The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[reformed1689]

FALSE.

Gen 6
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Glory to God,
Taken

Um, this doesn't go against what @BreadOfLife said. That verse does not say the Lord found grace in Noah, it says Noah found grace in the Lord.

 

[CovenantPromise]

2 Thess. 2:15 is from Paul - a MAN writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
He EQUATES Oral Tradition with Scripture.

NOT much more I can add to that . . .

Okay BOL now let me educate YOU! Oral tradition as is scripture, is given by the Holy Spirit. I simply said , to know if a person speaks in the Tradition of the apostles which is IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, we have the scriptures to test that. God's word's are FLAWLESS spoken or written .And like gold and silver refined sevenfold God proves His own words to you. Hence why the Psalms 12:6 states what it does. Refinement is proving its worth. It must be present in the FOUNDATION that the fold is built upon - upheld by the scriptures. Otherwise, anything can be passed as ORAL Tradition. Just like the Edom Jew of Christ time try to pass off the Talmud as Oral Tradition. Yet Christ is clear , if they were children of Abraham they would know Christ. Just as some men of the Catholic assembly say they speak in the Tradition of the 24 Elders but if they did , their words would be found and upheld in the foundation . I am NOT denying Oral Tradition in this sense:
1.
the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

When it is the TRUTH, it must be according to the Traditions established by God through His Holy Spirit.

But I do deny Tradition NOT supported by the written word like this belief you have:
Theology
a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures.

• THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE!
• Scripture is a written Law of our practice.
• The danger of not having a measure in which to measure with, means that a Standard is not given.

It is like any Laws on the books, if men have not a Standard in which to measure then anything can be passed as authority. That spoken Word or decree must stand upon the foundation in order to be accepted. That standard can NEVER be bi-passed . That is just how it is. And in the case of the written words of God, they cannot be amended because they are flawless. Period. Why ? Psalms 12:6
6The words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace, like gold purified sevenfold. 7You, O LORD, will keep us; You will forever guard us from this generation.…

It is to guard the faithful from evil men in their generations. PERIOD!

2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

Where is the shield if we are to just accept everything a man says with the Title of "Christian" but inwardly are simply ravenous wolves? The scriptures are our shield.
2Tim. 3 Verses 16 to 17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy is pretty clear. Any one not speaking that, is not speaking the Oral tradition!
Psalm 18:30
As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

Psalm 19:8
The precepts of the LORD are right, bringing joy to the heart; the commandments of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes.
Do you know what precepts are?
pre·cept
/ˈprēˌsept/

Learn to pronounce

noun
plural noun: precepts
1.
a general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought.

THEY ARE WRITTEN! How can that be, if what you imply is true? If ,Oral decree can not be tested because you or anyone wants to say it is Oral tradition passed down due to position of authority- because of where one sits or when it was established, how is their surety in that? If that supposed "Oral Tradition" can not be confirmed by the written precepts passed down to us by those of the foundation, how is it in the Traditions given us by the Word of God ?You must see the danger in that? You must know something in the least, about the kingdoms of men to get some understanding concerning the Kingdom of God which surpasses them all because it is perfect? God's written precepts are for protection, that the House of God be not deceived by infiltrators . Those like myself are the house of God.

Matthew 7:
A Tree and its Fruit
15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Romans 16:
17Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice over you. But I want you to be wise about what is good and innocent about what is evil. 20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

And no matter what you say BOL even the Oral tradition you profess to uphold you learned it through the WRITTEN WORD! You cannot escape what I am saying. " Catch us those little foxes". I am doing just that! The scriptures are the source by which we know God' precepts.
Psalm 19:10
They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb.

Psalm 79:12
Pay back into the laps of our neighbors sevenfold the reproach they hurled at You, O Lord.
Do not reject the written precepts and code of conduct from God. And greater yet, you hypocritically deny, even what you preach comes from the same written Word you claim has NOTHING to do with Oral Tradition , go figure??? As I said you would know NOTHING about even Oral Tradition without it. IRONIC isn't it?How you only know about it from the written word, then dis it as though you are in the Oral Tradition???
Psalm 119:140
Your promise is completely pure; therefore Your servant loves it.

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"FULLY HUMAN".... Where is that teaching? In some corrupt modern 1970's literature that turns the TRUTH into a LIE? Pfft.

Heb 2:
[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He was NOT MADE "FULLY HUMAN".
He was made "LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN".

Seriously, You do not KNOW...His BRETHREN were "JEWS"!!

He was LIKE JEWS in all things...
Looks, Traditions, Customs, Dress, Behaviors,
Worshiping God, Rabbi, etc.

He came to make reconciliation for sins....
OF "THE PEOPLE"....JEWS and GENTILES collectively.

Sheesh!

Glory to God,
Taken

And YOUR tragic follow is that you actually believe that the NT was written in Old English and not Greek.
Here is some PROTESTANT scholarship on the humanity of Jesus.

Ellicott’s Commentary
And so our Lord’s bitter suffering, diffused through life and concentrated on the Cross, WAS NO MERE NECESSARY RESULT OF HIS HUMANITY, was not simply borne because, being a Teacher, He must stand to His principles whatever befell Him because of them; but it was a direct result of the purpose He had in view, that purpose being our redemption.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
His sufferings were by way of punishment, and were attended with wrath, and were meritorious, which cannot be said of theirs; BUT THAT HE SHOULD HAVE AN HUMAN NATURE, as to its essence and perfection, like to theirs, was necessary: it was proper he should be truly and really man, as well as truly God.

Meyer's NT Commentary
HE HAD ASSUMED A TRULY HUMAN NATURE; He was distinguished from them, however, by His absolute sinlessness. Comp.

Calvin's Commentary on the Bible
In Christ’s HUMAN NATURE there are two things to be considered, the real flesh and the affections or feelings. The Apostle then teaches us, that he had not only put on the real flesh of man, but also all those feelings which belong to man, and he also shows the benefit that hence proceeds; and it is the true teaching of faith when we in our case find the reason why the Son of God undertook our infirmities; for all knowledge without feeling the need of this benefit is cold and lifeless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay BOL now let me educate YOU! Oral tradition as is scripture, is given by the Holy Spirit. I simply said , to know if a person speaks in the Tradition of the apostles which is IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, we have the scriptures to test that. God's word's are FLAWLESS spoken or written .And like gold and silver refined sevenfold God proves His own words to you. Hence why the Psalms 12:6 states what it does. Refinement is proving its worth. It must be present in the FOUNDATION that the fold is built upon - upheld by the scriptures. Otherwise, anything can be passed as ORAL Tradition. Just like the Edom Jew of Christ time try to pass off the Talmud as Oral Tradition. Yet Christ is clear , if they were children of Abraham they would know Christ. Just as some men of the Catholic assembly say they speak in the Tradition of the 24 Elders but if they did , their words would be found and upheld in the foundation . I am NOT denying Oral Tradition in this sense:
1.
the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

When it is the TRUTH, it must be according to the Traditions established by God through His Holy Spirit.

But I do deny Tradition NOT supported by the written word like this belief you have:
Theology
a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures.

• THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE!
• Scripture is a written Law of our practice.
• The danger of not having a measure in which to measure with, means that a Standard is not given.

It is like any Laws on the books, if men have not a Standard in which to measure then anything can be passed as authority. That spoken Word or decree must stand upon the foundation in order to be accepted. That standard can NEVER be bi-passed . That is just how it is. And in the case of the written words of God, they cannot be amended because they are flawless. Period. Why ? Psalms 12:6
6The words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace, like gold purified sevenfold. 7You, O LORD, will keep us; You will forever guard us from this generation.…

It is to guard the faithful from evil men in their generations. PERIOD!

2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

Where is the shield if we are to just accept everything a man says with the Title of "Christian" but inwardly are simply ravenous wolves? The scriptures are our shield.
2Tim. 3 Verses 16 to 17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy is pretty clear. Any one not speaking that, is not speaking the Oral tradition!
Psalm 18:30
As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

Psalm 19:8
The precepts of the LORD are right, bringing joy to the heart; the commandments of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes.
Do you know what precepts are?
pre·cept
/ˈprēˌsept/

Learn to pronounce

noun
plural noun: precepts
1.
a general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought.

THEY ARE WRITTEN! How can that be, if what you imply is true? If ,Oral decree can not be tested because you or anyone wants to say it is Oral tradition passed down due to position of authority- because of where one sits or when it was established, how is their surety in that? If that supposed "Oral Tradition" can not be confirmed by the written precepts passed down to us by those of the foundation, how is it in the Traditions given us by the Word of God ?You must see the danger in that? You must know something in the least, about the kingdoms of men to get some understanding concerning the Kingdom of God which surpasses them all because it is perfect? God's written precepts are for protection, that the House of God be not deceived by infiltrators . Those like myself are the house of God.

Matthew 7:
A Tree and its Fruit
15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Romans 16:
17Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice over you. But I want you to be wise about what is good and innocent about what is evil. 20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

And no matter what you say BOL even the Oral tradition you profess to uphold you learned it through the WRITTEN WORD! You cannot escape what I am saying. " Catch us those little foxes". I am doing just that! The scriptures are the source by which we know God' precepts.
Psalm 19:10
They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb.

Psalm 79:12
Pay back into the laps of our neighbors sevenfold the reproach they hurled at You, O Lord.
Do not reject the written precepts and code of conduct from God. And greater yet, you hypocritically deny, even what you preach comes from the same written Word you claim has NOTHING to do with Oral Tradition , go figure??? As I said you would know NOTHING about even Oral Tradition without it. IRONIC isn't it?How you only know about it from the written word, then dis it as though you are in the Oral Tradition???
Psalm 119:140
Your promise is completely pure; therefore Your servant loves it.

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Your entire argument just circled the drain as soon as I came to the text above in RED.

NOWHERE does Scripture make this claim about itself. Sola Scriptura is a man-made 16th century invention that is NOT supported by the very Scriptures it purports to hold as the "Sole Authority".

We read in Scripture that Jesus did MANY things that aren't written down because the world could not hold the books if they HAD been written (John 21:25).

 

[CovenantPromise]

Your entire argument just circled the drain as soon as I came to the text above in RED.

NOWHERE does Scripture make this claim about itself. Sola Scriptura is a man-made 16th century invention that is NOT supported by the very Scriptures it purports to hold as the "Sole Authority".

We read in Scripture that Jesus did MANY things that aren't written down because the world could not hold the books if they HAD been written (John 21:25).

2Tim. 3 Verses 16 to 17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy is pretty clear. Any one not speaking that, is not speaking the Oral tradition!

We read in Scripture that Jesus did MANY things that aren't written down because the world could not hold the books if they HAD been written (John 21:25).[/QUOTE]

Really ?And why do you not know what those things are? And how did you find out that? Did you read it? Oh , and would those things contradict what is written for you to know? Are you calling Christ a hypocrite? Are you saying that a different spirit wrote the scriptures and Christ worked in a different spirit, when He did the works not recorded ? Your point? you are still quoting from the scriptures alone aren't you? Hmm?

 

[CovenantPromise]

Carry on BOL.......why don't you speak outside of the precepts of Christ, and just tell everyone , THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU SAID SO IT IS FROM GOD. YEAH RIGHT ! Be concerned when men are derailed and want to take everyone with them. OH MIGHTY BOL, no one need test or question, we need no proof! You are a Great prophet! You will probably get a billion followers, after all Muhammad did! Oh, but you are part of those who sit as a
queen and will never know mourning! YEAH RIGHT! Christ's has your number!

"Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, `I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.' Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine."

 

[CovenantPromise]

It would seem that the longer our dialogue goes on your position becomes more and more clear. You will go from lukewarm to what now?

 

[CovenantPromise]

So it would seem we have Protestants in here who are for Sola Scriptura, scripture alone. But all proof with scripture they deny because it does not fit their narrative about the Mother of Christ . They deny actually what the Lord has said and done for her.
The Lord has your number too!
Matthew 15:7-8
Tradition and Worship
…7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you: 8‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. 9They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’”…

And we have Catholics who think they sit a queen and will never know mourning. They lavish any liberty on themselves which includes foregoing the scriptures just to make themselves sound right.

The funny thing is, none of you can even see how you all have been played by satan. He is smarter than you average Joes but not Wiser than the Elect who get it!

So, keep fighting amongst yourselves "Sola Scriptura" and all "Oral Tradition" must align for a House divided CAN NOT STAND, such as you people!

 

[Taken]

You might want to research how the word came about.

Men who did not believe called men following after Jesus' teachings....Christians.

So, why doesn't someone tell all the little Children going to Church who have not been Converted that they are little liars calling themselves Christians?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

Men who did not believe called men following after Jesus' teachings....Christians.

No, they called the DISCIPLES Christians. These were men who were already converted, not just merely people following Jesus' teachings. (Acts 11:26)

So, why doesn't someone tell all the little Children going to Church who have not been Converted that they are little liars calling themselves Christians?

If you don't explain what a Christian is and what a Christian is not you are lying to them if you say they are Christian.

 

[Ezra]

Did you have somebody ELSE in mind??

yes i do you need to get saved get the catholic religion blinders off your eyes . as usual you cant even give a adult like reply . lets face it your out numbered your wrong, and you sure dont have a clue . i did expect a better defense but as usual you folded

 

[Ezra]

On anybody he wants - PERIOD.
Exod. 33:19
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

wait that is calvinism doctrine

 

[Ezra]

Disagree. It is not about CLASS, but what one is following and learning.

Have you never heard a person claim...they USED to be Christian? Following, believing, even repeating what they heard....and then one day QUIT? They were Christians...BUT not Converted.

Many attend Christian Churches and have not Converted...
Many Sundays people who have attended the Same Church for years, Surrender their lives to God Before the witnesses of the Congregation....
Would you congradulate them and say....Good for you, you are finally a Christian?
It is Jesus' teaching that identify the Saved and Born Again and Converted....with NO mention of the word Christian.
the Word Christian does not mean a Saved and Born Again person, any more than BOL's teaching a supposed Title Word means Mary was Sinless

Glory to God,
Taken

for once you spoke a truth , except Mary was Sinless ...false wrong no scripture to prove it

 

[CovenantPromise]

for once you spoke a truth , except Mary was Sinless ...false wrong no scripture to prove it

Okay then how about this one......DID SHE END UP SINLESS?

 

[CovenantPromise]

1 John 3:7
Children of God
…6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him (Did she see and know HIM?). 7Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8The one who practices sin is of the devil(WAS SHE OF THE DEVIL?), because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed( WAS HE NOT ONLY REVEALED TO HER BUT TO US BY HER FLESH?), to destroy the works of the devil.

To whom was He revealed first?
So, in whom was sin destroyed first that all else would follow? If He came to destroy sin how can sin be present with Him in her when He destroys it in all, for the purpose of setting up His righteousness?

1 Peter 1:23
23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Everyone knows that every seed concerning birth is a conception .Is this SEED an Immaculate Conception? If it is imperishable, what does that mean? Who was first Conceived of this SEED? And then, who not only was conceived of that IMPERISHABLE seed, as all would be after moving forward, but literally conceived IMMACULATELY in her womb the imperishable SEED (THE WORD) who took her Immaculately Conceived flesh (He purified, when the power of the Most High overshadowed her) ,as His own? I mean she would have to be right?

What I find funny is no one would argue against the fact that God showed His presents with a wooden gold inlaid ark. Ask anyone they would say it's presents represented God with men. But Her , with a CERTAIN TYPE NO WAY??? Strange! No one would call the OC ark stained or an unholy relic- if it were still here anyways. But Christ's mother who carried in her body the Living Breathing Word , PUH! no way. Really?

Let's get real people!

 

[Ezra]

Okay then how about this one......DID SHE END UP SINLESS?

what does 2nd corinthian 5:17 state and verse 21

 

[CovenantPromise]

She was Immaculately conceived by the imperishable seed and born again through Him, "my soul magnifies the Lord"1Peter1:22Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart.
Her soul is purified and therefore radiates the Light of God , MAGNIFICATION - "And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior" The spirit is our conscious awareness which flows through us. it is the mind, not flesh but the spirit which is energy which flows through the chambers of the brain. She grew step by step in her Immaculate Conception walking with Christ, like Christ everywhere, every step of the way ,she followed Him. Where He was she was right by His side.She did not falter in her new birth and grew to Full restoration by pondering all things in her heart . She remained Immaculate from beginning to end! At which point Christ put on her , her immortality, her imperishable flesh, SHE IS EVER VIRGIN at her assumption into heaven when Christ ascended to His rest. And She who followed Him everywhere He went , was too taken to heaven with Him.

Psalms 132:7-8

…7Let us go to His dwelling place; let us worship at His footstool. 8Arise, O LORD, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. 9May Your priests be clothed with righteousness, and Your saints shout for joy.…

 

[CovenantPromise]

what does 2nd corinthian 5:17 state and verse 21

Yes and? I understand those verses. You usually have more to say about other things. How about you publicly elaborate on your thoughts about those verses ?Not that I am EVER at a loss for words , LOL! Just would like to read your thoughts.

 

[Taken]

Um, this doesn't go against what @BreadOfLife said. That verse does not say the Lord found grace in Noah, it says Noah found grace in the Lord.

In ... the Lords Eyes. When the Lord observed Noah, the Lord found Grace In Noah.

Pleasing to the Lord...since when the Lord observed the rest of the people...the Lord saw....?

Gen 6
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Prov 3
[4] So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

Noah was a godly man when the whole world was ignoring and rejecting God.

Gods Grace toward Noah was to provide Noah with instructions on how to be Lifted UP off the face of the earth, because God was going to destroy every living thing upon the face of the earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

Yes and? I understand those verses. You usually have more to say about other things. How about you publicly elaborate on your thoughts about those verses ?Not that I am EVER at a loss for words , LOL! Just would like to read your thoughts.

lol with a remark like that i will gladly enter into discussion on most subjects . what i will not reply to is a taunt !
Proverbs 26:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.