The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

I've never claimed to be a calvinist. I never brought up limited atonement. I responded to your whacked idea that all the earth is redeemed, with scripture. And your response is a rant against calvinism?? Too funny. Instead of hurling insults how about simply addressing the issues?

I didn't say you were a Calvinist. I said you were espousing a Calvinist tenet (Limited Atonement) - the idea that Christ only side for some but NOT all. Christ died for EVERYBODY and redeemed (paid for) them,

A. You didn't give a definition, you gave your opinion, which is quite wrong.
B. Paul in Col 2 was not speaking of the entire human race.
C. Context isn't the friend of catholics.

WRONG.
Paul is speaking specifically to Colossian Christians - but the context involved EVERYBODY because he is talking about what Jesus did to the power that SIN had.

You just destroyed your own argument. Thanks. If redemption meant ALL are purchased then all the verses you just quoted would be moot because ALL would be in heaven. Do a word study before you come out here and embarrass yourself with the obvious lack of knowledge you presume to have. Writing in BOLD CAPS is no substitute for learning.

This goes back to you total confusion of Redemption vs Salvation.

Christ paid the debt for EVERY person who ever lived. THIS is the context of 1 Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16 and Mark 10:45.
NOT every person chooses to follow Him. THIS is the context of verses like the following:
Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

 

[BreadOfLife]

how is it not ? you alone are the BIGGEST HERETIC in this forum . your bread is the same as the leaven of the pharisees .. your doctrine is so far out there.i have doubts you ever seeing home plate

Gee - another non-answer.
What a surprise . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

SHE HAS/HAD no other role other than being the mother of Jesus quit worshiping her { It is explicitly taught by Scripture that Mary gave birth to the New Covenant, Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant – the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant. Here is a Scriptural comparison of the Type and Fulfillment between the Old Ark and the New Ark:} gessh i have never read so much garbage in these scriptures i will PROVE YOUR ERROR
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. YOU BEEN EXPOSED by the Light of the word straw man stay away from the fire

Sooooooo, where's the proof??
Christ is the embodiment of the New Covenant.

Did you have somebody ELSE in mind??

 

[BreadOfLife]

And I provided scholarly evidence that rejects your position. There is more that rejects your position than affirms it. And none of your sources were well-known reputable sources.

An\other LIE.

H.W. Smyth was one of the most revered authorities in ancient Greek language.
He was a professor of ancient Greek at Harvard University.
He taught Ancient Greek in Athens Greece for 15 years.
He wrote EIGHT textbooks on the subject.

Your rejections of my scholarly evidence are just cowardly denials . . .

You have shown me what they claim but now actual scriptural linguistic or historical basis.

Your constant LIES are well-documented.
Here it is AGAIN for the FOURTH time . . .

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)


There is no question of a "secondary" reality, one that would have touched her only ulteriorly. Rather, it pertains to the very identity of Mary. Moreover, the appellation κεχαριτωμένη, in all of Scripture, is reserved to Mary, as if it were her special mark. In fact, some have tried to see in the parallel with Gideon, a demonstration that the κεχαριτωμένη would refer only to a grace that is to come, one to follow immediately. For Gideon is called "valiant warrior" at a time when he is not yet such; therefore κεχαριτωμένη would signify a grace that is not present before the angel's greeting. However, as contrasted with what concerns Gideon, the angel does not apply to Mary a noun bracketed with an adjective, but a perfect participle, a verbal form that refers to a past that is prolonged in the present. Therefore, it is before the angel's greeting, before the Incarnation, that Mary is κεχαριτωμένη. (Kecharitomene (Lk. 1:28) in the Light of Gen. 18:16-33: A Matter of Quantity François Rossier University of Dayton)


Kecharitōmĕnē is the perfect passive participle of charitŏō. It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action. (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b.)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now you make up things. Never questioned Thessalonians only you and worldly men!

2 Thess. 2:15 is from Paul - a MAN writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
He EQUATES Oral Tradition with Scripture.

NOT much more I can add to that . . .

 

[Taken]

Jesus DID live a perfect life - and He IS human AND God.

You have been shown DOZENS of verses that sink your heretical Docetist argument - but you persist in your heresy.
That's on YOU . . .

You have shown numerous Scriptures; But NONE say Jesus IS an earthy (human) man.

I have shown you Scriptures that Say:
The Lord Jesus Came down from Heaven.
HUMAN earthy men come from out of the Earth.

The TRUTH is not complicated.
Your rejection is noted, and has zero affect on me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

H.W. Smyth was one of the most revered authorities in ancient Greek language.

Yes, and he is the one source that you listed that DOES NOT agree with your crazy definition of the word. He has it right that she is favored by God. It does not say sinless. You have yet to meet that burden of proof.

 

[BreadOfLife]

When you observe from the Facts...
1) God Observes mankind.
2) God Finds Grace in mankind.
3) God Favors those who follow Him.
4) God has Angel Messengers.
5) God sends His Messengers to Inform people of a Paticular mission God wants the person to accomplish.
6) The Messenger, reports to the person, that God has recognized them, of Their following, of His favor, and BY His Grace has Blessings, to Bestow Upon them, should they Agree to accomplish His Task.
7) Also, that the Lord WILL be with Them, to Accomplish the Task.

Others, BEFORE Mary, were Approached; Notified of God having Observed them, Notified of a Task God desires accomplished,
Notified the Lord would be With them.
Notified they would Be Blessed By and through the Lords Grace upon them.

You Attempt to DEFINE "the MOMENT" that the Lord Bestowed His Favor and Grace and Blessing UPON Mary.

You perpetuate that Gods Favor and Grace was UPON Mary, at her NATURAL Birth.

You Further perpetuate that Gods Favor and Grace MEANS, Giving the person the Gift of Salvation resulting IN "that person having been Given SINLESSNESS while ALIVE in their Natural BODY".

Nothing IN Scripture reveals, THAT Natural Born humans, ARE Naturally Born...
With a Saved soul,
With a Quickened spirit,
Or Without sin.

Scripture Reveals:
ALL humans are naturally BORN "IN" SiN.
ALL humans require A DEATH, BEFORE a posibility of "SINLESSNESS" of their BODY can be realized.

Scripture has BEEN Revealing from the Beginning of mankind....
1) HOW mankind can BECOME in Gods Favor
2) HOW mankind can BECOME in Gods Grace
3) HOW mankind can BECOME Blessed.
4) HOW mankind can Accomplish things (according to His desires) FOR the Lord God.

Scripture has BEEN Revealing FOR 2,000+ years...
1) That men CAN be Forgiven for disbelief.
2) That men CAN (satisfy Gods Requirement of a mans Bodily Death) and GIVE their Body's unto DEATH, (while remaining alive in their Body).
3) That men CAN receive Gods Gift of a Restored (saved) soul.
4) That men CAN receive Gods Gift of a Quickened spirit (IN their Heart), WiTH His SEED.

Scripture reveals...
1) THAT ^ teaching was TAUGHT BY Jesus.
2) And Forward taught to men BY Jesus' chosen Disciples.
3) THAT....
WHILE the TEACHING IS TRUE...

THE "EFFECTS" and "COMING to PASS"...
OF the PROMISE...--->
Would NOT OCCUR...---->

UNTIL JESUS LEFT the Earth.

And THE "EFFECTS" and "COMING TO PASS"..."OF" "FRUITION"...--->
Would NOT OCCUR...

UNTIL JESUS once Again "LEFT HEAVEN".

Greek interpretation of Scripture revealed Godly men Recognized God having Chosen Mary for a VERY SPECIAL Task...(Just as men Recognized Others (ie Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Disciples, Paul, and others )
OF Mary's Gift of Gods Favor Upon Mary, of Gods Grace Upon Mary, of Gods Blessings Upon, of God being WITH her...

But STILL...NO man Received the "INDWELLING" Spirit UNTIL Jesus "LEFT" the Earth.

And...NO earthly person's BODY has been "RAISED" UP in Glory...WHICH "WILL BE" the DAY WHEN...Coming to pass...

THAT...the individual earthly man's BODY IS come to pass and ACCOMPLISHED...sinless.

You teaching That was accomplished in Mary, at her Natural Birth, IS NOT TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE.

You CAN BELIEVE IT...but it doesn't MAKE it TRUE.

It is Clear, by your own Admission...You were Taught Catholicism, By Catholics, from a VERY Young Age...and Your teaching IS Catholic Doctrine....that You Claim, your Church Leaders HAVE the Authority to Dictate.

Sure THEY DO...it is "THEIR" established Church. Just like every other Church "MEN" establish, they too Dictate their own Standards of Beliefs.

The KEY ito Establishing Churches, IS THAT THEY stay within the Confines and Limits of Jesus' Doctrine.

Not ONCE DID Jesus Teach, or Jesus' Chosen Jewish Disciples Teach...
Mary or Any other Human, IS Sinless.

Glory to God,
Taken

First of all - God doesn't "find" grace in ANYBODY.
He BESTOWS grace. And He bestows it on ANYBODY in ANY WAY He wants.

 

[reformed1689]

And He bestows it on ANYBODY in ANY WAY He wants.

Point of discussion, this is not exactly true. He bestows it on anybody in any way he wants ACCORDING to his nature.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have shown numerous Scriptures; But NONE say Jesus IS an earthy (human) man.

I have shown you Scriptures that Say:
The Lord Jesus Came down from Heaven.
HUMAN earthy men come from out of the Earth.

The TRUTH is not complicated.
Your rejection is noted, and has zero affect on me.

Glory to God,
Taken

Take it up with God . . .

Heb. 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

 

[Taken]

WRONG.
A person who simply goes to church and doesn't surrender to Christ is a pew-filler and nothing more.

LOL - far out and nothing more than your opinion that goes against Scriptural Teaching.

Just told you...humans are born in Sin.
They Begin learning About the Lord God, By hearing.

A person must Learn WHAT they MIGHT COMMIT to BEFORE they COMMIT...DUH!

A person following After Christ's Teachings IS Called A Christ Follower i.e...A Christian.

They are NOT JUST a pew-filler....
They are Learning and Being ENLIGHTENED, By the Holy Spirit, By Hearing The Word of God! DUH!

IF they CONTINUE Hearing, they CONTINUE being Enlightened.

It is a persons TIME to BECOME PREPARED IN Gods TRUTH....That they may ELECT to SUBMIT their LIFE to the Lord God...

And thereafter, they are CALLED "CONVERTED".

IF they CHOOSE to CONTINUE to call themselves A CHRISTIAN, it would be CORRECT for them to CALL themseleves;
A SAVED and BORN AGAIN Christian.

Your response speaks VOLUMES about your bizarre beliefs, though . . .

Your posts speaks volumes of how Ignorant you are of Spiritual Truths.

And it is of NO SURPRISE this is FOREIGN to you, SINCE you were TAUGHT, and you Proclaimed....you became "BORN AGAIN", without yourself choosing to Surrender your life to the Lord God, or you yourself even being AWARE of someone supposedly doing that FOR you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

LOL - far out and nothing more than your opinion that goes against Scriptural Teaching.

Just told you...humans are born in Sin.
They Begin learning About the Lord God, By hearing.

A person must Learn WHAT they MIGHT COMMIT to BEFORE they COMMIT...DUH!

A person following After Christ's Teachings IS Called A Christ Follower i.e...A Christian.

They are NOT JUST a pew-filler....
They are Learning and Being ENLIGHTENED, By the Holy Spirit, By Hearing The Word of God! DUH!

IF they CONTINUE Hearing, they CONTINUE being Enlightened.

It is a persons TIME to BECOME PREPARED IN Gods TRUTH....That they may ELECT to SUBMIT their LIFE to the Lord God...

And thereafter, they are CALLED "CONVERTED".

IF they CHOOSE to CONTINUE to call themselves A CHRISTIAN, it would be CORRECT for them to CALL themseleves;
A SAVED and BORN AGAIN Christian.



Your posts speaks volumes of how Ignorant you are of Spiritual Truths.

And it is of NO SURPRISE this is FOREIGN to you, SINCE you were TAUGHT, and you Proclaimed....you became "BORN AGAIN", without yourself choosing to Surrender your life to the Lord God, or you yourself even being AWARE of someone supposedly doing that FOR you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Actually there is no such thing as an unconverted Christian. You are either a Christian or you are not. There are no "classes" of Christian.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Point of discussion, this is not exactly true. He bestows it on anybody in any way he wants ACCORDING to his nature.

On anybody he wants - PERIOD.
Exod. 33:19
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

[reformed1689]

On anybody he wants - PERIOD.
Exod. 33:19
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Yes, but that still doesn't make Mary sinless.

 

[Taken]

Take it up with God . . .

Heb. 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

"FULLY HUMAN".... Where is that teaching? In some corrupt modern 1970's literature that turns the TRUTH into a LIE? Pfft.

Heb 2:
[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He was NOT MADE "FULLY HUMAN".
He was made "LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN".

Seriously, You do not KNOW...His BRETHREN were "JEWS"!!

He was LIKE JEWS in all things...
Looks, Traditions, Customs, Dress, Behaviors,
Worshiping God, Rabbi, etc.

He came to make reconciliation for sins....
OF "THE PEOPLE"....JEWS and GENTILES collectively.

Sheesh!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, but that still doesn't make Mary sinless.

I didn't say it did.
We have Kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 to illustrate her sinlessness.

 

[reformed1689]

I didn't say it did.
We have Kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 to illustrate her sinlessness.

And you have not met the burden of proof that shows that is what that means. Spoiler alert, it doesn't mean that. No lexicon says it means sinless. None. It means she was favored, blessed. That's not sinless.

 

[Taken]

Actually there is no such thing as an unconverted Christian. You are either a Christian or you are not. There are no "classes" of Christian.

Disagree. It is not about CLASS, but what one is following and learning.

Have you never heard a person claim...they USED to be Christian? Following, believing, even repeating what they heard....and then one day QUIT? They were Christians...BUT not Converted.

Many attend Christian Churches and have not Converted...
Many Sundays people who have attended the Same Church for years, Surrender their lives to God Before the witnesses of the Congregation....
Would you congradulate them and say....Good for you, you are finally a Christian?
It is Jesus' teaching that identify the Saved and Born Again and Converted....with NO mention of the word Christian.
the Word Christian does not mean a Saved and Born Again person, any more than BOL's teaching a supposed Title Word means Mary was Sinless

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

They were Christians...BUT not Converted.

They were not Christian. Saying you are something doesn't make you something. I can say I am a centerfielder for the Cincinnati Reds but that doesn't make it so.

Many attend Christian Churches and have not Converted...

Agreed and they are NOT Christians.

Would you congradulate them and say....Good for you, you are finally a Christian?

YES

It is Jesus' teaching that identify the Saved and Born Again and Converted....with NO mention of the word Christian.

Irrelevant. The word had not been created yet.

the Word Christian does not mean a Saved and Born Again person, any more than BOL's teaching a supposed Title Word means Mary was Sinless

You might want to research how the word came about.

 

[Taken]

First of all - God doesn't "find" grace in ANYBODY.

FALSE.

Gen 6
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Glory to God,
Taken