The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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BreadOfLife

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First, a question can't be dishonest. That's stupid. A question is just that. And you didn't answer the question because you can't.
Your question was, "Where is that in Scripture."

I gave you a SCRIPTURAL response.

If you disagree - then refute it, bu don't sit there and LIE and say I didn't respond.
 

shnarkle

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You did not show a single scripture that even hints that infants cannot sin.
I know of only one off hand that suggests infants do sin which is the psalm that points out that we are conceived in sin. It is our natural state. We sin because we are born sinners. We are born to sin.
 
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BreadOfLife

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All have sinned. David said he was born in sin. Sin was passed to every man from Adam. This is all Scripture. And it includes infants in ALL.
That verse doesn’t say infants have sinned – any more than Matt. 2:3 means that every single person in Jerusalem was aware of the birth of Christ and was “greatly troubled”.
BOTH verses are using inclusive language – not literal language.

Besides – as I already schooled you – Psalm 14:5 talks about God being in the company of the “RIGHTEOUS”, whereas YOU claim there are “NONE” righteous because of your flawed interpretation of Rom. 3:10.

Finally – being born IN SIN does not mean that you HAVE sinned.
It simply means that you are born with the stain of the sin of Adam.
 

Berserk

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13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

As expected, Evangelicals have either ducked the basic relevant 13 philosophical questions posed at the start of this thread or offered superficial answers that avoid an in depth response because of the threat that attunement to their best moral instincts poses for their faith. Here is a brief overview of how I would begin to answer these questions. I will discuss each point in detail, if there are any honest truth seekers here who want such expanded clarifications.

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
"Yes, John implies that the righteous and unrighteous alike still retain their basic character after Jesus' Parousia: "Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy (Revelation 22:10)." If God removed the free will of carnal believers to make them fit for Heaven, (a) why does He abandon His respect for free will during our earthly sojourn and why doesn't he just give the wicked in Hell a righteous nature, so they can no longer choose the sinful way?

(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
Of course, and that fact illustrates the need for the purifying process in what Catholics call Purgatory and what Paul believes takes place in the 2nd Heaven (1 Corinthians 3:15; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4).

(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
"With the judgment you make you will be judged, and the standard ("measure") you apply will be the standard applied to you (Matthew 7:1-2)
Hell, then, is a mirror in which people get to see what it would be like to live in a world of spirits who share our selfish core desires. People there are victimized in the same way they victimize others in life. So Hell serves as an educational tool.

(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
It must be if God is Love in His essence (1 John 4:8) and if God truly wants to save everyone.

(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
Of course not! Precisely for that reason, Paul teaches the possibility of being saved, apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Romans 2:7, 10) and Jesus teaches that sinners will be judged by how they respond to whatever limited spiritual light they are able to grasp (Luke 12:47-48).

(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
Of course not!
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
Such progress is implied by Paul's location of Paradise in the 3rd of multiple Heavens and by the status of Paradise as the preferred initial point of arrival in the Heavens.

(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
Evangelicals often sever their connections with their best instincts by simplistically citing Hebrews 9:27 in reply: "It is appointed unto man once, to die and after that the judgment." To avoid making a mockery of the concept of Pure Unconditional Love, Evangelicals need to ask the obvious question, "What happens after the Judgment?" See the Scriptures cited in this post for the beginnings of an answer.

(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
Of course not. Indeed, 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6 teach that unrighteous in Hell get a chance to repent and be by implication be retrieved from Hades.
Otherwise, it would be a joke to claim that God's essence is Love and that He continues to love the unrighteous, even after their death.

(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
Evangelical scholar, C. S. Lewis, succinctly replies, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Escape from Hell depends on the choices of its denizens. Of course, C. S. Lewis grasps and accepts the biblical case for Purgatory.

(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
"Who can resist His will (Romans 9:19)?" This question implies that God remains true to His purpose and will never abandon His desire to save everyone until that glorious goal is accomplished. But He won't force them against their will; instead, God will provide continued opportunities for repentance and spiritual transformation throughout eternity. Most humans have either never heard the Gospel or, if they have, they have seen no resason to believe it. Does God still want them to ultimately respond and be saved?
"God our Savior...desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4)."
But God in His foreknowledge is ultimately only the Savior of the elect. Right? Wrong!
"The living God... is the Savior of all humanity, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)."
"Especially" just means "more immediately" and leaves open the possibility of postmortem salvation.

(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
That assumption is reasonable if God is not Pure Unconditional Love. In fact, God is and always remains Love and the New Testament implies soul retrievals from Hell several times (1 Corinthians 3:15; 15:28-29; 1 Peter 3:19; 4:6; Philippians 2:9:11; (understood in terms of its underlying OT text, the invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23); Revelation 21:15; cp. 5:9; 22:15).

(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?
Of course not. And that holy discontent is expresses in the next 2 Christian apocalypses after Revelation, the Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD) and Sibylline Oracles II, 331-335). Both texts still breathe the vision of Revelation. The first question posted by the saints upon their arrival in Heaven is, "Can our loved ones in Hell still be saved and brought here?" God's answer is an emphatic Yes! A true Christian is a person-for-others. So Heaven would be a place of torment for them, if their loved ones were absent, suffering in eternal torment.
 

reformed1689

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That verse doesn’t say infants have sinned – any more than Matt. 2:3 means that every single person in Jerusalem was aware of the birth of Christ and was “greatly troubled”.
BOTH verses are using inclusive language – not literal language.

Besides – as I already schooled you – Psalm 14:5 talks about God being in the company of the “RIGHTEOUS”, whereas YOU claim there are “NONE” righteous because of your flawed interpretation of Rom. 3:10.

Finally – being born IN SIN does not mean that you HAVE sinned.
It simply means that you are born with the stain of the sin of Adam.
You didn't school anybody. You are just showing the foolishness of the Catholic church for all to see.

You also conveniently ignored the fact that David said he was born in sin.
 
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BreadOfLife

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You didn't school anybody. You are just showing the foolishness of the Catholic church for all to see.

You also conveniently ignored the fact that David said he was born in sin.
Again with your attention deficit problem . . .

R*E*A*D my last post.
Being born IN sin does not make you guilty of having COMMITTED sin.
It simply means that David was born with the stain of Adam’s sin.

This is the doctrine of Original sin – and has ZERO to do with personal sin.

That being said – REFUTE the Scriptural argument I presented in post #1838.
Stop running . . .
 

Taken

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No, you haven't.
Show me the verse that shows he repented.

Just because you claim he did doesn't make it so. You must show the Scriptural evidence.

Repentance is between the individual and God. If you require it in writing, tell God, maybe He'll let you know what was in the Eunuch's heart!

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Again with your attention deficit problem . . .

R*E*A*D my last post.
Being born IN sin does not make you guilty of having COMMITTED sin.
It simply means that David was born with the stain of Adam’s sin.

This is the doctrine of Original sin – and has ZERO to do with personal sin.

That being said – REFUTE the Scriptural argument I presented in post #1838.
Stop running . . .

LOL.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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Repentance is between the individual and God. If you require it in writing, tell God, maybe He'll let you know what was in the Eunuch's heart!

Glory to God,
Taken
And if you're going to make claim about Scripture - make SURE it's actually there . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You guys are good a running and "LOLing" - but you stink at refuting your opponent's evidence . . .
 

Taken

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Sooooooo, let me get this straight.

You anti-Catholics constantly deny Mary’s sinlessness based on Rom. 3:10, which says:
“There is NONE righteous”.

And you anti-Protestants Made Up Mary being Sinless from her natural birth....Why?

You Don't TRUST Gods WAY is sufficient?

The Catholic position on this verse ALL along on has been that it is not talking about “everybody” because babies cannot sin.

LOL...Babies "CAN'NOT SIN"??
Boy oh boy, I thought by now the anti-Protestant catholics would have revealed all their MADE-UP claims on this forum...

Got any more?

You anti-Catholic, however, reject this idea and say that they are included because they DO sin.
NOW, you’re telling me that they can’t have faith – but they CAN sin??

I didn't tell you that.

This is the kind of contradictory nonsense that makes it so easy to SINK your arguments . . .

Of course it is contradictory nonsense, it came out of your thoughts, not mine. LOL

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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And if you're going to make claim about Scripture - make SURE it's actually there . . .

You should have learned what Jesus taught to the Disciples before Jesus sent them out to Preach... It's not complicated...well maybe for an Anti-Protestant Catholic it's too difficult, since even you omitted you skipped believing, confessing and repenting.
Hear, Believe, Confess, Repent and Be Baptized.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

reformed1689

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That being said – REFUTE the Scriptural argument I presented in post #1838.
There was nothing to refute in that post. Another question you have not answered. If Mary was sinless, which she was not and Scripture doesn't teach that she was, but if she were, why would she need a savior? What would she need to be saved from?