The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[reformed1689]

YES saved by GRACE you are right. Let me appeal to your right reason and not your indoctrination: Can one who abides continue in SIN, according to scripture alone? Can one continue in sin if they are born of the Holy seed, according to scripture alone?

Not entirely sure what you are asking.

 

[CovenantPromise]

YES saved by GRACE you are right. Let me appeal to your right reason and not your indoctrination: Can one who abides continue in SIN, according to scripture alone? Can one continue in sin if they are born of the Holy seed, according to scripture alone?

Here David I will help you. First I never said she was not saved, I would be contradicting her "My Spirit rejoices in GOD MY SAVIOR". So that is not what I did EVER! I am challenging the notion that you assert, that she CONTINUES TO SIN FROM THAT MOMENT ON. That is a false doctrine! Just because you might not desire as fervently as she did to abide does not mean she did not abide upon receiving the Holy Seed!

1 John 3:8-10
Children of God
…8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother....

Who was He revealed to FIRST? Was she born of God? that is what I have been saying . She is born of God . Is that a HOLY birth? Is that a Holy Conception? HOLY:
dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred.

Similar:
sacred- Made HOLY set aside for a HOLY PURPOSE
consecrated MADE HOLY , set aside for a HOLY PURPOSE
hallowed- MADE HOLY , PURE
sanctified- SET ASIDE FOR A DIVINE PURPOSE
venerated- MADE WORTHY TO ESTEEM.

You do know the meaning of Words God designed? He- God, does know the meaning of them!

 

[CovenantPromise]

Not entirely sure what you are asking.

Well then the class is too advanced for you . It may simply be a matter of intellect. God Bless!

 

[reformed1689]

Well then the class is too advanced for you . It may simply be a matter of intellect. God Bless!

If you are asking if a born again believer has potential to commit sin the answer, according to Scripture alone, is yes.

 

[reformed1689]

Here David I will help you. First I never said she was not saved, I would be contradicting her "My Spirit rejoices in GOD MY SAVIOR". So that is not what I did EVER! I am challenging the notion that you assert, that she CONTINUES TO SIN FROM THAT MOMENT ON. That is a false doctrine! Just because you might not desire as fervently as she did to abide does not mean she did not abide upon receiving the Holy Seed!

1 John 3:8-10
Children of God
…8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother....

Who was He revealed to FIRST? Was she born of God? that is what I have been saying . She is born of God . Is that a HOLY birth? Is that a Holy Conception? HOLY:
dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred.

Similar:
sacred- Made HOLY set aside for a HOLY PURPOSE
consecrated MADE HOLY , set aside for a HOLY PURPOSE
hallowed- MADE HOLY , PURE
sanctified- SET ASIDE FOR A DIVINE PURPOSE
venerated- MADE WORTHY TO ESTEEM.

You do know the meaning of Words God designed . He does know the meaning of them!

Yet Paul says he still sinned, James tells us to confess sins one to another. There is nothing that says Mary never sinned, nor did not sin in the future after Christ's birth. Not a single verse states that.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Yet Paul says he still sinned, James tells us to confess sins one to another. There is nothing that says Mary never sinned, nor did not sin in the future after Christ's birth. Not a single verse states that.

Yes the scriptures prove that she abides you can put scripture against scripture all you want. Paul does not delete out John nor John, Paul. What is clear is, each has a processes. Paul reveals his that many can relate to. And those who are not purposed for the singular designation to be the God Bearer had a different process. Are you saying every person has the same exact gift? Then you contradict each member of the body. Are you saying that each person's salvation story is the same? Then you deny the individual experience. Can Mother Miryam sin once she abides in the Holy Seed and He in her? Absolutely NOT! because scripture says so. She is the end result of all -in being designated -CHOSEN ,to be the MOTHER of Christ. And is the reason why Paul desires us to be presented to Christ as virgins:
2 Corinthians 11:21
1I hope you will bear with a little of my foolishness, but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.…
SHE IS THE FIRST EXAMPLE OF THIS concerning her chaste spirit in service to God. She is the sign of this, being the sign of Immanuel. A sign is a standard!
Isaiah 7:12-14
The Sign of Immanuel
…12But Ahaz replied, “I will not ask; I will not test the LORD.” 13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and she will call Him Immanuel

As Pure virgin souls and chaste vessels, we too possess Christ within. Not in the WOMB CLEARLY ,but as virgin vessels made as such through obedience- ABIDING IN CHRIST.
She is righteous as Christ is righteous.
1John 2:
Jesus Our Advocate

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

People are funny. They know she followed the lamb wherever He went, yet call her a sinner after He saved her??? No scriptural support for such claims, but still think she sinned after her sanctification. Weird? Is this because people are too proud to repent of all the mud slinging at her they have done?

DID SHE WALK AS JESUS WALKED?

And me saying that does not contradict one thing Paul says. But it most certainly shows her position before Paul ever became an apostle. And she birthed Paul too in birthing Christ. I said she had sin before her birth in Christ. But sins no more because she abides in Christ. And that in NO way contradicts scripture, but proves the end result revealed in her for all -PERFECTION! Is that not why Christ came? Paul shows us a process which is different from Peter's, different from John's different from John the Baptist of whom Christ said: " Of men born of women, no man is greater than John the Baptist, but I say to you, even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than him". Does that make him less than Paul? NO! For Christ is clear NO MAN BORN OF WOMEN IS GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST! But the least= a WOMAN, who is greater than even he. Who would that be? Christ does not exult John then say other men are greater. No that would be a contradiction. But women are considered to be least. So since she is BLESSED among women = ALL WOMEN , that would mean she being least -(as a woman) is greater than even him, Period! That would put her beside the right hand of Christ and SECOND to ONLY HIM, not you nor me not JOHN THE BAPTIST or the apostles , but only to Christ!

 

[reformed1689]

Yes the scriptures prove that she abides you can put scripture against scripture all you want. Paul does not delete out John nor John, Paul. What is clear is, each has a processes. Paul reveals his that many can relate to. And those who are not purposed for the singular designation to be the God Bearer had a different process. Are you saying every person has the same exact gift? Then you contradict each member of the body. Are you saying that each person's salvation story is the same? Then you deny the individual experience. Can Mother Miryam sin once she abides in the Holy Seed and He in her? Absolutely NOT! because scripture says so. She is the end result of all -in being designated -CHOSEN ,to be the MOTHER of Christ. And is the reason why Paul desires us to be presented to Christ as virgins:
2 Corinthians 11:21
1I hope you will bear with a little of my foolishness, but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.…
SHE IS THE FIRST EXAMPLE OF THIS concerning her chaste spirit in service to God. She is the sign of this, being the sign of Immanuel. A sign is a standard!
Isaiah 7:12-14
The Sign of Immanuel
…12But Ahaz replied, “I will not ask; I will not test the LORD.” 13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and she will call Him Immanuel

As Pure virgin souls and chaste vessels, we too possess Christ within. Not in the WOMB CLEARLY ,but as virgin vessels made as such through obedience- ABIDING IN CHRIST.
She is righteous as Christ is righteous.
1John 2:
Jesus Our Advocate

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

People are funny. They know she followed the lamb wherever He went, yet call her a sinner after He saved her??? No scriptural support for such claims, but still think she sinned after her sanctification. Weird? Is this because people are too proud to repent of all the mud slinging at her they have done?

DID SHE WALK AS JESUS WALKED?

And me saying that does not contradict one thing Paul says. But it most certainly shows her position before Paul ever became an apostle. And she birthed Paul too in birthing Christ. I said she had sin before her birth in Christ. But sins no more because she abides in Christ. And that in NO way contradicts scripture, but proves the end result revealed in her for all -PERFECTION! Is that not why Christ came? Paul shows us a process which is different from Peter's, different from John's different from John the Baptist of whom Christ said: " Of men born of women, no man is greater than John the Baptist, but I say to you, even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than him". Does that make him less than Paul? NO! For Christ is clear NO MAN BORN OF WOMEN IS GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST! But the least= a WOMAN, who is greater than even he. Who would that be? Christ does not exult John then say other men are greater. No that would be a contradiction. But women are considered to be least. So since she is BLESSED among women = ALL WOMEN , that would mean she being least -(as a woman) is greater than even him, Period! That would put her beside the right hand of Christ and SECOND to ONLY HIM, not you nor me not JOHN THE BAPTIST or the apostles , but only to Christ!

Yeah, more Catholic nonsense.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Yeah, more Catholic nonsense.

It is of the Universal consensus (The United Body in heaven and the Elect on earth) an eternal truth, I speak. Put it wherever you want, but you will not find ONE FAULT with it! Reject it you can, call it a lie , NEVER!

 

[reformed1689]

It is of the Universal consensus (The United Body in heaven and the Elect on earth) an eternal truth, I speak. Put it wherever you want, but you will not find ONE FAULT with it! Reject it you can, call it a lie , NEVER!

It IS a lie. Absolutely a lie. Not in Scripture. No universal consensus. It is a man-made idea, not biblical.

 

[CovenantPromise]

It IS a lie. Absolutely a lie. Not in Scripture. No universal consensus. It is a man-made idea, not biblical.

Prove it? Are you calling the scriptures I put untrue? Did I put something not upheld by the Word? If so , as I said prove it! Opinion alone does NOT count scripture alone DOES but opinion which is all you have means diddly squat !

 

[reformed1689]

Prove it? Are you calling the scriptures I put untrue? Did I put something not upheld by the Word? If so , as I said prove it! Opinion alone does NOT count scripture alone DOES but opinion which is all you have means diddly squat !

There is not one single thing you have posted from scripture that indicates Mary was sinless at any time in her life.

 

[CovenantPromise]

David Taylor,
It would seem you do not believe she abides after receiving the Holy Seed (WORD IN SPOKEN FORM AND HOLY SPIRIT PLACEMENT). You say she sins while having Christ in her, though Genesis 3:15 is clear that the Enmity would be placed between her and the serpent. All sin is from him - the father of lies and she had this removed according to PROPHECY within the scriptures alone . It would seem then that your beef is with God! You do not like His method. Too bad !He does not do according to your will but His Own. That is how it is when you made/make everything. I know everyone wants to be God. Alas, the sun rising and setting and the ocean waves in their boundaries are not yours , you did not set them. And prophecy was not written by men because they JUST FELT like writing something. But men moved By the Holy Spirit put pen to paper to give you the 411. And interpretation too is Holy Spirit guided and MAKES SENSE or else fools doctrines would be the way of the Lord. But because God, is an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER He makes PERFECT SENSE. And those who know truth listen to His voice. I am not in here because I have friends. I am passing time until the proverbial poop hits the fan. Just passing time so to say. You have NOTHING. Only opinion formulated through corrupt indoctrination.

What I will accomplish if anything in here , is great entertainment for myself until my time publicly comes, it is a process.

 

[CovenantPromise]

There is not one single thing you have posted from scripture that indicates Mary was sinless at any time in her life.

Sure not according to the deaf , dumb and blind.....ahhhh that would be YOU! Because Genesis 3:15 is pretty clear :
And I shall place enmity between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

THE WOMAN??? HMMM, why do you think on the cross (THE TREE) Christ said WOMAN behold your son MAN behold your MOTHER?
She is the WOMAN prophesied in Genesis, The VIRGIN Prophesied in Isaiah, The WOMAN at the TREE (CROSS) THE WOMAN symbolism of REV.12 Only the 144, 000 can learn the New Song. As I said...... just passing time.

 

[reformed1689]

You say she sins while having Christ in her, though Genesis 3:15 is clear that the Enmity would be placed between her and the serpent.

First, Genesis 3:15 is referring to Eve, not Mary.

All sin is from him - the father of lies and she had this removed according to PROPHECY within the scriptures alone .

This is simply not true. If so, we have no responsibility for our sin.

It would seem then that your beef is with God!

Not true.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Perhaps omnipotent was not right word. But it is definitely creating a works based salvation as if salvation is somehow dependent on man rather than the grace of God.

I don't need to. Not one of those Scriptures links Mary and the Ark.

Then it should be EASY for you to prove my use of those verses wrong.
Perhaps we can take them verse by verse. I want top make this as EASY for you as possible . . .
OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)
This is an almost VERBATIM type and fulfillment.
Please explain HOW this has been "misinterpreted" . . .

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)
How has this comparison been misinterpreted. In both cases people were "leaping for joy" before the Ark/Mary.

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country if Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country if Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)
Once again, the circumstances here are IDENTICAL.
How is this a Catholic "misinterpretation"?

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)
The circumstances are once again, uncanny, to say the least.

OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).
This type and fulfillment is FAR too precise top be a mere coincidence regarding the number of Priests/Disciples, the Holy Spirit coming down as FIRE, BOTH Arks, etc. Please explain how this is a "misinterpratation".

Here is ONE more that pretty much seals the deal on Mary's role as Ark of the New Covenant:
ALL of the Books of the Bible were written as long, continuous letters. Chapter and Verse were not added by the Church until the Middle Ages.

In the Book of Revelation, we see the New Ark of the Covenant in Heaven being spoken of at the very end of Chapter 11, verse 19:
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

The very next verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1):
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Verse 2 says:
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read:
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman/Ark here in Revelation 12 is Mary.
Refute THAT, please . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Sure not according to the deaf , dumb and blind.....ahhhh that would be YOU! Because Genesis 3:15 is pretty clear :
And I shall place enmity between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

THE WOMAN??? HMMM, why do you think on the cross (THE TREE) Christ said WOMAN behold your son MAN behold your MOTHER?
She is the WOMAN prophesied in Genesis, The VIRGIN Prophesied in Isaiah, The WOMAN at the TREE (CROSS) THE WOMAN symbolism of REV.12 Only the 144, 000 can learn the New Song. As I said...... just passing time.

Genesis 3:15 is not speaking about Mary. It is speaking about Eve.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Genesis 3:15 is not speaking about Mary. It is speaking about Eve.

REALLY? So Eve gave birth to Christ? Pray tell? Can't wait to here this one! Are you saying Eve came back ? And when did God put the Enmity between her and the serpent?

 

[reformed1689]

Then it should be EASY for you to prove my use of those verses wrong.
Perhaps we can take them verse by verse. I want top make this as EASY for you as possible . . .
OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)
This is an almost VERBATIM type and fulfillment.
Please explain HOW this has been "misinterpreted" . . .

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)
How has this comparison been misinterpreted. In both cases people were "leaping for joy" before the Ark/Mary.

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country if Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country if Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)
Once again, the circumstances here are IDENTICAL.
How is this a Catholic "misinterpretation"?

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)
The circumstances are once again, uncanny, to say the least.

OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).
This type and fulfillment is FAR too precise top be a mere coincidence regarding the number of Priests/Disciples, the Holy Spirit coming down as FIRE, BOTH Arks, etc. Please explain how this is a "misinterpratation".

Here is ONE more that pretty much seals the deal on Mary's role as Ark of the New Covenant:
ALL of the Books of the Bible were written as long, continuous letters. Chapter and Verse were not added by the Church until the Middle Ages.

In the Book of Revelation, we see the New Ark of the Covenant in Heaven being spoken of at the very end of Chapter 11, verse 19:
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

The very next verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1):
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Verse 2 says:
She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read:
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman/Ark here in Revelation 12 is Mary.
Refute THAT, please . . .

Again, more nonsense tying things together that are not to be tied together. This is just ridiculous Catholic poop.

 

[reformed1689]

REALLY? So Eve gave birth to Christ? Pray tell? Can't wait to here this one! Are you saying Eve came back ? And when did God put the Enmity between her and the serpent?

No, Christ was a descendant of Eve and therefore part of her seed. And there was enminty the moment this was spoken for their eyes were opened and mankind has been warring with Satan ever since. This is not rocket science and NO IT IS NOT talking about Mary.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, more nonsense tying things together that are not to be tied together. This is just ridiculous Catholic poop.

So, what you are saying is that you CAN'T refute ANY of the Scriptural points I made?