Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

[ReChoired]

Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out together.

I haven't always believed what I currently believe, and it took some time to really think and pray about what I believe, and why, and whether those beliefs were true, had any rationality to them, and were biblically sound. In that searching, I found some of the things I believed were untrue, not rational, and incoherent, even dangerous, but was willing to consider what I believed anyway, and in so doing, was willing to change where needful.

So this thread is for that purpose, that we may all consider what we believe, why we believe it, by some searching, studying, thinking and praying.

For instance, I believe Jesus is returning very soon, yet I did not always used to believe that, or even think on it.

 

[Helen]

No, I haven't always believed what I believe...and even some of the things I believe I 'hold lightly'.

We walk in the light that we believe God has led us...some things I am totally FIRM on...other things I find are not 'a beach to die upon' ....
As Paul said 1 Cor 13:12
" For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

People who 'argue the point' as if they know everything..are foolish, we do not know everything.....yet.

Bless you....H

 

[Helen]

 

[ReChoired]

No, I haven't always believed what I believe...and even some of the things I believe I 'hold lightly'.

We walk in the light that we believe God has led us...some things I am totally FIRM on...other things I find are not 'a beach to die upon' ....
As Paul said 1 Cor 13:12
" For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

People who 'argue the point' as if they know everything..are foolish, we do not know everything.....yet.

Bless you....H

Interested in what you might hold 'lightly' vs what you might hold 'tightly', would you give 2 small personal examples?

I agree we do not yet know "everything", such as the day and hour of Jesus' coming, but would you agree we can indeed know "something", as in for 'sure' or 'tightly' and not as 'lightly'? A for instance, would be the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Can we hold this 'tightly', or ought we hold it 'lightly'?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I grew up in a very legalistic denomination based on the OT Law until I was 23. Then I had an all night marathon talk/debate with someone until 4 am, until it was like a light went on spiritually. Then I changed from the very legalistic denomination on the Law to a different very legalistic denomination, but this time on Grace - the wrong definition of grace, but away from the Law. Both denominations were staunch Cessationists. A year later I got into another debate, through the mail; this time with a Charismatic in the early 70's Jesus movement. Upon writing her back and studying 1 Corinthians 13, my rebuttal verse, I came to the end of the chapter, and another light went on spiritually! Now I was no longer a Cessationist! Over many decades God has been stripping off every false doctrine I've ever had to where I am no denomination at all, and am fully in a family relationship with God. A few years ago I asked God to teach me the only meaning of each verse that He inspired. Since then it has been like an explosion of revelation knowledge of His Word. I love it. But what I have found is that false doctrines have been around for so long and infected so many denominations, that the false has become truth in many minds, and truth has become foolishness and impossible. Looks like I'll be debating the rest of my life. LOL

 

[CharismaticLady]

Interested in what you might hold 'lightly' vs what you might hold 'tightly', would you give 2 small personal examples?

I agree we do not yet know "everything", such as the day and hour of Jesus' coming, but would you agree we can indeed know "something", as in for 'sure' or 'tightly' and not as 'lightly'? A for instance, would be the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Can we hold this 'tightly', or ought we hold it 'lightly'?

I'll stick my 2 cents in... Those are core issues in every denomination and held tightly by all.

 

[ReChoired]

Over many decades God has been stripping off every false doctrine I've ever had to where I am no denomination at all, and am fully in a family relationship with God.

Is the 'no denomination' something you would still look at? For instance, do you consider the council of Jerusalem, in Acts 15 to be binding upon yourself, and/or the other churches in other cities then (ex. Corinth, Rome, Galatia, Philippi, Ephesus, Colossae, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Laodicea, and so also elsewhere), and now?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Is the 'no denomination' something you would still look at? For instance, do you consider the council of Jerusalem, in Acts 15 to be binding upon yourself, and/or the other churches in other cities then (ex. Corinth, Rome, Galatia, Philippi, Ephesus, Colossae, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Laodicea, and so also elsewhere), and now?

Acts 15? Yes, of course. It is inspired Scripture. I consider myself of the church age of Philadelphia, and I pray I'm right! Most of the Church is of Thyatira or Sardis. Those are definitely denominations.

 

[Dan57]

For instance, I believe Jesus is returning very soon, yet I did not always used to believe that, or even think on it.

I believed the same thing 40 years ago... I was wrong.. Now I don't believe he will return soon. But then I read; "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (Luke 12:40). So since I don't think he'll come, I reckon there's a chance he will?

 

[ReChoired]

Acts 15? Yes, of course. It is inspired Scripture. I consider myself of the church age of Philadelphia, and I pray I'm right! Most of the Church is of Thyatira or Sardis. Those are definitely denominations.

Ok, so, do you gather with a congregation, and is that congregation associated with a greater world-wide body, and is the body also represented by such an council as found in Acts 15?

The question is attempting to ascertain whether you are individually independent (isolated), or held accountable in a wider circle with council, as we see with Acts 15, and so also with Paul, in Acts 9, "... Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." and so Paul was "baptized" into the body.

 

[ReChoired]

I believed the same thing 40 years ago... I was wrong.. Now I don't believe he will return soon. But then I read; "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (Luke 12:40). So since I don't think he'll come, I reckon there's a chance he will?

Actually a good indication. I am interested in why you do not think Jesus is going to return 'soon'. Do you have a list of reasons, and if so, would you list top 3?

 

[brakelite]

I grew up in a very legalistic denomination based on the OT Law until I was 23. Then I had an all night marathon talk/debate with someone until 4 am, until it was like a light went on spiritually. Then I changed from the very legalistic denomination on the Law to a different very legalistic denomination, but this time on Grace - the wrong definition of grace, but away from the Law. Both denominations were staunch Cessationists. A year later I got into another debate, through the mail; this time with a Charismatic in the early 70's Jesus movement. Upon writing her back and studying 1 Corinthians 13, my rebuttal verse, I came to the end of the chapter, and another light went on spiritually! Now I was no longer a Cessationist! Over many decades God has been stripping off every false doctrine I've ever had to where I am no denomination at all, and am fully in a family relationship with God. A few years ago I asked God to teach me the only meaning of each verse that He inspired. Since then it has been like an explosion of revelation knowledge of His Word. I love it. But what I have found is that false doctrines have been around for so long and infected so many denominations, that the false has become truth in many minds, and truth has become foolishness and impossible. Looks like I'll be debating the rest of my life. LOL

My own denomination was, and still is by some, accused of being legalistic and too focused on OT law...and I don't blame the church for that, but rather skewed representatives off that church who didn't, and don't fully understand their own denominations true teachings.
There are some also outside the denomination who not wanting to obey God's commandments for any reason like to accuse us of being legalistic as an excuse to continue their self restricting lives.
I also laid aside many incorrect beliefs to get where I am..and even here have continued to grow, and like Helen, hold some things loosely.

 

[ReChoired]

My own denomination was, and still is by some, accused of being legalistic and too focused on OT law...and I don't blame the church for that, but rather skewed representatives off that church who didn't, and don't fully understand their own denominations true teachings.
There are some also outside the denomination who not wanting to obey God's commandments for any reason like to accuse us of being legalistic as an excuse to continue their self restricting lives.
I also laid aside many incorrect beliefs to get where I am..and even here have continued to grow, and like Helen, hold some things loosely.

What "incorrect beliefs" have you "laid aside"? Would you list your top 5 (if there are 5)?

 

[farouk]

Actually a good indication. I am interested in why you do not think Jesus is going to return 'soon'. Do you have a list of reasons, and if so, would you list top 3?

If we distinguish between Israel and the church, then what the aspects of the coming mean can be significant.

 

[ReChoired]

If we distinguish between Israel and the church, then what the aspects of the coming mean can be significant.

Well, we can look at the "head" of the "Church", "Jesus Christ", and see what Matthew stated by inspiration:

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
Mat 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Who was Matthew citing? Who did Matthew state was the fulfillment? What is this person's name according to the prophet that Matthew cited?

 

[farouk]

Well, we can look at the "head" of the "Church", "Jesus Christ", and see what Matthew stated by inspiration:

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
Mat 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Who was Matthew citing? Who did Matthew state was the fulfillment? What is this person's name according to the prophet that Matthew cited?

We do see both the church and Israel in Scripture; 1 Corinthians 10.32; the Gentiles, also...

 

[ReChoired]

We do see both the church and Israel in Scripture; 1 Corinthians 10.32; the Gentiles, also...

If you might answer my questions, and we have a dialogue?

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

1Co 10:32 απροσκοποι γινεσθε και ιουδαιοις και ελλησιν και τη εκκλησια του θεου

I do not see "Israel" in 1 Cor 10:32. It says, "Jews" (ιουδαιοις), "Gentiles" (ελλησιν; [h]ellesin (Hellenists)) and "Church of God" (εκκλησια του θεου).

 

[farouk]

If you might answer my questions, and we have a dialogue?

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

1Co 10:32 απροσκοποι γινεσθε και ιουδαιοις και ελλησιν και τη εκκλησια του θεου

I do not see "Israel" in 1 Cor 10:32. It says, "Jews" (ιουδαιοις), "Gentiles" (ελλησιν; [h]ellesin (Hellenists)) and "Church of God" (εκκλησια του θεου).

Okay, so Jews collectively, I guess...

What the aspects of the Lord's coming mean are different to the Jew, the Gentile and the church of God; I don't see an institution in Scripture that somehow lumps them all together...(I'm dispensational).

 

[ReChoired]

Okay, so Jews collectively, I guess...

What the aspects of the Lord's coming mean are different to the Jew, the Gentile and the church of God; I don't see an institution in Scripture that somehow lumps them all together...(I'm dispensational).

Have you always been a 'dispensational'? Could that position be incorrect?

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Would you mind, if you consider the questions I had in regards Matthew 2:13-21 please. I am interested in your answers.

 

[farouk]

Well, we can look at the "head" of the "Church", "Jesus Christ", and see what Matthew stated by inspiration:

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
Mat 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Who was Matthew citing? Who did Matthew state was the fulfillment? What is this person's name according to the prophet that Matthew cited?

The Old Testament references there do not refer to the church.

I don't see the church anywhere in the Old Testament.