Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

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ReChoired

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You have asked lots of questions here...
Now one for you... :)

Did you receive the Holy Spirit as a separate encounter after you were born again...

Acts 19:2 " Paul unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

Thanks...
Acts 19:2 refers to those who had not yet believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and were not yet baptized into Him, having not that knowledge yet, but only that of John's baptism of repentance. Apollos had also been preaching John's baptism (repentance towards God), and had to be further instructed by Priscilla and Aquila, and baptized into Christ Jesus also.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

I have called upon the name of the LORD Jesus, am baptized into Christ Jesus, and have received the Person of the Holy Ghost, even receiving gifts from Jesus for the furtherance of the ministry, such as 'teaching' (Ephesians 4:11) and 'evangelism', and also in 'helps' (1 Corinthians 12:28).

John 3:5 is fulfilled in me, "born of water and of the Spirit".

Good question. Thank you for asking.
 
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ReChoired

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I agree. Before I was filled with the Spirit I had no power over sin, and not one of my prayers were answered for 30 years. But after being filled with the Spirit, I had no desire for sin, and started truly abiding in Him, and all my prayers have been answered for over 40 years. 1 John 3:21-24

Are you finding all your prayers are answered as God's word says will happen for those abiding in Him, and not just knowing about Him?
What do you mean by "sin"?
 
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amadeus

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Ok, but how do we determine the real or true "Him"? There are many calling themselves "Jesus", "Christ", "Lord", and even "God" and "I AM" these days.

I may not understand everything about "Him" (doctrinally), yet surely, we must hold to the real and 'true' "Him", otherwise what we hold to is false, even very dangerous to us. For instance, the new-age movement speaks of the 'I AM', and 'God', even the inner 'Christ' consciousness. If I hold to this, am I safe or in complete and total danger of eternal loss?

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4


If we are His sheep, then we do know His voice. So the only question would be, are we? Those on the left hand are goats and those on the right hand are sheep.

Each morning when I meet with the Lord, I reconfirm my place with Him starting at the bottom as I stated on another post. The danger for people who do not meet with Him regularly and come to recognize His voice is being or becoming being deluded as Apostle Paul calls it because they do not really love the Truth. People will say that they love Jesus and that He is the Truth, but they don't act like lovers. If they really love Him first before anything else they will not hesitate and make excuses about meeting with Him regularly and even more often than they have in the past:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11


Or...

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Rev 2:4

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
 
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ReChoired

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Not to me...but I will give a few...for me not 'laid aside' but thrown out violently and trampled underfoot.
Ok. Gentle or violently, it is still 'laid off', and this was the intent of the question, but thank you for the detail.

1) That God is angry all the time , and just waiting to smite people who don't toe His line. ( His angry against sin itself was poured out upon the spotless Last Lamb, Jesus Christ upon the cross. 'While we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly..' )
Do you still hold to the belief that wrath is still coming upon the finally impenitent (unrepentant)? Such as the 7 last plagues?

Does Psalms 7:11 have any relevance for today:

Psa_7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

I am not promoting the idea of the dark ages 'god', but rather, the God of scripture, the God of Justice and Mercy (Exodus 20:5-7; Psalms 85:10), not merely 'mercy', not merely 'justice'.

What of the righteous 'anger' of Mark 3:5?

Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

What about Hebrews 10:29?

Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Some other things too...but...I see what you are doing here...you get our responses so you can box us into our beliefs
Actually the thread is open and plain before all. No secret intents whatsoever. Any who do not desire to participate are free not to, and free to not divulge anything about what they believe (though I believe that to be contrary to the gospel commission itself). I am not here to box anyone in, but to have people really think about what they believe, and why they believe it, and see if there may not be room to change that belief to that which is more correct, to fuller light, etc. This includes my own. I am open to honest and sincere questions and challenges to what I believe, and I do not fear in answering others questions as such.

If any person feel 'boxed in' by my questions, perhaps it is necessary to take a closer look at what they believe, and think upon my questions in the light of scripture a little further, for the possibility then exists that something in that belief is unwilling to come to greater light, and that is the point of this thread.

...then when you are on other threads you have an idea where we are coming from...clever!! :)
You are prophesying of what I will do? Or do you have absolute knowledge of the future? The intent of this thread was for no such purposes, except as is stated in the OP. If you may consider my words, I would like to say you have misread my intentions, and yet you do not have to believe me.

As for mine own beliefs, I am unashamed of them at present, though I have been ashamed of what I believed and practiced in the past.

But then again...by your response to Charismatic Lady ( re nondenominational ) I noted you are somewhat of a legalist ...I notched that one up!! :D
I am one for a far superior word and relation, "love", never 'legalism". Love has rules, regulations and boundaries in relationship (such as marriage does, vows, boundaries, rules, a covenant), where the persons are paramount to keep that relationship, and in 'legalism' it is the rules that are paramount, not the relation.
 
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amadeus

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Okay, Hmm...
First of all, The Rapture (Pre-Trib) was something I subscribed to for decades. What changed my mind was not just one particular reason but several. Re-reading the scriptures pertaing to said rapture, listening to people on here and especially that at my local body, we are in the middle of this very subject! :)

This one will be tougher to give you a detailed "why"...I do not believe the Church will "go to Heaven" but, I believe we will be in the "New Earth"...again, scriptures...I believe God will come and live with humanity forever...Rev. 21-22. As well as others like John 21...? I think we will be living on the Earth AS it is in Heaven :) I'll think of more I'm sure :)
And also sister consider what these words might mean:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 7:20-21
 

ReChoired

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Okay, Hmm...
First of all, The Rapture (Pre-Trib) was something I subscribed to for decades. What changed my mind was not just one particular reason but several. Re-reading the scriptures pertaing to said rapture, listening to people on here and especially that at my local body, we are in the middle of this very subject! :)

This one will be tougher to give you a detailed "why"...I do not believe the Church will "go to Heaven" but, I believe we will be in the "New Earth"...again, scriptures...I believe God will come and live with humanity forever...Rev. 21-22. As well as others like John 21...? I think we will be living on the Earth AS it is in Heaven :) I'll think of more I'm sure :)
Ok, thank you for sharing. May I challenge you (kindly) with some scripture about the second belief? (I also do not believe in a 'pre-trib' 'rapture', and in fact think that teaching very dangerous)

What if I shared with you scripture that states that the saints (church) will indeed enter heaven, but also come back to earth (where it will be made New) and reign upon it for ever and ever, and yet still have access to all of Heaven and all the starry worlds on high? Would you be interested in considering what I might share with you?
 
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ReChoired

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As for "Jesus returning soon", if He is with you--He has already returned, for He went to the Father as He said. Having first come in the flesh, He has ascended, and all who confess that He is in them and them in Him, are witnesses--He has returned.
I am not speaking about the 'representative', the Person of the Holy Ghost who comes in Jesus' name (in 'persona christi', John 14:26) who is with me "alway", but I am speaking about the real physical (not spiritual) return of Jesus Christ to this earth.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The manner in which Jesus left, in the glory of the cloud of angels, is how shall He also return:

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 
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ReChoired

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"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4


If we are His sheep, then we do know His voice. So the only question would be, are we? Those on the left hand are goats and those on the right hand are sheep.

Each morning when I meet with the Lord, I reconfirm my place with Him starting at the bottom as I stated on another post. The danger for people who do not meet with Him regularly and come to recognize His voice is being or becoming being deluded as Apostle Paul calls it because they do not really love the Truth. People will say that they love Jesus and that He is the Truth, but they don't act like lovers. If they really love Him first before anything else they will not hesitate and make excuses about meeting with Him regularly and even more often than they have in the past:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11


Or...

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Rev 2:4

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
I understand what you say about prayer. Yet, I do have a question about what you mean by "love". So, would you consider Jeremiah, Daniel, John the Baptist those who are filled with love at the time of their living? In other words, does love call sin by its right name, calling people to repentance?

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

It may happen directly (Acts 9:4-6) or indirectly (Galatians 2:11), yes?

What does "love" bring people to do according to the scripture?

What is the "voice" of the Shepherd, according to scripture?

What is God's "righteousness"?
 

amadeus

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I understand what you say about prayer. Yet, I do have a question about what you mean by "love". So, would you consider Jeremiah, Daniel, John the Baptist those who are filled with love at the time of their living? In other words, does love call sin by its right name, calling people to repentance?
What does it matter what I consider about those OT prophets? They have finished their own courses long before I came on the scene. Consider what Ezekiel says here about three men of God in the OT that we do look to at times:

"Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD." Ezek 14:13-14

As for John the Baptist, we have the words of Jesus here:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matt 11:11

God inspired Ezekiel to write that about them. Nothing self-serving there, is there?

What is Love, but God Himself?


"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." I John 4:16

Does God not know what sin is? If He really dwells in us and we in Him, what do you suppose that means with regard to us?

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

It may happen directly (Acts 9:4-6) or indirectly (Galatians 2:11), yes?

What does "love" bring people to do according to the scripture?

What is the "voice" of the Shepherd, according to scripture?

What is God's "righteousness"?

Who is it that the Lord chastens, but His sons?

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:6-8


Never mind what the Shepherd's voice is according the scriptures. What is according to you if you are one of His sheep? How is it that we hear anything from God? It is NOT by the scriptures alone which do nothing of themselves while the book remains closed and unread and unheard?

The Holy Spirit is a quickening Spirit, without which for us, there is no real Life and we remain dead to God.
 
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ReChoired

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Does a person have to believe in gravity in order to fall by it's power? Does that person need to know the word for gravity...as in getting the nomenclature right in order to fall correctly?

It is a question of discerning the spiritual from the religious...which in our day few seem able to do.
How do you tell the difference between the 'force' which is from God, and the 'force' which is from the devil?

Mankind calls an effect 'gravity', but that doesn't explain it, just gives the effect a name, and doesn't say whether that effect experienced is from God or another. How does one tell the difference in truth?
 

ReChoired

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What does it matter what I consider about those OT prophets? They have finished their own courses long before I came on the scene. ... Never mind what the Shepherd's voice is according the scriptures. ...
Thank you for your time.
 
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ScottA

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I am not speaking about the 'representative', the Person of the Holy Ghost who comes in Jesus' name (in 'persona christi', John 14:26) who is with me "alway", but I am speaking about the real physical (not spiritual) return of Jesus Christ to this earth.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The manner in which Jesus left, in the glory of the cloud of angels, is how shall He also return:

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
It is easy to see how this is misunderstood, most have. But it doesn't say what you assume it says.

The "like manner" does not make void the rest of scripture and the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But rather, it tells us that the "like manner" is not like Jesus' first coming in the flesh, but rather that His second coming is in the "like manner" of Him committing only His spirit to the Father. The "like manner" spoken of in that passage is not in the context of His resurrection, but rather in the context of His ascension. On the contrary, He gave up His "physical" body as a sacrifice.

There is no "physical" return of Jesus, except within the "body" of His church, i.e. "to live is Christ."
 
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Helen

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It is easy to see how this is misunderstood, most have. But it doesn't say what you assume it says.

The "like manner" does not make void the rest of scripture and the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But rather, it tells us that the "like manner" is not like Jesus' first coming in the flesh, but rather that His second coming is in the "like manner" of Him committing only His spirit to the Father. On the contrary, He gave up His "physical" body as a sacrifice.

There is no "physical" return of Jesus, except within the "body" of His church, i.e. "to live is Christ."


Good post.
Esp < There is no "physical" return of Jesus, except within the "body" of His church, i.e. "to live is Christ. >

Yay! I could never say it as clearly as you say it here in this post!
Thanks ..

thumbup1[1].gif
 

ReChoired

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It is easy to see how this is misunderstood, most have. But it doesn't say what you assume it says.

The "like manner" does not make void the rest of scripture and the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But rather, it tells us that the "like manner" is not like Jesus' first coming in the flesh, but rather that His second coming is in the "like manner" of Him committing only His spirit to the Father. On the contrary, He gave up His "physical" body as a sacrifice.

There is no "physical" return of Jesus, except within the "body" of His church, i.e. "to live is Christ."
That theology is very Ignatius L., yet scripture says this:

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Notice, it does not say 'spirit-body' (which is a contradiction in scriptural terms). Jesus was resurrected bodily, and that body was glorified, 'immortalized', and He is coming back in the same:

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

You have a present misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 15:50, and in doing so, alters your entire belief.

1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The previous context states:

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Thus read 1 Corinthians 15:35-44 just prior, in its speaking of the celestial bodies, the flesh and the glory thereof. The verse of 1 Corinthians 15:50 is parallel to itself, and defines itself, for when Paul states "flesh and blood" it is paralleled by "corruption" in the same sentence. Paul is saying the fallen flesh cannot inherit. He is not saying immortalized glorified flesh (as Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Enoch, the Firstfruits have) cannot. Notice:

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

He is speaking of the flesh itself in the power of the resurrection. Just as Jesus is resurrected so too those who died in Him, and those who live will be transformed in a moment, and translated, and be as the angels, who have celestial bodies of flesh (immortal).
 
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ReChoired

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Good post.
Esp < There is no "physical" return of Jesus, except within the "body" of His church, i.e. "to live is Christ. >

Yay! I could never say it as clearly as you say it here in this post!
Thanks ..
A very dangerous heresy which will bring many to their own destruction. It destroys the physical permanent resurrection (which there will not be for all who have died in Christ Jesus until Jesus physically returns), and places all men without a future hope of anything. It is in effect Sadducean teaching.
 

Helen

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A very dangerous heresy which will bring many to their own destruction. It destroys the physical permanent resurrection (which there will not be for all who have died in Christ Jesus until Jesus physically returns), and places all men without a future hope of anything. It is in effect Sadducean teaching.


As you say...but like we said earlier in this thread...no one knows all things...and until God shows me something differently, I believe it.

From Gen -Rev He is seeking a Bride....He will inhabit His people ...
 
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Helen

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A very dangerous heresy which will bring many to their own destruction. It destroys the physical permanent resurrection (which there will not be for all who have died in Christ Jesus until Jesus physically returns), and places all men without a future hope of anything. It is in effect Sadducean teaching.

So..now you are telling us what is right and what is wrong? o_O
That is your view and opinion...and you are very welcome to it!!
 

amadeus

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As you say...but like we said earlier in this thread...no one knows all things...and until God shows me something differently, I believe it.

From Gen -Rev He is seeking a Bride....He will inhabit His people ...
"But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel." Psalm 22:3
 
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ScottA

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That theology is very Ignatius L., yet scripture says this:

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Notice, it does not say 'spirit-body' (which is a contradiction in scriptural terms). Jesus was resurrected bodily, and that body was glorified, 'immortalized', and He is coming back in the same:

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

You have a present misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 15:50, and in doing so, alters your entire belief.

1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The previous context states:

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Thus read 1 Corinthians 15:35-44 just prior, in its speaking of the celestial bodies, and the glory thereof. The verse of 1 Corinthians 15:49 is parallel to itself, and defines itself, for when Paul states "flesh and blood" it is paralleled by "corruption" in the same sentence. Paul is saying the fallen flesh cannot inherit. He is not saying immortalized glorified flesh (as Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Enoch, the Firstfruits have) cannot. Notice:

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

He is speaking of the flesh itself in the power of the resurrection. Just as Jesus is resurrected so too those who died in Him, and those who live will be transformed in a moment, and translated, and be as the angels, who have celestial bodies of flesh (immortal).
No...you have not reconciled even the verses I gave, but have denied them and stated more passages that you also cannot and have not reconciled. And you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

"God is spirit", and He is spiritual: same, same. Jesus' words are spirit and spiritual; and He did not commit any "physical" body to the Father, but only His spirit. All of which, unlike what you have gone on about, agrees with the rest of scripture, such as "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

But don't be surprised that your own "physical" self has you thinking according to the flesh, for "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6
 
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