if God wrote the book Himself.

This is NOT what inspired means.

I really don't want to discuss this any further because I've noticed that some don't even understand what I'm saying.
 
  • Like
Reactions: aspen

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
? why? no one has to do this, we are aware of how copies were made, and i might reiterate here that the law of sin and death was literal then, a deliberate mis-copy would get you killed, pseudo-epigraphs were only disseminated anonymously, and the strictures on becoming a scribe--virtually a priest--and the scrutiny that every copy underwent before being declared acceptable was beyond extreme, puts our current copyediting practices to absolute shame, even for current non-fiction, even with computer progs to help, somehow.

A bevy of other priests proofread each copy, and the virtual absence of copyedit flaws speaks for itself, gg

you'd think with progs we would be pretty flawless in our copyediting now, huh? But i tell you that its confidence index is 3 magnitudes lower than the Bible's, on a good day
This was true for the O.T.
This was not true for the N.T.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I think it falls on the person receiving the Eucharist to determine whether they should be receiving it or not. They can do so by committing to prayer and reconciliation

Personally, one of my frustration with some Bishops/Priests is when they decide the condition of a person’s heart and relationship with God and make the decision for people
A, it has nothing to do with prayer and reconciliation.

Don't you understand? There can be no reconciliation if they are remarried.
Because they are LIVING in CONSTANT MORTAL SIN.

The ONLY condition existing is that they'd have to be living as brother and sister. (this is how the church calls it).

With the NEW rules, remarrieds can be living a normal life AND STILL RECEIVE COMMUNION.

This is a change in DOCTRINE.

Those that cannot accept the fact that the church has made a change in DOCTRINE, insist that it is ONLY disciplinary.

I was involved in many discussion about this with the church....
there would be no reason for so many to be so upset if this were only a matter of discipline.
I could post links and links on this.
If you notice BreadofLife has posted one page, and nothing from the Vatican.


I would like to remind you that I'm no longer catholic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
@aspen

Here, just in case you don't believe me.

Reconciliation in the sacrament of Penance which would open the way to the Eucharist, can only be granted to those who, repenting of having broken the sign of the Covenant and of fidelity to Christ, are sincerely ready to undertake a way of life that is no longer in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage. This means, in practice, that when, for serious reasons, such as for example the children's upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they "take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples."

source: Pope Francis on the Divorced and Remarried: 10 Things to Know and Share
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A, it has nothing to do with prayer and reconciliation.

Don't you understand? There can be no reconciliation if they are remarried.
Because they are LIVING in CONSTANT MORTAL SIN.

The ONLY condition existing is that they'd have to be living as brother and sister. (this is how the church calls it).

With the NEW rules, remarrieds can be living a normal life AND STILL RECEIVE COMMUNION.

This is a change in DOCTRINE.

Those that cannot accept the fact that the church has made a change in DOCTRINE, insist that it is ONLY disciplinary.

I was involved in many discussion about this with the church....
there would be no reason for so many to be so upset if this were only a matter of discipline.
I could post links and links on this.
If you notice BreadofLife has posted one page, and nothing from the Vatican.


I would like to remind you that I'm no longer catholic.

Oops...I am guilty of jumping into a conversation that I did not read completely before commenting - sorry about that.

Yes, you are making the same argument as many people who are conservative and do not like the current Pope. It is a legitimate POV. Personally, I love the current Pope and I know that doctrine develops over time. Some Catholics like to point out that doctrine develops when it suits their argument and then deny it when it doesn’t,
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Oops...I am guilty of jumping into a conversation that I did not read completely before commenting - sorry about that.

Yes, you are making the same argument as many people who are conservative and do not like the current Pope. It is a legitimate POV. Personally, I love the current Pope and I know that doctrine develops over time. Some Catholics like to point out that doctrine develops when it suits their argument and then deny it when it doesn’t,
LOL
Agreed! About the doctrine part.
This conversation has nothing to do with this Pope.

@BreadOfLife insisted that it is not possible for the church to make a change in doctrine.
THIS IS A CHANGE IN DOCTRINE. (emphasis...I never yell).

Now he says it's a change in discipline.
Is giving the body and blood to a person in CONTINUOUS MORTAL SIN a discipline!!
I think not.

If Pope Francis is going to allow remarrieds to receive communion while they live together as husband and wife....this is an important change in catholic doctrine...which states that a person in mortal sin cannot receive communion.

A discipline would be
How many times a day communion can be received
How long before receiving can one eat/or take medicine with water
The age for first communion...
and other such matters of SMALL IMPORTANCE.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
@aspen
A, I hate to beat a dead horse,
but this is a good article on why Amoris Laetitia caused such an uproar with is still raging.

It is a MORAL question and all moral questions must go through the Magesterium, as I'm sure you know. It is a question of FAITH since Jesus declared that marriage in indissoluable.

Unfortunately for me, I had to know about this inside out, before it happened, as it was happening, and finally after it happened.

I'm pretty much out of the picture now.

Five Serious Problems with Chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia – Catholic World Report