The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[reformed1689]

That doesn't cancel out James 2:24

I don't like to cut passages out of the bible like you do.

Which doesn't cancel out Ephesians 2:8-9 NOT BY WORKS

 

[Marymog]

Eph 2:10; Titus 2:14...to start.

Or this woman...
Luke 7:50
50 And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Doesn't cancel out James 2:24....stop cutting out passages from the bible you don't like.

 

[Marymog]

Which doesn't cancel out Ephesians 2:8-9 NOT BY WORKS

Doesn't cancel out James 2:24.

Stop cutting out passages from the bible you don't like.

The ONLY passage in the bible that has "faith alone" next to each other is James 2:24.

 

[Marymog]

Scripture does say actually. HE DIED. He had no opportunity to do anything. HE DIED. So obviously it was by grace alone through faith alone.

You have NO idea what kind of person he was BEFORE he died and Scripture doesn't tell us. He was a thief. He sinned. But that does not mean he didn't do good things during his life also.

 

[Marymog]

We do works BECAUSE of our faith. Let me ask you this, what work did the thief on the cross do to obtain his salvation?

If faith alone saves us then why do works?

YOU WROTE: "faith PRODUCES works" sooooooo would you like to take that back or can we finally agree they are, as I said before, two side of the same coin: you can't have one without the other.

Faith=works

 

[reformed1689]

If faith alone saves us then why do works?

YOU WROTE: "faith PRODUCES works" sooooooo would you like to take that back or can we finally agree they are, as I said before, two side of the same coin: you can't have one without the other.

Faith=works

Faith producing works does not make faith the same thing as works. That's absurd.

I produce saliva, does that make me saliva?

 

[reformed1689]

You have NO idea what kind of person he was BEFORE he died and Scripture doesn't tell us. He was a thief. He sinned. But that does not mean he didn't do good things during his life also.

What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Nothing.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Scripture does say actually. HE DIED. He had no opportunity to do anything. HE DIED. So obviously it was by grace alone through faith alone.

He did do something. He believed in Christ at His last hour. Christ was not walking on water or healing the sick nor was He keeping Himself from the cross. The thief believed what he probably heard in prison and all the talk and murmurs of this Messiah. Christ was the suffering servant when he met Him and that thief still believed! That is a great faith accompanied by the WORK of asking "remember me when you come into your kingdom"That got Him baptized by the Word Himself with promise of access into the kingdom of heaven- PARADISE. So he did do something he believed with no PROOF but based on the murmurs of what he heard. Not even Thomas had such faith. It is one thing to put faith when one sees a man walk on water or raising the dead. But to put faith in a man who is being crucified! That thief was MORE than justified, he was a believer in the WORD!

 

[reformed1689]

Doesn't cancel out James 2:24.

Stop cutting out passages from the bible you don't like.

The ONLY passage in the bible that has "faith alone" next to each other is James 2:24.

So you accuse me of cutting out a passage when you cut out Ephesians 2:8-9? A little hypocritical don't you think? Besides, I don't cut out James 2:24. I look at it in context.

 

[reformed1689]

Doesn't cancel out James 2:24....stop cutting out passages from the bible you don't like.

You mean like you ignore Ephesians 2:8-9?

 

[Marymog]

Faith producing works does not make faith the same thing as works. That's absurd.

I produce saliva, does that make me saliva?

Never said faith was the same as works. I will say it again and repeat Scripture: Faith without works is DEAD.

 

[reformed1689]

Never said faith was the same as works. I will say it again and repeat Scripture: Faith without works is DEAD.

Yeah actually you did. And to prove it, here is the quote:

Faith=works

Last I checked, if something equals something that means it is the same thing.

 

[Nondenom40]

That doesn't cancel out James 2:24

I don't like to cut passages out of the bible like you do.

You asked a question and I answered but you don't like that verse do you? As a believer we do works because as a new creation we are compelled to do good works. Like an apple tree is compelled to produce apples.

 

[Marymog]

So you accuse me of cutting out a passage when you cut out Ephesians 2:8-9? A little hypocritical don't you think? Besides, I don't cut out James 2:24. I look at it in context.

I never cut out Ephesian's and have previously said we are saved by grace. I agree with ALL of Scripture. YOU DON'T.

We are saved by the grace of God and our faith leads us to baptism and works......Just like Scripture says.

How can you look at it in context and then disagree with it????

 

[CovenantPromise]

Faith producing works does not make faith the same thing as works. That's absurd.

I produce saliva, does that make me saliva?

What???

 

[Marymog]

Yeah actually you did. And to prove it, here is the quote:

Last I checked, if something equals something that means it is the same thing.

I see what your saying. I shall clarify.

Faith is a belief. You have to work (read/research Scripture to see if it is true) to obtain faith. It just isn't given to you. Even after you have faith (belief) you still have to work on that belief (possibly by defending your belief) otherwise you could loose faith. I'm making you work for your belief.

Works is an action. We do the works because we have FAITH in what we believe.

 

[Marymog]

Yeah actually you did. And to prove it, here is the quote:

Last I checked, if something equals something that means it is the same thing.

Are you going to keep dodgeing or answer my question:

As a Christian do you do works? If so, WHY?

 

[Marymog]

You asked a question and I answered but you don't like that verse do you? As a believer we do works because as a new creation we are compelled to do good works. Like an apple tree is compelled to produce apples.

If we are compelled to do works then we don't need faith.....we would just do the works.

Cut James 2:24 out of the bible.....that's your problem...not mine. I believe all of Scripture: Faith without works is DEAD.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You continue to repeat the same thing offering no proof other than your bolded opinion. I've talked about this about a week ago to someone else and it wasn't addressed, thats fine. So, can you cite a reputable lexical source that agrees with you? In Luke 1:28 the angel says she was favored. In verse 30 he reiterates and says....wait for it....wait for it.....shes favored!
Kecharitomene or charitoo does not mean sinless as Dave has said, it simply means favored. Regardless if its a past perfect it has nothing to do with sinlessness. Now there is a term in the greek n.t. for full of grace, and its not this word and it never occurs in Luke and its never spoken of regarding mary.

There is no inverse relationship between sin and grace. In fact its just the opposite;

Romans 5:20
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

When sin goes up, so does grace. In your world where grace goes up, sin goes down. Scripture is against this idea of marys ic. I can list numerous verses where Jesus is specifically, clearly and plainly called sinless. Where is the equally clear verse regarding mary? There isn't one.

All youre doing is one big appeal to emotion because the idea is completely baseless and has zero foundation in Gods word.

WRONG.

Apparently, you haven’t been paying attention to the conversation.

I have cited TWO NON-CATHOLIC scholarly sources for the definition of “Kecharitomene”.
And your entire ”full of grace” argument goes right OUT the window because I never claimed that this is the definition.
Kecharitomene is defined as completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace. It is a perfect participle that indicates a PAST event with a PERMANENT result.

When Jerome translated it into Latin – the closet thin he could find was “Gratia Plena” – Full of Grace.
However – this is NOT accurate because it is FAR more than just “full” of grace. He could HARDLY translate it literally as:
“Hail, completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace, indicating a past event with a permanent result!”
Instead, it was translated to “Hail, full of grace!”
Later, “Hail, favored one!”

It has lost a LOT in translation . . .

PS - I noticed that ALL of you are still ignoring post #1213, where Mary is shown to b the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

[Marymog]

What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Nothing.

Well, you said (and I quote): He had no opportunity to do anything.

You don't know what he did before he died since Scripture doesn't tell us. He could have been a really good person. A recent convert to Christianity. Maybe he just made that one bad mistake in his life: stealing. Sooooo how can you say he had no opportunity to do anything? Now you are ADDING to Scripture.