The Influence of Islam on Christendom

[Episkopos]

Ok . . . let's continue in the passage just a bit further . . .

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Again, this duality is clearly expressed in the Bible.

You can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again. That is the duality which you eschew.

If you are born again, yes, if not, then no.

I didn't say anything about death or hell, you are, but you are denying the duality of God's message to man, yet it's there plain as day.

Without rebirth you are shut out from God's kingdom.

Much love!

Actually not so extreme. In this life you are shut out of the kingdom without the new birth...yes. Jesus is saying that you cannot see and act in the kingdom in this life without the rebirth. But spiritual birth in this life is more than just salvation...it is to walk in the One who brings a future glory. There is a reward above and beyond just survival for they who are IN Christ. The calling is high for these. But these are NOT the totality of all who are saved. One verse does not cover all eventualities.

If a man is reborn on his deathbed he has but a little time to walk in that realm. If a man is born anew 40 years before his death then he has a long time to develop the kingdom walk. This man will be judged much harder because of the time he was given in the knowledge of the truth. This is a standard that involves much more than salvation...it involves ruling and reigning with Christ. There remains they who will be ruled over.

God's plan of salvation is for people beyond they who rule...as in...they who are ruled over ...ie... the guests to the wedding feast who are both good AND bad. No kingdom life in the here and now is expected or is relevant for these.

So you can't take one verse and make it fit over every determining situation. Neither can we determine the level of relevance in a certain dictum for every possible situation.

IOW...we can't judge. We are just NOT that all-knowing. We can only know our OWN situation...if that. I know many believers that have not even comprehended the kingdom values for their own lives...let alone for the lives of every person that ever lived.

Some humility and understanding is needed here. An avoidance of the demonic version based on totalitarianism is preferred.

 

[bbyrd009]

9/11 II coming soon to a neighborhood near you, with the influx of Mohamedans flooding the country.

911 was an inside job, almost surely, and the evidence gets more compelling every day. The Amer Soc of Civil Engineers has recently stated that the official bs about bldg 7 cannot possibly be true. Sorry, but that amts to another erroneous belief that will not stand up to light

 

[JohnPaul]

911 was an inside job, almost surely, and the evidence gets more compelling every day. The Amer Soc of Civil Engineers has recently stated that the official bs about bldg 7 cannot possibly be true. Sorry, but that amts to another erroneous belief that will not stand up to light

Do you wear a vest with explosives strapped to yourself Mohamedan?

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you wear a vest with explosives strapped to yourself Mohamedan?

so much easier than facing the truth, isnt it

 

[JohnPaul]

so much easier than facing the truth, isnt it

The truth is you are defending and somewhat advocating for these people, makes a person wonder.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The truth is you are defending and somewhat advocating for these people, makes a person wonder.

Define what you mean when you say "these people."

 

[bbyrd009]

The truth is you are defending and somewhat advocating for these people, makes a person wonder.

imo epi is making a good point, only in an ignorant way sort of, so the cart/horse argument is prolly better for another thread anyway. In a forum far, far away i guess, too. Im personally not that comfortable around Muslims, but they blow us away for following Christ bro, what can i tell you. We are the bad guys, The Roman Imperialists now. Have a nice life, and best of luck to you ok. I have never seen such faith in anyone in Israel, too i guess

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm curious, Bbyrd, when you say epi is making a good point, but in an ignorant way, do you mean because he doesn't bring the politics of the world into it?

 

[bbyrd009]

Define what you think a totalitarian government is, bbyrd. I ask because I have never defined that by how many military bases they have around the world but rather by the kind of control they operate over the people who live there. I'm not very political so I admit my definition could be wrong.

ah, nevermind imo, just not that important i guess? all passing away anyway, right? As to the inference about Muslim control over the ppl, wadr you have surely been given a perspective there that it benefits someone else to project to you, too, i bet. But no doubt in certain Muslim backwaters--particularly if they have had a treaty with US in the past lol--certain Mullahs have bewitched their flocks, similar to the way all those here who buy Death More Abundantly have been bewitched, sure. (Now see pj, why i do not even have to explain the Treaty thing, right? Yet i am being accused by a treaty-breaker, lol. So be it)

But whatever you do, do not go and see for yourself, dental vaca or no, lest you see and be overwhelmed with sorrow imo.
bc i am not happy at all that we are giving my nation and your country away to Muslims, have already given it away, bc we chose to be zionists i guess, and follow ashkenazi lunatics. Guess it serves Yah though.

id like to thank everyone here for the education, i am leaving the country as soon as i can, now, Yah willing, and i am not coming back. That may take a few years, but i dont think ill come back here until the Papists have been bound, which may not even be in Yah's plans for here as yall may richly deserve them. Lot to learn from Catholics, anyway i guess. Many Catholic forums out here, you might go visit one and see what you see. Best of luck to all

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course there is a world view that is neither Judaic nor Islamic, and that is from the New Testament, which is neither Judaism not Islam.

Much love!

and certainly not what we define as "Christian" now either, huh?
leave the world

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm curious, Bbyrd, when you say epi is making a good point, but in an ignorant way, do you mean because he doesn't bring the politics of the world into it?

strikes me that that was the very first thing he did, sbg, go right to the appearances and the "seen?" but by way of making a valid point imo, so again i dont want to impede him here, where the world is so central?

So iow i retract what i said earlier, and i wholeheartedly agree with epi now, ok

 

[Hidden In Him]

Um . . . that's not Christianity.

I'm speaking of that which defines itself as Christianity. There are many on various Christian forums who identify as "Christian" in their profiles and quote scripture like theologians with seminary degrees behind them, but they speak like fire-breathing dragons when they get crossed by anyone who disagrees with them.

Not only IS this something you see in "Christianity," but it actually manifests itself more through professing Christians than through any single religious group today, quite frankly, including Satanists. Most Satanists just walk about expressing a quiet contempt for those they disagree with. But many Christians manifest a genuine hatred for others, including one another, if not in action then most certainly in the spirit by which they address each other.

Pick any denomination, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, whatever. Give me a little time and I'll show you examples from each of what I am talking about. They think they are "defenders of the faith," and/or "under God's grace," and therefore justified in addressing their fellow believers like they were the lowest life forms on earth. But what's really going on is, instead of being obedient to the Spirit of God, they are being influenced by demonic spirits to do the Devil's bidding rather than use their words and actions to bless others, as the scripture commands.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm speaking of that which defines itself as Christianity. There are many on various Christian forums who identify as "Christian" in their profiles and quote scripture like theologians with seminary degrees behind them, but they speak like fire-breathing dragons when they get crossed by anyone who disagrees with them.

Not only IS this something you see in "Christianity," but it actually manifests itself more through professing Christians than through any single religious group today, quite frankly, including Satanists. Most Satanists just walk about expressing a quiet contempt for those they disagree with. But many Christians manifest a genuine hatred for others, including one another, if not in action then most certainly in the spirit by which they address each other.

Pick any denomination, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, whatever. Give me a little time and I'll show you examples from each of what I am talking about. They think they are "defenders of the faith," and/or "under God's grace," and therefore justified in addressing their fellow believers like they were the lowest life forms on earth. But what's really going on is, instead of being obedient to the Spirit of God, they are being influenced by demonic spirits to do the Devil's bidding rather than use their words and actions to bless others, as the scripture commands.

This is what epi was saying, basically.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is what epi was saying, basically.

Probably so. I don't always have time to read every post, so sometimes I just focus on those who are responding to me : )

 

[Episkopos]

What is not so obvious for many of us is that Jesus was not totalitarian in any way. When His disciples tried going that way Jesus shut them down. He said...

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.


39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.


40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

While we are pre-disposed towards a religious totalitarianism of good and evil (remember the tree)...Jesus is not bound to that tree. He has another tree...the tree of life. So few of us partake of that tree that we only think in the absence of any relation to it. But Jesus speaks to us from beyond that limitation. He is calling us to Himself...away from human self-centered judgments and limitations.

Is 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Mat. 12:20 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory;

Jesus brings a proper judgment to the table. A judgment that includes a divine option. Does Jesus still sound like a totalitarian to you? Do totalitarians act with that much kindness towards others?

 

[Hidden In Him]

What is not so obvious for many of us is that Jesus was not totalitarian in any way. When His disciples tried going that way Jesus shut them down. He said...

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.


39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.


40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

While we are pre-disposed towards a religious totalitarianism of good and evil (remember the tree)...Jesus is not bound to that tree. He has another tree...the tree of life. So few of us partake of that tree that we only think in the absence of any relation to it. But Jesus speaks to us from beyond that limitation. He is calling us to Himself...away from human self-centered judgments and limitations.

Is 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Mat. 12:20 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory;

Jesus brings a proper judgment to the table. A judgment that includes a divine option. Does Jesus still sound like a totalitarian to you? Do totalitarians act with that much kindness towards others?

I'd be interested to know what you believe regarding the coming Messianic kingdom, and to what extent it will or will not be totalitarian as well : )
I know my answer. What would you say?

 

[Episkopos]

I'd be interested to know what you believe regarding the coming Messianic kingdom, and to what extent it will or will not be totalitarian as well : )
I know my answer. What would you say?

In the coming kingdom (1,000 years) Jesus and His Bride will rule with a rod of iron. Sin will no longer be tolerated. Oppression will cease. Transgressions will be shut down and severely so.

Now the level that this "totalitarianism" will exist in personal experience will depend on the deviance from righteousness that exists in that individual. The flesh will still desire it's rebellious ways...in spite of a perfect governance. So then that possibility will also have to be exhausted. We will see the true nature of anything outside God's will for what it is. We will see the necessity of God's love and that each person abide in it, and this in order to stop hurting others and subverting truth.

So people WANT God is be totalitarian right now. At least in theory...sort of...as long as truth doesn't wipe us out personally. We are too self-centered so often. But God is merciful and gives us time....but time to not just get things right, as He wants, but also time for us to commit atrocities, as we want. If we get justice from God too quickly, we could find that many of us are not ready for that judgment. So there is a balance between wanting God to intervene and asking God for more time to get things right before He comes.

There is a time for patience (now) and a time for judgment (later).

Holiness can seem very much like a totalitarian state....where NO sin is allowed. But there is no force in holiness. You simply cease to be there if you transgress holiness.

After the millennial kingdom there is still the new heavens and earth to consider. Everything that offends a perfect peace in holiness will already have been eliminated. Are we ready for that?

 

[Hidden In Him]

In the coming kingdom (1,000 years) Jesus and His Bride will rule with a rod of iron. Sin will no longer be tolerated. Oppression will cease. Transgressions will be shut down and severely so.

Now the level that this "totalitarianism" will exist in personal experience will depend on the deviance from righteousness that exists in that individual. The flesh will still desire it's rebellious ways...in spite of a perfect governance. So then that possibility will also have to be exhausted. We will see the true nature of anything outside God's will for what it is. We will see the necessity of God's love and that each person abide in it, and this in order to stop hurting others and subverting truth.

So people WANT God is be totalitarian right now. At least in theory...sort of...as long as truth doesn't wipe us out personally. We are too self-centered so often. But God is merciful and gives us time....but time to not just get things right, as He wants, but also time for us to commit atrocities, as we want. If we get justice from God too quickly, we could find that many of us are not ready for that judgment. So there is a balance between wanting God to intervene and asking God for more time to get things right before He comes.

There is a time for patience (now) and a time for judgment (later).

Holiness can seem very much like a totalitarian state....where NO sin is allowed. But there is no force in holiness. You simply cease to be there if you transgress holiness.

After the millennial kingdom there is still the new heavens and earth to consider. Everything that offends a perfect peace in holiness will already have been eliminated. Are we ready for that?

Wow. Good answer.

Yeah, I think the difference in the rule we ourselves would establish now is that it would be according to our own personal judgments rather than His, with the trouble being we have a real problem "judging righteous judgments."

 

[marks]

.

Actually not so extreme. In this life you are shut out of the kingdom without the new birth...yes. Jesus is saying that you cannot see and act in the kingdom in this life without the rebirth.

Compare to . . .

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So actually He did not say, "act", He said, "enter". "In this life" does not appear, so to add that in is not correct. And in fact we know it's appointed to man to die and then be judged, not then be given extra chances.

IOW...we can't judge. We are just NOT that all-knowing.

And while of course this is true, that's something different then whether or not people "make" Christianity to be "totalitarianism", and whether or not there is a dualistic and totalitarianistic message in the Bible.

Jesus truly is the only Way to the Father, we have life in Christ and in no other. The simple reality is, it's God's Way, or the highway to hell, as it were.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Holiness can seem very much like a totalitarian state....

What an odd thing to say!